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Obsidian Raven wrote:

lowmanjason wrote:I've read that too but it was fan fiction i dont know how official it was

its in official fluff.

from the 40k 4th ed rulebook:

"Should irreparable damage occur, the Necron 'phases out'. Body and consciousness are teleported to the nearest tomb complex, where they remain in storage until such time as repairs can be effected or a new form can be forged. such seeming inviolability is not without its limitations, and each act of transference exacerbates any weakness in the Necron's engrams. A necron that has 'died' several times will often be little more than a shambling automaton, with no memory of the creature it once was."

That's kinda what I was thinking about for Warriors. Thus WS/BS/I of 3 or worse, and no running (But they can always fire their weapons regardless of movement or other variables such as going to ground, including whatever heavy weapons they're given as squad support weapons). Add FNP alongside WBB, too.

kill dem stunties wrote:Because of game balance? If they improve necrons in any significant way without addressing either their toughness, save, or double wbb'ing through monos, crons would be ridiculously op

You do realize that Warriors can no longer kill vehicles right off the bat any more, right?

My thoughts,
Lord tiers. Yes. I would love to have more options for lords. I really like the way that they show up in apocolypse with random abilities. Although those are apocolypse formations, I would like toned down versions for regular 40k. Many people run wraithwing or destroyer spam, so how bout a lord that has a few more attacks to run with that wraith wing or one that can shoot at range attached to destroyers. Would it drastically change the army? Not that I know of, but moving a few extra shots around on DP and having the destroyers augmented by the Lord, yea I'd pay a few extra points.

Wraiths, for 41 points I think they should have something. I mean, sure theyre really fast, and always strike at I6 regardless of terrain, but unless you're assualting IG or EQ its just a tar pit squad unless you attach a lord and that changes your 123 pt fast attack to a minimum of 253. Squad size would be a fair adjustement, 5 would be acceptable, but then again, Necrons are 'supposed' to be a shooty army, so should the assualt squads get the revamp? That low model count in the unit really is a downfall when considering WBB, maybe they should be traded to the elite slot and given rending, the flayed ones would go fast attack and gain fleet. Now that may make a little sense.

Flayed ones as troops. I really never field them. Too slow to get there and their number is always too low to make a difference. Giving them dfields and outflanking against an ig player to tag a bassalisk is useful, but I'd rather just shoot with destroyers or a lith or take scarab bases. Oh, one thought, I think the terrifying visage should effect shooting at them under 24". I mean if I saw something coming at me wearing the skins of my comrades I may not have the ballz to shoot. But it could be added that if they pass leadership by so much, they get a righteous zeal and get an extra shot or hit on one better BS. Something to balance it I guess.

To address Melissa's comment on warrior BS. I agree that it is possible to see warriors as lower than BS4. It s why Im a big advocate of having Immortals as an upgrade for a squad. Then they could justify that the more well taken care of immortals would direct the fire. Necrons function on synergy with each other and I dont think it would be to far fetched to think an Immortal would be able to help lead a squad to more success. This also helps with the suvivability of a squad, take one of those lascannon pot shots on the immortal and he can get back up if out of rez range, whereas a warrior could not... even if it makes sense for him to come back only as a warrior, as he was destroyed a little too much to retain his former glory.

Warriors and vehicle killing.
AFAIK, land raiders and walkers are about the toughest for warriors to kill. Reasons being stunned and shaked results are for the most part not cared about, and numerous weapons prevent the stun to death. Other than that, its completely believable to stun out a small transport like a chimera rhino or on a good day a russ. It will take more than equivalent point value of fire, but that s not always a bad thing as they can make up that point sink later. I am not a fan of changing guass to rending. Rt now a warrior squad has a chance of damaging a land raider, change guass to rending, not a chance at all. Necrons do not have enough high strength weapons to justify taking that cut. Our only options are the Ctan's pocket las, a mobile las (heavy d) for 65 points or a direct hit from a lith. Think about how much a las cannon costs in a marine squad... we pay 65 points, same armor save, +1T and WBB is generally negated as theyre just arent enough to have that actually happen? sounds too expensive. Back to my squad upgrade idea, adding a HD to a destroyer squad where it can hide and try to survive a little... now that would be worth it. 15 pts for an upgrade from a 6 4 H3 to a 9 2 H1, that's pretty standard across the board. I mean how many points is a melta and it gets ap1 and 2d6 armor pen on most things.

Well, Im talking about costs... so I will admit there is one thing in the army that is undercosted. Warscythe for the lord. Maybe not though. He is 100pts base, comes with a shooty power weapon. So to break it down some, you figure 80pts for a 3w t5 model, 20 for a shooty power weapon, and ten more to change that out for a WS that has no shooting. so 30 pts in reality that WS, Force weapons cost what 25 ish? so a few extra points and you are very limited on number you can field, sounds ok to me.

IHOP

Some of the arguments here talk about the fluff being directly related to the game. Any army can make that argument and thus make them probably super over-powered. The two things that I'm agreeing with here are that phase-out is a problem and the lack of choice in a necron army. Of course, taking out phase-out completely would probably just have people run a ton of monoliths which some armies have a huge problem taking out. It needs to be reworked though. I'll agree with that. More choice would be a wonderful thing to add to the necrons too. No matter what, I feel like the goal of any game is to get the necrons to phase out and thus cause a victory. So, any game with necrons basically turns into annihilation. Maybe adding more choice to the necron army would possibly change what phasing out would be. Have some variation of phase-out depending on the army type. I don't know, maybe?

Fluff is not directly related to the game, but it is still related.

Well that's the beauty of 40k. If you relate the fluff to the gaming (which I do) then yes, every army can be super-overpowered. But when every army is super-overpowered, there's no such thing as overpowered. Overpowered is now normal.

Two overpowered armies duking it out is the same as two underpowered armies. No advantage is given by the excess power.

the flayed ones would go fast attack and gain fleet. Now that may make a little sense.

i dont knoow about fast attack but i think fleet would be better than move through cover, good idea

They should be as "good" as their points value. If you want super-mega-kill-all robots be prepared to pay the points.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:They should be as "good" as their points value. If you want super-mega-kill-all robots be prepared to pay the points.

I think your kinda missing the point of this thread, its kinda a cross between wishlisting and debating ideas of what the necrons SHOULD be in relation to fluff and competitiveness with the newer armies. Please be a little more specific with any ideas!

Necrons should be Squatted.

They were a lame army for entry-level players: small number unit types, few options, simple to build a list, easy to paint, etc.

The suggestions here follow the likely direction GW would take to make them harmonious with the new codices. That is, make them plague marines with different models.

Blech!

Small number of unit types with few options and a simple build just means they have more room for expansion.

Besides, all third edition codices were like that.

I'm actually a bit worried about something else that I don't really see others talking about much. Lack of mechanization. There are 3 armies in 40K that don't have the option to be mechanized, daemons, Nids, and Necrons. Everyone else has the option of armor for protecting their troops (at least somewhat) from both small arms and ordnance, and for mobility. My two armies are Necrons and Daemons, and I know the daemons can have a bit of an issue against a fully mechanized list, particularly when the ordnance flies. Just too difficult to pop the cans to get the guys out (something necrons share as of now), and no protection from the hail of ordnance, another shared trait. So I'm of the opinion that they need a significant boost.

Possibilities :
1) Instead of, or more hopefully in addition to armor saves, invulnerable saves across the board. Maybe 4+/4++ for warriors, 3+/3++ for immortals, destroyers.

2) WBB - Combine it with a diff version of phase out. When a necron unit is reduced to 25% strength, the player has the option of phasing the unit out, giving up a KP, and having a 'replacement' unit identical to the original at full strength, deepstrike near any res orb, spider, or monolith on the board and functioning at the beginning of their next turn.

Just thoughts for increasing the durability of the army, which seems to be the theme behind them.

As for flayed ones. Sigh, I've heard "Make them troops!" for quite some time. I counter with, 'Make them usefull." Elites, no shooting, meh CC. Deepstrike and infilltrate, well DS is about pointless if they can't assault that round, and can't weather the shooting or CC specialists that are now right in front of them. Infiltrate is nice but not something thats reliable enough that you can depend on it. And terrifying visage. Really needs to be reworked. Completely useless. You have 2 kinds of opponents, those that are decent in CC, and those that aren't. The ones who aren't, you don't need it against them, it doesn't significantly add anything. The ones who are good in CC, it doesn't help against, they tend to have a high enough leadership, or are fearless in some way, so pretty much ignore it. I'd hardly call them Elites, even in 4th they weren't all that good. So I guess troops is fine, but as is, shouldn't be more than 14-15 pts. Now, give them a 3+/4++, and terrifying visage do something useful, like turn off fearless and/or furious charge in opponents, and act as defensive grenades, then I'd say that they were more worth it. Give them rending on top of it, and I'd say you have a case for making them elites again.

utan wrote:Necrons should be Squatted.

They were a lame army for entry-level players: small number unit types, few options, simple to build a list, easy to paint, etc.

The suggestions here follow the likely direction GW would take to make them harmonious with the new codices. That is, make them plague marines with different models.

Blech!

Sounds like someone hate the Monolith triforce.

I am amazed at so many people seeking nerfed Necrons. Currently, they are virtually pointless on the table with 5th Ed. changes. They need more than just a couple of things like Feel No Pain, gauss weapons only having a minus 1 on glancing hits, Stubborn (as they used to really stick around in CC), new units, get SOME options, and increase the numbers in their smaller units (wraiths, etc.) to make them survivable. Slow and Purposeful could work with some units; sort of the whole implacable advance idea. However, their stats are fine as they were always balanced by their initiative, lack of army options, being the only army that auto-loses if people focus solely on your infantry, AND their general lack of AP. People always cursed them as a 'shooty army' until Tau came out.

Why do you think we're wanting to NERF necrons?

When I made my suggestions, I had a decreased price in mind along with it. The endless zombie hordes.

Here's a thought I've had for a while that is both interesting and fits Necron fluff: Since Necron engrams degrade over time, players should be able to field different tiers of Necron Warriors, much like how IG can use conscripts and veterans for their troops. Same models, but different points costs and statlines. So you could take a Warrior Horde army with lots of uber-degraded Warriors with crappy stats, or an elite force of "fresh" Warriors and Immortals with better stats.

Also, new Troops options would be nice. I liked the idea of "assault warriors" that is, standard Warriors that exchange guass flayers for a pistol/CCW combo, Storm Guardian style, with perhaps better Initiative to reflect enhanced close combat programs.

They also could use a dedicated transport of some kind.

FNP is fine too

Also, Lords need more options and more personality. ie Vanilla Lord, Shooty Lord, Support Lord, or Melee Lord

Also, either make guass weapons rending or make Destroyers/Heavy Destroyers more survivable.

with these changes alone, Necrons would have more options allowing for different builds, and could be geared towards different roles without becoming Blood Angel-level OP

Melissia wrote:
When I made my suggestions, I had a decreased price in mind along with it. The endless zombie hordes.

I like this idea, but you have to remember that there are only 6 Troops slots. Other horde armies like IG have managed to get around this with Platoons, Tyranids with Tervigons, and Orks with Boyz Squads. So we're going to need to see an increase in the max squad number for Necrons. They're currently 10 per squad now, right? Either way, I think that Warriors should be put somewhere between the Ork/SM region as a unit. The OP seems to be thinking that these guys are just as good as they were at the beggining, which just honestly is not true. The newer editions such as Pariahs should be better, and some of the more well kept Immortals, but the Warriors aren't as fantastic in the fluff as the OP makes them out to be.

I'm also in favour of replacing the WBB rule with a *better* FNP, rather than a combo of the two. A 3+ FNP, maybe?

Personally I think the Necron Warrior unit needs to basically become two units. The Necrons need more than one troop choice anyways. In the fluff, the necrons are super durable, but often come as a huge unstoppable horde as well. There needs to be a Necron warrior unit priced in the 16-20 point range with stats to match. I think there should also be a weaker, Necron slave/zombie unit priced at around 9-11 points a model. Maybe these are the broken down Necrons who degraded in their tombs, and I think this would play up the "Space Undead" side of their fluff.

I feel that all Necrons should have slow and purposeful, but have ways to deepstrike during the game. Why would Necrons walk when they could just teleport? This would help to make up for their lack of transports.

My idea for WBB and phase out is thus. In each game phase any Necron models lost by a unit are tipped over. If that unit fails a morale test and falls back before the end of the phase, those tipped over models "phase out". If the unit holds, then you get to make your 4+ WBB roll at the end of the phase or remove models. Remove the 25% phase out rule entirely.

Right sorry kurgash.

I did put some thought into how gauss would work better vs vehicles without making it OP (ala rending across the board)

Gauss - Weapons with the "Gauss" special rule gain D3 to armor penetration rolls on a roll of 6 to penetrate. (I.E. they can only rend vehicles)

This way they get a boost against vehicles that doesn't harm troops. Much like they have now.

How about Pariahs as a squad upgrade? They are supposed to be the next wave of necron, and it would be nice to have that phase weapon to get a little more punch in CC.

Also, have pariahs negate psyker spells that are targeted at the squad they are leading on a 4+ similar to a rune priest. It is quite sad that the army that hates the warp so much has no psychic defense. . .

Ok so I think that’s enough for that batch of subject, I think my final opinion on this one is as follows:

1. Necron Lords-

I would like some named lords, and some more wargear

2. Wraiths-

up the squad size and I’m good. No big changes here

3. Wraiths-

power weapons or rending, I can go with or without them… whatever as long as they stay at 41 points or less.

4. Flayed Ones-

I like the idea of giving them “Fleet”! That was a great suggestion. I would take that over “Move Through Cover” any day. And I would like to see a special rule being added that they can charge after Deep Striking. Make both of these changes and I think it justifies them being an Elite. Without them I think they should be a troops choice.
Ok so that about does that. I will add the next subjects very shortly and we can get started on them soon. Also after all the units and discussion has been covered I will compile a summary of all the suggestions and post them so we can all look back one day and see how far off we were from the actual developments!

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:
When I made my suggestions, I had a decreased price in mind along with it. The endless zombie hordes.

I like this idea, but you have to remember that there are only 6 Troops slots.

Yes, so let them take larger numbers of these metal zombies. Necrons can already take up to 20 per squad, so increasing that to 30 doesn't seem so bad with reduced cost on degraded warriors.

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:
When I made my suggestions, I had a decreased price in mind along with it. The endless zombie hordes.

I like this idea, but you have to remember that there are only 6 Troops slots.

Yes, so let them take larger numbers of these metal zombies. Necrons can already take up to 20 per squad, so increasing that to 30 doesn't seem so bad with reduced cost on degraded warriors.

They're really just Shoota Boyz, the Dok just got a little too enthusiastic.

Then 20 and have the degraded warriors have a strengthened WBB roll (after all they don't care if they die) like re-rolls or add another d6 and pick the best.

I'm kidding. Your original idea was good.

Ok so here is the next list.

1. Immortals-

There have been suggestions of making them squad leaders or upgrades to warrior squads somehow. I say no. If anything I would rather see them as some sort of body guard/honor guard for lords. This fits, I think, as they were among the first of the Necrotyr to give up their bodies and such. It just adds a little flavor to them. Leave them elites, but can be taken as a retinue of a lord (up to 5) without a slot from the FOC. Also, if there was any unit in the Necron army that SHOULD have a 2+ save it would be these guys. I think that would be my best change to them above any other. Give them the 2+ SAVE.

2. Pariahs-

These guys are one of my favorite units. Unfortunately they are hard to get to the fight and expensive. So people again have said make them upgrades to warriors as squad leaders, give them invul saves, give them FNP… I DON’T KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH THESE GUYS. In fluff, these guys are awesome. On paper they are pretty good too. Firepower and toughness of the immortals, strength and weapons of the lords, and some neat special rules. Put them on the field though and suddenly every gun on the table that’s not pointed at the monolith or C’tan is pointed at these guys. I guess my best suggestion would be give Deep Strike capability and leave them alone. If they aren’t Necrons they aren’t Necrons. WBB is out but FNP makes sense for these guys though. So give these guys FNP. So FNP or Deep Strike but not both, they are already too pricey.

3. Scarab Swarms-

These little bastards are not to be underestimated! Even in 5th Edition, these things kill Land Raiders dead. But I kinda think the “option” to take disruption fields with them is kinda pointless. They are not nearly as useful without them. Also, I think they should be a troop choice. They even come packaged with the troops choice. In fluff they are the most numerous of Necron units, who ever heard of being overrun but millions of fast attack choices? I say put these guys in the troops category and leave them alone!

4. Tomb Spiders-

LAME… both the model and the rules. Artificer… that just turns my T6 MC to a T3 MC. Take that away and maybe make a “War Spider” or something. Give the model a makeover, add a gauss cannon or something and a BS/WS better than 2 and we might have a viable MC in our army. I guess you can keep the old types for the support role.

So there is the next batch. Let’s get started!

1. Immortals. We'll have to disagree on the squad upgrade option But definately a no as a 5 man retinue for the lord. Really isn't that much of a difference between joining him in a squad and making them a retinue, IMO. 2+ save, eh maybe, I could understand it if I could give the Lord a piece of wargear that would upgrade his save to a 2+ otherwise why would they be able to have a better save than their leader? They are already expensive as is, I wouldnt want to pay more for them I think. I am overall pretty content with this unit, squad size could be higher, but not necessary I think.

2. Pariahs, 'the new breed' 2+ FNP, I d field them allllllllllllllll day Id even take them with their normal save if they had FNP. Makes sense, the model is pretty beefy looking and FNP may allow them to actually get there once in a while. All of a sudden their points value is undercosted if nothing else was changed. I would argue there is more reason to have immortals lead a squad than these guys, but that's arguable I guess. I would say the necron restriction on VOD should be removed, then you could deep strike these guys and make them a viable threat. I'd even settle for a larger LD modifying bubble. I think currently because their initiative is so low, they need some upgrade that either makes them get where they need to be faster, or somethign to make them tougher in H2H, at least at the 36pts they cost. BTW, one of my favorite units too, they may be overcosted currently, but I still field them for fun!

3. Scarabs. I love these guys too! There are lists I take that screw them out of their d-fields because i need those extra few points, but if they were a turbo boosting troop choice, I'd totally field 60 haha. Someone wanted horde necrons? up the squad size on these buggers to 15 or 20 and make them troops.

4. Tomb spyder. He only becomes a T3 if you create two scarab bases. Second cheapest MC in the game IIRC. I think his ballistic skill is too low to justify a Staff of light, but then fluff wise they are only supposed to be caretakers of tomb worlds, so they didnt get the shooty program the rest the army did. Maybe, just maybe before combat they spent a few minutes to upload the new shooty engram? Now they can't start on the table but they get to outflank. All of a sudden this unit is viable and exciting. Or something I just thought of maybe he can use his artificier skill to aid necrons more effectively than just joining another squad on the table, forgo a turn and make a destroyer by absorbing necrons that failed a WBB or instead of taking a WBB on say three or four. Merging a few bits together to create something new, or maybe something random. Takes 4 downed warriors eligible for WBB within six inches, roll a d6 and see what you get. Add some serious variety to it. Of course a 1 you get nothing, 2-3 warrior, 4-5 immortal, 6 Destroyer.

Just some spitballing:

Make certain necrons T4(5), makes them resistant to small arms fire, but still IDed from the bigger weapons.

Give them a cyborg type of Troop Choice (Like Husks from Mass Effect. I.E. people who are just starting to transform into necrons) that are worse than warriors but alot cheaper too.

Move Flayed Ones to Troops (giving them 3 troop choices)

bout all I can suggest without my book.

Actually the point of making the Immortals into a retinue is that a unit with retinue loses independent character until that retinue is destroyed.

Which means they can't be singled out in close combat.

Melissia wrote:Actually the point of making the Immortals into a retinue is that a unit with retinue loses independent character until that retinue is destroyed.

Which means they can't be singled out in close combat.

yea, but I'm in trouble if they are in close combat already. Especially with such a small squad size for a retinue. If i could differently equip the immortals and more than one wound i think it could be viable, but as is, no real bonus as I see it. No bonus to survivability to the group retinue versus squad joining, only to the lord if with a retinue, and I'd rather join him to a larger squad of immortals for WBB opportunities.