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Jefffar wrote:

Not that I would say no to grenades, a better gun and extra attacks mind you.

I think they should defo have a 4+ save as you can't really go wrong there when they're 16 points, grenades could be an option and maybe a lower S AP Blast option would make sense too as i can see the vespid technology having something like that, They should really have rending too as it says their attacks can cut armour to shreads.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

I think they should defo have a 4+ save as you can't really go wrong there when they're 16 points, grenades could be an option and maybe a lower S AP Blast option would make sense too as i can see the vespid technology having something like that, They should really have rending too as it says their attacks can cut armour to shreads.

4+ isn't necissary when you can move in and out of 4+ cover with impunity. If I had my preference the blaster would be Assault 2 and have an alternate fire mode as a flamer. And grenades, they need grenades.

Jefffar wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

I think they should defo have a 4+ save as you can't really go wrong there when they're 16 points, grenades could be an option and maybe a lower S AP Blast option would make sense too as i can see the vespid technology having something like that, They should really have rending too as it says their attacks can cut armour to shreads.

4+ isn't necissary when you can move in and out of 4+ cover with impunity. If I had my preference the blaster would be Assault 2 and have an alternate fire mode as a flamer. And grenades, they need grenades.

I don't think they should be a unit that relies on cover, they can be too situational at times, sure 25% of the board will be terrain but it means that they will be relying on the cover to shoot at a particular unit, and on your earlier long fang comment then they might also be in cover so it's not a guarantee to kill 2 or 3

Relying on cover may make them situational but it helps keep the cost of what is already an overcosted unit down. A good armour save, a better gun, grenades and an extra attack might give us something that costs the same as a Stealthsuit or more.

Jefffar wrote:Relying on cover may make them situational but it helps keep the cost of what is already an overcosted unit down. A good armour save, a better gun, grenades and an extra attack might give us something that costs the same as a Stealthsuit or more.

It shouldn't you can get a lot better than vespid for less at the moment, just think for an extra 4 points you can get a Grey Knight and a Grey Hunter is Cheaper, I would put 4+ Save Vespid at 16-18 Points with a better gun too, that would make it fair, when you'd compare it to an assault marine, they have worse WS, BS, S and Sv but get a better gun and 1 better I, sounds fair to me.

Jefffar wrote:The Tau require their units to work together. There is no one unit that can do everything. In the case of the Vespid that role is to deliver a coup de GRAS to a unit that was already mauled by Tau shooting.

Deep Strike them into cover on Turn 2 (Position Relay) and have them wait for a target. They should kill 3 or 4 marines shooting (more if you have markerlights unspent) and 2 more on the charge. So don't bite of anything big.

Also might be good for jumping small units of Devastators, Long Fangs and Heavy Weapons Teams in the back field too.

Not that I would say no to grenades, a better gun and extra attacks mind you.

They don't kill two on the charge. Did you read my earlier post? IF they get there at full strength (unlikely, their speed doesn't make up for their squishyness) they average 0.5 kills per round of combat, meaning one full kill on the charge. Assuming they marines aren't in cover, in which case they attack first and you're screwed 2x.

Fact is, crisis suits do it better with plasma wounding on 2+ and being rapid fire.

Re checking my math

On a charge, 10 sting wings and the strain leader have 22 attacks.

1/2 of the attacks will hit, 1/3 of the hits will wound and 1/3 of the wounds will stay after the saves or 1/18 of the attacks will hit home.

22/18 = 1.22 . . . Marines dead after a charge

Still looking at a wipe out of a unit with 4 or 5 marines left. So not bad for attacking a unit that was already mauled or was small to begin with.

Like I said, a clean up unit.

Jefffar wrote:Re checking my math

On a charge, 10 sting wings and the strain leader have 22 attacks.

1/2 of the attacks will hit, 1/3 of the hits will wound and 1/3 of the wounds will stay after the saves or 1/18 of the attacks will hit home.

22/18 = 1.22 . . . Marines dead after a charge

Still looking at a wipe out of a unit with 4 or 5 marines left. So not bad for attacking a unit that was already mauled or was small to begin with.

Like I said, a clean up unit.

To be fair they'll probably kill one of your guys so it'll be a drawn combat and the vespid from there should slowly start dying which is a bit of a waste.

I dunno, tying up a squad of Devastators or Long Fangs for multiple turns isn't such a waste.

Jefffar wrote:I dunno, tying up a squad of Devastators or Long Fangs for multiple turns isn't such a waste.

But, in addition, Vespid may indeed lose combat to long fangs as they will have counter attack, it may hold up the unit but to me Tau don't want to lock units in combat as that stops them from dominating the shooting phase, another reason why i see kroot as a liability, they may keep marines in cc but the marines could easily break out the 2nd turn due to low ld etc and then the marines get to assault again.

You don't use Kroot or Vespid with the intention on having them last very long once they have the opponents attentions, I agree.

The idea is to tie up that whatever it is for a turn or two until you can focus your army on it or to finish off something the rest of your army can't quite eliminate.

I am just going to throw my thoughts out there. Lots of people like to use Crisis Suits to do the Helios drop and toast some squad. This works. I don't know why a full squad of Vespid couldn't do the same. Take a Grey Hunter squad for example since that one guy keeps ranting about how epic they are. Anyway, using the Devilfish off your Pathfinders you have the Vespid drop behind them. If your army did what its supposed to, then his Rhino the Grey Hunters were in is gone. So, 2 Markerlight hits later the Vespid and a Crisis Suit team have killed the Grey Hunters and or seriously crippled them. Your Crisis Suits jump back behind cover. Now your opponent has to kill the Vespid because they are a serious threat to anything of his that isn't a Terminator. If he is killing Vespid he isn't going after the rest of your army because he can't afford to ignore the Vespid.

Just a thought

Reivax26 wrote:I am just going to throw my thoughts out there. Lots of people like to use Crisis Suits to do the Helios drop and toast some squad. This works. I don't know why a full squad of Vespid couldn't do the same. Take a Grey Hunter squad for example since that one guy keeps ranting about how epic they are. Anyway, using the Devilfish off your Pathfinders you have the Vespid drop behind them. If your army did what its supposed to, then his Rhino the Grey Hunters were in is gone. So, 2 Markerlight hits later the Vespid and a Crisis Suit team have killed the Grey Hunters and or seriously crippled them. Your Crisis Suits jump back behind cover. Now your opponent has to kill the Vespid because they are a serious threat to anything of his that isn't a Terminator. If he is killing Vespid he isn't going after the rest of your army because he can't afford to ignore the Vespid.

Just a thought

This means you are spending LOTS of points to make a single unit decent at best, whereas the opponent's unit will cost a lot less than the stuff you mentioned, they will have other units too, y'know