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Not my point.

It doesn't matter what the core product is, it will always be chopped at. Tall poppy syndrome through and through.

If Orks were the centre of 40K, the same thing would happen with them.

Who cares if they do or do not have a flaw?

40k is about going beyond the impossible, over the edge and back, making everything and its mother as cool as possible and then asking, "How can we make it even cooler?"

I like Ultramarines because they have a striking and memorable colorscheme that I think looks quite nice (though the same can be said about lots of chapters), they've got some of the most developed and well-written fluff in codexes and novels alike, and they just generally kick ass. It doesn't really bother me that they're GW's poster boys. To me, that's superficial and largely irrelevant.

Plus they've got some of the best named characters in the codex, in my opinion.

I'm not trying to knock the Ultramarines but, they feel real gimmicky to me. Oh they're the knights in shining armor, with no apparent flaws and i think its really easy for a new player to pick ultramrines because they're a pretty basic chapter. Which means their tactics dont lean towards lightning assaults (White Scars) or any other tactic. So the player wouldnt have to learn how to play to the chapters strengths because, the Ultramrines can do anything and be effective. I personally played Ultramarines when i first started and after two years or so i found that i liked close combat so i switched to the a diffrent chapter.

Judging by your signature, I'm guessing that'd be BT?

BT have some of my favorite fluff (if not my favorite tactics, I lean towards shooty armies), but their color scheme bores the living daylights out of me. White on black. Woooo... Almost as boring as Raven Guard - BLACK ON BLACK.

Maybe it's a shallow reason to like or dislike an army, but the colors cheme really does make a difference to me, and the Ultramarines have one of my favorites. That is, as long as we're talking Second Company. Gotta have that gold trim and heraldry.

Yea BT all the way. I like the BT color scheme because it is simple but it does allow for some great customization and fine detailing.

H.B.M.C. wrote:It doesn't matter what the core product is, it will always be chopped at. Tall poppy syndrome through and through.

Just because you are unwilling to believe that other people might have a reason other than this doesn't make it true.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Not my point.

It doesn't matter what the core product is, it will always be chopped at. Tall poppy syndrome through and through.

If Orks were the centre of 40K, the same thing would happen with them.

It's not the only reason, but it's a big factor. If BA were the core, people would hate on BA, but at not as much as UM.

ph34r wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Not my point.

It doesn't matter what the core product is, it will always be chopped at. Tall poppy syndrome through and through.

If Orks were the centre of 40K, the same thing would happen with them.

It's not the only reason, but it's a big factor. If BA were the core, people would hate on BA, but at not as much as UM.

I hate BA way more than Ultramarines.

Do I get a prize?

I don't really hate the Ultramarines or any other loyal chapter. I just have diffrent degrees of like

Linkaroo to a rather large post expressing my veiws on the matter: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/305611.page

Couldn't agree more with H.B.M.C.

It has precedents in fantasy. Paladins have always been the most popular characters for newcomers in D&D. Arthurian chivalric image, untainted heroism. Makes sense for them to be GW's icons, more than Orks!

More adequate posterboys for the tween demographic, who enter the hobby, than the angst-ridden teen demographic, more prone to "depressive" chapters like Blood Angels or Black Templars.

I suggest those curious about why "flawless heroes" are favoured marketing posterboys check out this book, an enlightening read about what the author calls "'Kid Psyche Gaps'" :

http://books.google.ca/books?id=H5J5bPhdVeYC&pg=PA233&lpg=PA233&dq=%2Breview+%2B%22A+Marketer%27s+Guide+to+a+Kid%27s+Heart%22&source=bl&ots=Fyb9GUE8zR&sig=GUcTrdaBovj9BPzgHrYHIOEVp5g&hl=fr&ei=2tg_TP6eMsGAlAfx24ypCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

Also : http://www.media-awareness.ca/english/resources/educational/lessons/elementary/body_image/anatomy_of_cool.cfm

JFizzle51 wrote:I'm not trying to knock the Ultramarines but, they feel real gimmicky to me. Oh they're the knights in shining armor, with no apparent flaws and i think its really easy for a new player to pick ultramrines because they're a pretty basic chapter. Which means their tactics dont lean towards lightning assaults (White Scars) or any other tactic. So the player wouldnt have to learn how to play to the chapters strengths because, the Ultramrines can do anything and be effective. I personally played Ultramarines when i first started and after two years or so i found that i liked close combat so i switched to the a diffrent chapter.

I couldn't agree more. The gimicky nature of the UM is what kills them for me. Fair enough that they are an easy to use starting chapter for new players and GW likes to use them for marketing purposes as a result. However their 1 dimensional fluff about “being the best of the best of the best” and the lack of inherit creativity as a result in comparison to the rest of 40k is a turn off for me.

Melissia wrote:Just because you are unwilling to believe that other people might have a reason other than this doesn't make it true.

I think Sisters work great as a Chamber Militant.

Go.

I am afraid I don't get the "gimmick" that everyone is throwing out as a reason to hate the Ultramarines. All of 40k is basically a gimmick. The Blood Angels are space vampires (and angst filled too), the Space Wolves are space vikings, the Black Templars are space crusader knights, Eldar are space Tolkien elves, Necrons are space undead (with a splash of the machines from Terminator thrown in). The list goes on. Out of all of these gimmicks it is space Romans (i.e. the Ultras) that gets the wrath of the community? What makes that worse than any of the others? I have always found the UM hate fascinating but it seems to, in general, lack any consistency. Can someone clear this up for me? Why is the roman gimmick worse than the others?

Apparently the Ultramarines lack any obvious flaws. I submit that pride is their flaw (and a glaring one it is). For what its worth I will take pride as an interesting flaw any day of the week over angst/ vampirism, being a frat boy (this would be the Space Wolves), or being such a religious fanatic that the only thing I can do competently is hit things (Black Templars).

I will be the first to admit that the Ultramarines are overexposed and that Matt Ward went off the deep end with the Ultramarine fluff. However, this does not mean that they need to be automatically reviled. I know that there are some people who will hate something just because its popular, and that's your prerogative. We should all be aware that if hating the Ultramarines because of their popularity is valid then loving the ultras due to their popularity is also valid.

JFizzle51 wrote:I'm not trying to knock the Ultramarines but, they feel real gimmicky to me. Oh they're the knights in shining armor, with no apparent flaws and i think its really easy for a new player to pick ultramrines because they're a pretty basic chapter. Which means their tactics dont lean towards lightning assaults (White Scars) or any other tactic. So the player wouldnt have to learn how to play to the chapters strengths because, the Ultramrines can do anything and be effective.

Same for my Dark Angels, I lost like 6 games in a row before I got even relativetly good (3 of which were in 1 night). Much better now, though it took practice and hardwork, along with defying some "RULES" of how to build your army (both DA and any army). My friend plays the smurfs though, and well... I feel like he hasn't really been exposed to the necesity of specializations rather than "TACTICAL SQUAD OWNAGE!!!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

andain841 wrote:I am afraid I don't get the "gimmick" that everyone is throwing out as a reason to hate the Ultramarines. All of 40k is basically a gimmick. The Blood Angels are space vampires (and angst filled too), the Space Wolves are space vikings, the Black Templars are space crusader knights, Eldar are space Tolkien elves, Necrons are space undead (with a splash of the machines from Terminator thrown in). The list goes on. Out of all of these gimmicks it is space Romans (i.e. the Ultras) that gets the wrath of the community? What makes that worse than any of the others? I have always found the UM hate fascinating but it seems to, in general, lack any consistency. Can someone clear this up for me? Why is the roman gimmick worse than the others?

Apparently the Ultramarines lack any obvious flaws. I submit that pride is their flaw (and a glaring one it is). For what its worth I will take pride as an interesting flaw any day of the week over angst/ vampirism, being a frat boy (this would be the Space Wolves), or being such a religious fanatic that the only thing I can do competently is hit things (Black Templars).

I will be the first to admit that the Ultramarines are overexposed and that Matt Ward went off the deep end with the Ultramarine fluff. However, this does not mean that they need to be automatically reviled. I know that there are some people who will hate something just because its popular, and that's your prerogative. We should all be aware that if hating the Ultramarines because of their popularity is valid then loving the ultras due to their popularity is also valid.

I'm not bashing them for their fluff (though it can sometimes go overboard *stare at Matt Ward*) but rather for their tactics. I mean c'mon, everyone at my club is ALWAYS bashing my DA for being dress wearing, gay primarchering, emos. So the whole space romans thing is cool, but really could be expanded more I think, and if done so properly could really bring them out of the real of common hate.

JFizzle51 wrote:I'm not trying to knock the Ultramarines but, they feel real gimmicky to me. Oh they're the knights in shining armor, with no apparent flaws

Except that their primarch is a schemer who dodged the worst of the fighting in the heresy to ensure that his legion would be dramatically stronger afterwards enabling him to bully the others into accepting his reforms.

Reforms that broke up their chapters whilst seeing to it that the vast majority of new chapters carry his geneseed and are loyal to him as their patriarch....

Read between the lines, not so noble now. Remember, no-one is nice in 40K.

(before I get flamed for that, it's all a matter of perspective. I'm sure the Ultramarines don't see it that way. I'm fairly sure the Imperial Fists do. How Roberto saw it when he was doing it we may never know. (did none of the primarchs keep diaries or write letters to each other?))

Because no other chapter from other Primarch cannot be the gene-seed from Roboute Guilliman. Other First Founding Chapters, clearly see their own primarch as fault and want to have more of Guilliman behind them. Notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and Raven Guard, these can never be Ultramarines. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards fo the teachings of the great Primarch.

Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Black Templars and their successors, strive to be worthy of Guilliman's legacy and cannot fully attain His favour due to their geneseed being not as pure and golden as his own. Such divergent Chapters play little part in this volume,f or this is the tale of the Ultramarines, and all those who follow their example.

Matt ward is a horrible fluffwriter.

andain841 wrote:I am afraid I don't get the "gimmick" that everyone is throwing out as a reason to hate the Ultramarines. All of 40k is basically a gimmick. We should all be aware that if hating the Ultramarines because of their popularity is valid then loving the ultras due to their popularity is also valid.

"The Ultramarines are a chapter of Space Marines, and GW keeps stuffing them wherever they can, blubbering that they are their default chapter of choice or similar nonsense. They even have a movie being made for them.
Thanks to the GW's PR campaign, lots of new players have raging hard-on on Ultramarines, and have formed a common image of a typical Ultramarine player: ignorant of the rules, new to the hobby, and without any will to paint his minis right.

Ultramarines are considered to be boring by the majority, this to be expected for anything default and forced so hard at that, really. The chapter has received a derogatory nickname 'Smurfs' (Chapter Master Magneus Calgar thus becoming Papa Smurf) for their resemblance of the blue midgets, and is generally referred to in a pejorative manner. "

Thing is that many ultrasmurfs players in my area actually use that nickname and sometimes wear it with pride...

Thorheim wrote:The chapter has received a derogatory nickname 'Smurfs' (Chapter Master Magneus Calgar thus becoming Papa Smurf) for their resemblance of the blue midgets, and is generally referred to in a pejorative manner. "

Blue with white helmets.... You've got to wonder if they thought that through.

god this kills me to do this as i hate the smurfs and their codex but heresy era horus tricked them into a trap set by the word bearers. so they did do something

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:god this kills me to do this as i hate the smurfs and their codex but heresy era horus tricked them into a trap set by the word bearers. so they did do something

Be tricked, LOLZ?

@Thorheim: I disagree with you on your point that the majority of people find the Ultramarines boring. In fact, I would say that a very vocal minority finds them boring and/or flat out hates them. Most players probably don't have a strong opinion of them one way or the other. I think you are absolutely correct about people having a preconceived idea about Ultramarine players being new to the hobby, not knowing the rules etc. but, like most preconceived notions, it's complete rubbish. Playing Ultramarines does not make someone a sub-par opponent or painter and it certainly doesn't make them a new hobbyist.

@everyone: The most common reason that I have seen for people hating the Ultramarines is "well, GW gives them more attention than anyone else so that makes them stupid". I am paraphrasing here but you know the kind argument I am referring to since it comes up all the time. Here's the thing, the above argument is a reason to dislike GW, it is not a reason to dislike the Ultramarines. So my question is this; shouldn't the ire of the Ultramarine haters be directed at GW (the cause of the Ultramarine overexposure) and not at the Ultramarines and the people who play them? Is it in any way fair to impugn someone's skill as a hobbyist and/or their army of choice because you disagree with a decision GW made? My point here is not that people must like the Ultramarines, far from it in fact. There are plenty of valid reasons to dislike the Ultras (the list is too long to go into here). The point I am trying to make, somewhat ineloquently, is that the absolute hatred that some people obviously display for the Ultramarines seems to be unique. I have never seen as much hate directed at any other subject in 40K (at least as it relates to fluff) and I just don't see what it is that drives people into such fits of rage whenever the Ultramarines are mentioned.

braindeadmonkey wrote:

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:god this kills me to do this as i hate the smurfs and their codex but heresy era horus tricked them into a trap set by the word bearers. so they did do something

Be tricked, LOLZ?

Horus also tricked the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard into the Dropsite Massacres but I don't see anyone ripping into them.

andain841 wrote:@everyone: The most common reason that I have seen for people hating the Ultramarines is "well, GW gives them more attention than anyone else so that makes them stupid". I am paraphrasing here but you know the kind argument I am referring to since it comes up all the time. Here's the thing, the above argument is a reason to dislike GW, it is not a reason to dislike the Ultramarines. So my question is this; shouldn't the ire of the Ultramarine haters be directed at GW (the cause of the Ultramarine overexposure) and not at the Ultramarines and the people who play them? Is it in any way fair to impugn someone's skill as a hobbyist and/or their army of choice because you disagree with a decision GW made? My point here is not that people must like the Ultramarines, far from it in fact. There are plenty of valid reasons to dislike the Ultras (the list is too long to go into here). The point I am trying to make, somewhat ineloquently, is that the absolute hatred that some people obviously display for the Ultramarines seems to be unique. I have never seen as much hate directed at any other subject in 40K (at least as it relates to fluff) and I just don't see what it is that drives people into such fits of rage whenever the Ultramarines are mentioned.

Read the fluff I quoted about the Ultramarines. Then you will realize that it isn't just that the UM are all over the place, it's that their fluff is pants on head slowed at times.

Because me and you actually have creativiy, everyone else has none! Doh, Ultrumarines, Lol! dat's like rofl like, orh, tard!

Ultramarines, and they were conviently on the other side of the galaxy

I think Matt Ward currently has a lot to do with the reason why people dislike Ultramarines.

"Durr, ebrywun wunz ta bee an-an-an-an ohtramuhreenz!"

The voices of the lovers and haters are so loud only because they are being shouted in a great silence as 90% of players get on with enjoying their hobby.

Kilkrazy wrote:The voices of the lovers and haters are so loud only because they are being shouted in a great silence as 90% of players get on with enjoying their hobby.

QFW This seals this tread

Kilkrazy wrote:You are bad and abnormal if you dislike seriously slowed fluff in your game.

Well gee, that sure improved the thread, Killkrazy.

The hatred for having such badly-written fluff is a little unwarranted.

I can guarantee you whoever's volunteering to write literally any codex or fluff for a particular chapter already has a massive boner for that chapter and is going to put them on a pedestal.

For example, quoted directly from the GW website's introduction to the Blood Angels:

"The Blood Angels are the noblest and most heroic of all the Space Marine Chapters, a glorious host of super-human warriors that have defended the Imperium of Man for over 10,000 years."

And that's literally the first sentence you read.

It only gets worse from there.