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I use Vespid as an anti-marine unit in my tau army and i currently put them in cover and when the space marines get close, but if they have a land raider it doesn't always work out. Are there any other ways to use them?

To use the Broadsides to take out the Land Raider...but my question is... there are really MEQ's inside rather than Termies?
___________

Vespids have much against them as you can guess.
Their usefulness is entirely based on their speed (through terrain) and their AP3 gun.

Now, the gun has issues with cover, short range, and low output. So using them in a sort of 'counter-shooter' is a great application of what you get in their package.

Essentially, they clean up MEQ who are 'forced' into unfavorable positions (ie out of cover and mauled by other units' shooting).

That said, I think I still would rather have more kroot.
They score, longer range, cheaper.

Anytime there's a unit where the flashy bonus is AP3, it's at the same time to be very cautious and take a second look to see that it is not as great as it seemed.

Powerful gun, but short ranged, lots of cover around.
Their durability is wierd, tougher, but paper armor.
Higher leadership, but only if the Strain Leader isn't sniped out. Their great speed is rolled into the decent effective weapon range, but as a 'counter-shooter' it's not using their speed to maximum effect.

Then, they are not cheap and take a Fast Attack Slot...something that could have been Pathfinders or Pirahna.

I guess one other thing they can do is fly+run into combat as fast as they can vs. non-combat GEQ shooty units like Pathfinders/Rangers/Fire Warriors/Hvy Weapon Squads (IG)/etc.

No. No, they are not.

Generally no, but I have it on good authority that they are more effective the lower your points level (750 or less). 4 Vespids, including a Strainleader, is only 70 points, while a single Helion (Fusion Blaster/Plasma) Crisis suits costs 57. Both are designed for killing MEQs, but point for point the Vespids do it better.

Sanctjud wrote:To use the Broadsides to take out the Land Raider...but my question is... there are really MEQ's inside rather than Termies?
___________

Yes there actually is, my friend collects space woofs and uses his land raider for his Blood Claws and Chaos players use them for Bezerkers, its quite a good tactic for bezerkers actually as they can get into cc aqap

aqap

As quirkiest as possible.

Right, I had forgotten about them. I guess I'm not too concerned with them.
MEQ means non-termy bases and neither fleets so their maximum charge distance is shorter.

But if it's Crusader full of dudes... Vespids are overworked if you don't thin them enough with other elements after their metal box is opened.

Sanctjud wrote:

aqap

As quirkiest as possible.
.

It's just a british way of saying ASAP just replacing 'soon' with 'quick'

anyways do you think i should include them in a 1500 point army, based on the kroot advice you gave me i will use 2 squads of them but i dunno whether to include vespids cos i do like them.

I'd say you should give them a shot. I doubt they'll stick, but everything is worth trying once. Everything.

DarkHound wrote:I'd say you should give them a shot. I doubt they'll stick, but everything is worth trying once. Everything.

true, they have worked for me in past games but in others they get shot to bits, i guess ill have to use them when i know they can do some damage...

Worth a try if you know you'll be fighting a Meq army (i.e. lots of 3+ armour) but I wouldn't use them in an all-comers army.

They aren't as bad as you might believe, skilled rider makes them a pretty interesting unit. The cost is meh.

The strain leader is broken, meaning that you need to take a medium-large squad to make them useful. Why the SL has no buffs besides Ld is beyond me; not even an extra attack? Really?

FoF makes next to no sense on them, as they can't do anything in combat and suck terribly when they try. You either shoot them when they are in range, or they become altogether useless. Maybe once in a blue moon you'll see a lone guardsmen sitting in the mud pissing in his pants, I dunno. Ini 5 doesn't matter when you attack like an Eldar poet.

5 Vespid with an SL is around 100 points, not exactly bad for 6 S5/AP3 shots @ BS3, mounted on JPs. 2 Meq kills on open ground isn't amazing, but it isn't terrible for it's cost.

All of that said, most small arms weaponry would absolutely love to see some vespid on the field, there really aren't many other units that are so ripe for the picking. That 100 points could probably be better spent in another, better way, that is basically the bottom line, and Tau is scraping the bottom of the barrel on that note. Vespid will get scraped by the cheapest guns in your opponents army, and that is just shameful.

The Strain Leader's buff is the he allows the Vespids to use Tau Benefits like Marker lights. If you're going to run Vespids, it's likely they'll only get one shot. So make it count and markerlight up their target to reduce cover/boost BS.

@Wrex:
Fleet... do you know why it makes no sense? Because these guys came out in 4th ed...when fleet meant something to Vespids...

The tau codex is old and therefor too expensive in general. By taking units like vespids you make it harder to play the army and win. Vespids have become worse since fleet has changed in 5th Only take them in a solid army, otherwise it'll be really hard to make them work.

Sanctjud wrote:@Wrex:
Fleet... do you know why it makes no sense? Because these guys came out in 4th ed...when fleet meant something to Vespids...

Wasn't it in 4th it let them run? I'm a child of 5th edition.

4th ed fleet = allowed to run D6 instead of shoot.
There was no 'run' rule in 4th ed.
Yea, it was unique to the 'really' fast units.
Now, the only use is if you are desprate for a tarpit and have nothing else but lady luck.

i think ill lay off them for now

Sanctjud wrote:4th ed fleet = allowed to run D6 instead of shoot.
There was no 'run' rule in 4th ed.
Yea, it was unique to the 'really' fast units.
Now, the only use is if you are desprate for a tarpit and have nothing else but lady luck.

I'm also stuck being a semi-noob, 5th ed. is mah home.

Vespid are not great (also not terrible, but Tau definitely have better things to spend the points on) from what I have seen, and the models are ugly as hell IMO.

Skilled rider is a pretty neat power to have, but Vespid are just so damn fragile.

Yea as per the general concensus you only wanna take em when you're playing small points against MEQs or tougher
however really I think the problem with them is they cost more than storm troopers with worse abilities (as everyone has noted, the whole 4th ed designed fleet sucks in 5th for them)
To be honest tho I think it's easy to get bogged down by the hating, especially on general concensus forums like this, so If you want take em, I personally have found they are a suitable substitute for kroot (since lets face it, against MEQs they both do about the same) against Spehss mehreeens If you can convince yourself there's something worth while in them (as opposed to going in thinking, hey they suck but they has AP3...)

I think vespids can be worth it, with their AP3

frarlkanz wrote:I think vespids can be worth it, with their AP3

But they only have a 5+ inv so they can take out 3 or 4 marines but they'll just die to return fire, they should have a 4+ IMO

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

frarlkanz wrote:I think vespids can be worth it, with their AP3

But they only have a 5+ inv so they can take out 3 or 4 marines but they'll just die to return fire, they should have a 4+ IMO

5+ inv? It is just a 5 up normal save. I suspect that will be getting changed if a new codex gets released.

barnowl wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

frarlkanz wrote:I think vespids can be worth it, with their AP3

But they only have a 5+ inv so they can take out 3 or 4 marines but they'll just die to return fire, they should have a 4+ IMO

5+ inv? It is just a 5 up normal save. I suspect that will be getting changed if a new codex gets released.

calm down that's what i meant it was just a spelling mistake, hence the second part of he sentance

Vespid work well to finish off MEQ stuff so your battlesuits don't have to waste shots.

With 2 units of pathfinders on the field, static markerlights are asking to be killed. If you add a unit of vespid to deal with hot spots like drop podded marines or transport guys you forced to walk, it gives the tau speed where they have none.

While you're battlesuits are jumping around dealing with problem targets, you don't want to have to redirect too much fire to deal with 10 or less marines. With MSU being all over the place, this tends to be 5 marines or so.

Combo this with a few markerlights still floating around the field, and so long as you get 3 hits on the unit, you should turn the MEQ into toast.

Battlesuits are expensive if you are running plasma rifles, and these should really be trained on TEQ or whatever the other guns are shooting at. Tau lack ap 3 weapons and vespid are really the only solution. In a game full of marines, your vespid, if used well, will save you.

For all their suckitude, Vespids have one thing going for them: inexperienced Marine players sometimes get scared of them "omg they have AP3 basic gun which will totally kill my otherwise invulnerable Marines" and then do all kind of silliness to either stay away from the awesome threat they represent, or dedicate disproportionate resources to kill them. When in cover, they can prove surprisingly resilient (Strain leader is LD9 so they don't run that easily).

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:To use the Broadsides to take out the Land Raider...but my question is... there are really MEQ's inside rather than Termies?
___________

Yes there actually is, my friend collects space woofs and uses his land raider for his Blood Claws and Chaos players use them for Bezerkers, its quite a good tactic for bezerkers actually as they can get into cc aqap

YES. YES, EMPEROR BE PRAISED, YES.

Bear in mind this thread is yonks old, but thanks for your concern

Vespid have an Ap3 gun. Great. The problem with them is that said gun has a terribly short range, so to make any use of it they are going to have to get in close. So you get in close with your vespid and shoot the guns, they aren't going to kill the entire squad unless they are just cleaning up (quite a hefty amount of points for a unit that is supposed to mop up weakened squads), so the squad that they previously shot at is going to shoot at them, and then charge them and kill them. Not great when you consider that they cost quite a few points. Yes, maybe they have a psychological effect against inexperienced player, but if you big up a unit enough anything will.

If anyone would like to explain how vespid could be in any way worth it, then I'd quite like to here it, maybe I'll change my mind. But as I currently see it, no way.

EDIT:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:Bear in mind this thread is yonks old, but thanks for your concern

That be true, I hadn't spotted myself.

I like vespids, but they are horribly situational and very overpriced. For them to be truly effective you need to take a large squad, unfortunately that chews up points and makes them harder to hide and maneuver, etc. The other problem is that if you're not playing marines, than you are basically wasting your points as there are other units that are more effective at taking on non-meq units than they are, and if you are playing against a horde army then the unit is basically wasted as they aren't going to do much to help you out against a horde of ork boyz or footguad, etc. The biggest issue is their competition with Pathfinders (i.e. cheap markerlights).

I have theoryhammered a list which I call the "trapnest". The idea is that you take a bunch of 20 man kroot units (3 is minimum, 4 is more optimal) and infiltrate them onto the board into cover in a "ring" formation (i.e. a circular formation that is hollow/empty in the center), and then you take the maximum amount of vespids you are allowed (33 including strainleaders). Your markerlights will have to come from elsewhere in the army (markerdrones most likely, I advocate a stealth markerlight team, though its horribly expensive, but so is the entire concept of this list lol, would never do it at less than 2500 pts). Anyway, the idea of the list is that you fly the vespids into the center of the kroot formations, and use them to provide you with both supporting fire and bubble wrap/charge protection.

The typical turn once your vespids have 'nested' will look like this:

1. Move kroot to create clear LOS from vespids to target
2. Fire vespids at target
3. Run kroot back into bubblewrap formation (if necessary) or mop up remnants

Having multiple nests allows you to reposition your units more effectively to counter your opponents attempts to outmaneuver your force. Of course the biggest problem with all this is fitting all the other required components of the army in (markerlights, railguns, etc.), and it is considerably less useful against other armies (though you can still put out a metric feth ton of shots), and I'm not sure anyone really plays MEQ lists these days that have that many marines to warrant something like this.

chaos0xomega wrote:The typical turn once your vespids have 'nested' will look like this:

1. Move kroot to create clear LOS from vespids to target
2. Fire vespids at target
3. Run kroot back into bubblewrap formation (if necessary) or mop up remnants

I though that you had to do all run moves in the shooting phase but before any units had shot? I could be wrong on this though.