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Ardensfax wrote:

Melissia wrote:You disagree, but I have a fluff citation to prove my point Frag grenades have an area effect in Dark Heresy. Bolters do not. If bolters use a fragmentation effect then it is an immensely weak one which is lesser than a frag grenade given to Guardsmen as standard equipment.

Yes, but that's most likely because the shrapnel is mostly soaked up by the object the round has embedded itself into. (IE: A man called Steve, or perhaps Donald.)

As a result of this, it's very unpleasant for Steve (or Donald) as his insides are now full of shrapnel, but the outside world surely knows nothing about it!

Arden look at this in a different way. I dont know how familiar you are with shotguns in the realworld. But there are two main different types of shells to fire from a shotgun, the first is an actuall shot shell it fires hundreds of little tiny leads pellets, you can be shot with on from fairly close and still live, from a mderate range a good jacket will stop them, the other type of round is a slug, its a solid chunk of metal it causes massive destruction, it cant be negated by a coat. Shrapnel is just not effective against armor, especially the amount of scrapnel you'd get out of a .75 cal round.

Indeed. In fact, given that bolter rounds are actually called "shells" (and have shell casings to boot), comparing them with the slug-type shotgun shells is appropriate.

Especially since shotguns CAN fire .75 cal shells.

2nd edition Wargear book
"Bolt guns are noisy and their effects are visibly devastating. Effective range is not grate, and thus ideally suited to a shock/assault role."
I would assume that they get less and less accuret the more they are in flight.

A lot has changed since second edition.

Actually, I know about Gyrojets from a mention in a Vietnam memoir about a 2nd Lt. who brought his own one to Vietnam. Rubbish up close, but great at medium ranges, and easy to clean...

Melissia wrote:A lot has changed since second edition.

I understand that, back then Orks had them as standered (I played guard and it was evil then for us) I was just pointing out that it is still used for the same thing threw out all of the editions. Not to mention the stats for the bolter haven't changed all that much over time, it has still remained a st 4 rappid fire gun of nastyness

If you have ever read/ seen Hellsing, its like that. The bullets explode and blow massive holes in you.

Interesting to see it's the Yankees who seem best-qualified to get into the *really detailed nuances* behind the science of weapons for killing

Henners91 wrote:Interesting to see it's the Yankees who seem best-qualified to get into the *really detailed nuances* behind the science of weapons for killing

Trying not to stereotype but it's most likely the culture since guns are far more prevelent in the USA which means more access and more infomation n Britain however not so much on both fronts but who needs guns when you have queing

In that case, wouldn't the Swedes know more?

Melissia wrote:In that case, wouldn't the Swedes know more?

Yes they would fair pont.
Hang on don't you mean Switzerland?
You mean the country where evryone is in the militia right?
That's Switzerland not Sweden.

Naw, was thinking of Sweden as I remember that there's very lax gun laws there. Could be wrong-- I'm a science major, not a history/sociology/legal major or whatever.

I always thought of them as being simular to a hollow-point bullet. Except that they would be larger than any hollow point bullet in use today.

Maybe the hollow bit of the bullet is filled with a charge to cause maximum fragmentation on impact

just think of a 3 round burst/or fully automatic M203 grenade shooting hand held weapon

People need to stop saying that its an M203 grenade launcher. A standard bolt round is .75 cal (about 20mm) and an M203 grenade is 40mm so the explosion is not even half as big as a 40mm due to the fact that a bolter round must also carry fuel, fuses/timers, and an armor penetrating head so the actuall explosive is far smaller 20mm (as a very rough guess I'm going to say around 10mm)

i stand corrected

Melissia wrote:In that case, wouldn't the Swedes know more?

But Sweden is an awesome country, with the best quality of life according to the UN (or so I hear)... no country in the world hates Sweden, they haven't had a war since who-knows-when and they eat the most awesome hot dogs ever created at IKEA whilst enjoying the soothing music of ABBA.

Whereas Americans have to admit, they sure love shooting things ;P

Swedes would rather hug a deer/felon/Iraqi.

After reading these 3 pages, what gets me is that you guys/gals think a round has to explode inside someone to make them burst/explode apart. Not so. Shoot someone with a .50 cal M2 Machinegun and you'll be lucky to find all the pieces. Shoot someone with a 25mm chaingun and they turn into a cloud of red mist. A .75 caliber round is about the equivalent the 20mm round used in the M61 Vulcan cannon. You don't need the round to explode, the momentum and force is going to be enough to blow the target to pieces.

What really kills me is that you guys think the shell will be IN the human body long enough to explode. A round that size is just going to pass through your standard human body.

Ironhide: Try shooting them with just a single bullet to make thm explode. The reason a person shot by a chaingun turns into red mist is because there's a large amount fo bullets. A single vulcan shot isn't going to cause someone to explode.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ironhide wrote:What really kills me is that you guys think the shell will be IN the human body long enough to explode. A round that size is just going to pass through your standard human body.

And THIS is just ignorance. We, in modern times, currently have the technology to produce timers that work on mere fractions of a fraction of a second. 40k is set ~31,000 years in the future.

Melissia wrote:Ironhide: Try shooting them with just a single bullet to make thm explode. The reason a person shot by a chaingun turns into red mist is because there's a large amount fo bullets. A single vulcan shot isn't going to cause someone to explode.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ironhide wrote:What really kills me is that you guys think the shell will be IN the human body long enough to explode. A round that size is just going to pass through your standard human body.

And THIS is just ignorance. We, in modern times, currently have the technology to produce timers that work on mere fractions of a fraction of a second. 40k is set ~31,000 years in the future.

Yet they still fight hand-to-hand most of the time?

I never accused Marines of always following doctrines which make tactical sense. THAT is for someone else to argue.

No Melissa. A single 20mm round will do the job. I've witnessed this first hand.

Yes, a single 20mm round will kill a human being. But you stated that it will reduce the human being into red mist. No, it will not. That is a physical impossibility.

You guys know that if any round is going fast enough it will completely obliterate its target, its not about the round being fired as much as how fast its going (a .22 cal bullet travelling at 1,000,000,000 m/s is going to completely destroy any human it hits, right?)

This may be, but I do believe we're referring to the bullet fired by a modern firearm