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Rampage wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:The typical turn once your vespids have 'nested' will look like this:

1. Move kroot to create clear LOS from vespids to target
2. Fire vespids at target
3. Run kroot back into bubblewrap formation (if necessary) or mop up remnants

I though that you had to do all run moves in the shooting phase but before any units had shot? I could be wrong on this though.

Don't see any rule that dictates this. Move-shoot-run kroot shields seem like they would be effective

Personally, I've seen Vespids work out pretty well, but I think it is one of those units that takes some finesse and experience to use correctly.

elrabin wrote:

Rampage wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:The typical turn once your vespids have 'nested' will look like this:

1. Move kroot to create clear LOS from vespids to target
2. Fire vespids at target
3. Run kroot back into bubblewrap formation (if necessary) or mop up remnants

I though that you had to do all run moves in the shooting phase but before any units had shot? I could be wrong on this though.

Don't see any rule that dictates this. Move-shoot-run kroot shields seem like they would be effective

Ok, must be a gaming group thing then. Will check my rulebook when I can be bothered to move all of the Space Wolves off the desk that I keep it in . Seems decent, still not sure about it with the amount of points that you're sinking into that though, and of course a low roll to run will cause you big issues.

Not really, if you're intelligent with your positioning and movement you can conceivably open up a proper fire line and then close it up again using only 1" of movement. Since you are in a ring formation, and are allowed 2" between models for coherency you essentially have a 4" "window" that you can exploit. With 1" of movement you push the two models at the edge of your window away from each other to create that opening, the two models no longer have coherency to one another, but they do to the rest of the unit (circular shape) so that is a non-issue. The vespids fire, and then if you only have 1" of movement to re-close you simply put the two edges of the window back to their original formation. The kroot will still provide cover to the vespids (and technically the vespids will do the same for the kroot depending on the exact positioning of the units relative eachother and relative the enemy). Additionally, the 2" gap isnt enough to allow an opponent to declare a charge against the vespids, as they would not be able to move the first mini into base to base without first coming within 1" of a a mini that they aren't declaring the assault against. Instead your opponent would have to assault the kroot unit and get creative in order to multicharge.

chaos0xomega wrote:Not really, if you're intelligent with your positioning and movement you can conceivably open up a proper fire line and then close it up again using only 1" of movement. Since you are in a ring formation, and are allowed 2" between models for coherency you essentially have a 4" "window" that you can exploit. With 1" of movement you push the two models at the edge of your window away from each other to create that opening, the two models no longer have coherency to one another, but they do to the rest of the unit (circular shape) so that is a non-issue. The vespids fire, and then if you only have 1" of movement to re-close you simply put the two edges of the window back to their original formation. The kroot will still provide cover to the vespids (and technically the vespids will do the same for the kroot depending on the exact positioning of the units relative eachother and relative the enemy). Additionally, the 2" gap isnt enough to allow an opponent to declare a charge against the vespids, as they would not be able to move the first mini into base to base without first coming within 1" of a a mini that they aren't declaring the assault against. Instead your opponent would have to assault the kroot unit and get creative in order to multicharge.

Ah ok, good point. I still don't think that Vespid are an efficient use of points but I can see how that works now. Thanks.

Rampage wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Not really, if you're intelligent with your positioning and movement you can conceivably open up a proper fire line and then close it up again using only 1" of movement. Since you are in a ring formation, and are allowed 2" between models for coherency you essentially have a 4" "window" that you can exploit. With 1" of movement you push the two models at the edge of your window away from each other to create that opening, the two models no longer have coherency to one another, but they do to the rest of the unit (circular shape) so that is a non-issue. The vespids fire, and then if you only have 1" of movement to re-close you simply put the two edges of the window back to their original formation. The kroot will still provide cover to the vespids (and technically the vespids will do the same for the kroot depending on the exact positioning of the units relative eachother and relative the enemy). Additionally, the 2" gap isnt enough to allow an opponent to declare a charge against the vespids, as they would not be able to move the first mini into base to base without first coming within 1" of a a mini that they aren't declaring the assault against. Instead your opponent would have to assault the kroot unit and get creative in order to multicharge.

Ah ok, good point. I still don't think that Vespid are an efficient use of points but I can see how that works now. Thanks.

QFT, 16 Points can get you so much more in 5th Edition, like a space wolf, for example...

Vespids are NEVER worth it

I like the models.

Vespid are basically slightly worse plasma-rifle-equipped Crisis Suits in terms of combat role and usage. They're worth taking if you've filled your Elite slots, don't want to pay $75 for another full Crisis team when you could pay $35 for a Vespid box instead, or think the models look cool and aren't planning on entering a tournament with the army; I wouldn't advise taking them competitively, but in a friendly/pick-up game they're not bad at all.

Vespid are terrible.

They are bad in two unforgivable ways...

1) Math wise they can't average out anything remotely close to their point values.
2) Strategy wise they can't overcome severe limitations in 5th Edition.

Take more Battlesuits.

I hate vespids. They will lose in a shootout against marines, they will lose in assault. They cost more, they are less durable. They are also short ranged, reliant on cover-less marines, and actually, oddly specilized at attacking this one unit.

Think about it. To get their points back, they have to kill 1 1/3 tac squads, but they can't beat even one. In assault they crumple for obvious reason. Shooting, they lose because the marines bolters have more range, more VoF, can also penetrate vespid armour...plus the marines have Special weapons. The flamer can account for 3, as can the missiles launcher...per turn.

AND THE TAC SQUAD IS CHEAPER.

And scoring. This get worse for the vespids with cover involved.

THEY ARE BAD.

Oh and the marines have better accuracy.

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:I hate vespids. They will lose in a shootout against marines, they will lose in assault. They cost more, they are less durable. They are also short ranged, reliant on cover-less marines, and actually, oddly specilized at attacking this one unit.

Think about it. To get their points back, they have to kill 1 1/3 tac squads, but they can't beat even one. In assault they crumple for obvious reason. Shooting, they lose because the marines bolters have more range, more VoF, can also penetrate vespid armour...plus the marines have Special weapons. The flamer can account for 3, as can the missiles launcher...per turn.

AND THE TAC SQUAD IS CHEAPER.

And scoring. This get worse for the vespids with cover involved.

THEY ARE BAD.

Oh and the marines have better accuracy.

Truth x 10

Lies x100, my vespids have done wonders against marines. You thin out the target with shooting, usually only 1-2 models left, and you assault the remainder. I've never NOT beaten marines in close combat with Vespids... In fact, fighting marines is the only thing that my vespids seem to do reliably well, as soon as I face any other army they usually get plastered off the table within the first two turns before they have an opportunity to do anything at all, but (somehow) against marines, they are usually still on the table at game end and have often times made their points back several times.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Rampage wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Not really, if you're intelligent with your positioning and movement you can conceivably open up a proper fire line and then close it up again using only 1" of movement. Since you are in a ring formation, and are allowed 2" between models for coherency you essentially have a 4" "window" that you can exploit. With 1" of movement you push the two models at the edge of your window away from each other to create that opening, the two models no longer have coherency to one another, but they do to the rest of the unit (circular shape) so that is a non-issue. The vespids fire, and then if you only have 1" of movement to re-close you simply put the two edges of the window back to their original formation. The kroot will still provide cover to the vespids (and technically the vespids will do the same for the kroot depending on the exact positioning of the units relative eachother and relative the enemy). Additionally, the 2" gap isnt enough to allow an opponent to declare a charge against the vespids, as they would not be able to move the first mini into base to base without first coming within 1" of a a mini that they aren't declaring the assault against. Instead your opponent would have to assault the kroot unit and get creative in order to multicharge.

Ah ok, good point. I still don't think that Vespid are an efficient use of points but I can see how that works now. Thanks.

QFT, 16 Points can get you so much more in 5th Edition, like a space wolf, for example...

better, space wolves can essentially give you a space marine that also has acute senses, counter attack and an additional close combat weapon, and still leave you with a point to spare from that.

I like how this thread is fully of people saying they are overpriced, when the entire tau codex is overpriced, except for the price of disruption pods.

If you know how to use a unit well, it preforms well. Jumping vespid into terrain for a cover save while blasting a few MEQs or even monsterous creatures (my vespid enjoy jumping towards stuff like tervigons and blowing them apart) and then sitting back and watching your opponent go OMGZ and shoot the vespid while everything else you have isn't fired at is a wondrous thing.

juraigamer wrote:I like how this thread is fully of people saying they are overpriced, when the entire tau codex is overpriced, except for the price of disruption pods.

If you know how to use a unit well, it preforms well. Jumping vespid into terrain for a cover save while blasting a few MEQs or even monsterous creatures (my vespid enjoy jumping towards stuff like tervigons and blowing them apart) and then sitting back and watching your opponent go OMGZ and shoot the vespid while everything else you have isn't fired at is a wondrous thing.

I'd like to know how Vespid Blow a Tervigon apart

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

juraigamer wrote:I like how this thread is fully of people saying they are overpriced, when the entire tau codex is overpriced, except for the price of disruption pods.

If you know how to use a unit well, it preforms well. Jumping vespid into terrain for a cover save while blasting a few MEQs or even monsterous creatures (my vespid enjoy jumping towards stuff like tervigons and blowing them apart) and then sitting back and watching your opponent go OMGZ and shoot the vespid while everything else you have isn't fired at is a wondrous thing.

I'd like to know how Vespid Blow a Tervigon apart

Certainly. Vespid see tervigon within firing range, they jump towards it and after two markerlights hits they all shoot at BS 5.

So you have around 10 str 5 ap 3 shots that go through. 1/3 of those should wound. tervi is monsterous creature, so no cover unless obscured, so three wounds straight on average, though your dice may vary. Sprinkle in the fact that you're tau, so you can and have been shooting it with other stuff all game, any MC can be finished off by vespid.

I do this all the time with my vespid. They kill more MC's than the rest of my army it seems. Seeker missiles help as well.

If you're only thinking in GK terms, you're losing. Tau are about synergy.

juraigamer wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

juraigamer wrote:I like how this thread is fully of people saying they are overpriced, when the entire tau codex is overpriced, except for the price of disruption pods.

If you know how to use a unit well, it preforms well. Jumping vespid into terrain for a cover save while blasting a few MEQs or even monsterous creatures (my vespid enjoy jumping towards stuff like tervigons and blowing them apart) and then sitting back and watching your opponent go OMGZ and shoot the vespid while everything else you have isn't fired at is a wondrous thing.

I'd like to know how Vespid Blow a Tervigon apart

Certainly. Vespid see tervigon within firing range, they jump towards it and after two markerlights hits they all shoot at BS 5.

So you have around 10 str 5 ap 3 shots that go through. 1/3 of those should wound. tervi is monsterous creature, so no cover unless obscured, so three wounds straight on average, though your dice may vary. Sprinkle in the fact that you're tau, so you can and have been shooting it with other stuff all game, any MC can be finished off by vespid.

I do this all the time with my vespid. They kill more MC's than the rest of my army it seems. Seeker missiles help as well.

If you're only thinking in GK terms, you're losing. Tau are about synergy.

I would like to give you a game with tyranids and see how far those vespid really get...

They will be shot themselves y'know, it won't be easy to get to a tervigon and i doubt it will have taken 4 wounds before these guys fire

Tyranids are going to come towards the tau line. Any tau player worth his salt is going to kite nids around as long as possible, and no nid player is going to shoot the vespid when he could shoot the battlesuits, broadsides or pathfinders. The vespid will do their job, and they do it well.

If the nids are keeping in the back for whatever reason, then tau don't mind. Shooting war vs tau never works unless you are longfang spam or guard. Should the need arise, the vespid can always deep strike, using the pathfinder fishes for added safety.

If you can show me an all comers list were you force the tau to come to you, I might surrender the point that vespid can't kill a nid MC, at least in the hands of a beginner.

chaos0xomega wrote:Lies x100, my vespids have done wonders against marines. You thin out the target with shooting, usually only 1-2 models left, and you assault the remainder. I've never NOT beaten marines in close combat with Vespids... In fact, fighting marines is the only thing that my vespids seem to do reliably well, as soon as I face any other army they usually get plastered off the table within the first two turns before they have an opportunity to do anything at all, but (somehow) against marines, they are usually still on the table at game end and have often times made their points back several times.

Even with enough markerlights to get BS5 and no cover save...the vespid average 5-6 kills, or slightly less. A marine unit shooting averages 3 flamer kills, 3 ML kills, and with bolter fire it's

16x0.66x0.5 so about 6 more kills. Now we're at 11 kills average-the maximum size of a vespid unit. Marines demolish them in assault, and have grenades, and are CHEAPER...They also have 24" guns, are scoring...

They are not only the worst unit in the codex, they are THE WORST UNIT. I'd be hard pressed to find a worse unit in the game (I don't mean giving them slowed upgrades, I mean the unit itself in all it's potential)

If their guns were assault two, their save was four plus and their profile was S4 A2, they MIGHT be worth taking at this price. I'd have to play test it.

Vespids have speed therefore they dictate range. If you're getting into flamer range then you have a serious problem... especially if you're getting into flamer range against a static unit (which is a requirement if im also going to be hit by a missile launcher). The only thing you should be worried about really is the flamer, you should otherwise be claiming cover saves against everything else, which is as good as a 4+ armor save in my book.

I also don't know what you mean by "Marines demolish them in assault" I mean, it can be bloody and brutal at times, but as long as its not an assault/cc specialist squad, you should be able to put the pain down on the marines if you get the charge. Hell, my Strain Leader has been known to go 1-on-1 with Space Marine HQ choices before... and win...

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Lies x100, my vespids have done wonders against marines. You thin out the target with shooting, usually only 1-2 models left, and you assault the remainder. I've never NOT beaten marines in close combat with Vespids... In fact, fighting marines is the only thing that my vespids seem to do reliably well, as soon as I face any other army they usually get plastered off the table within the first two turns before they have an opportunity to do anything at all, but (somehow) against marines, they are usually still on the table at game end and have often times made their points back several times.

Even with enough markerlights to get BS5 and no cover save...the vespid average 5-6 kills, or slightly less. A marine unit shooting averages 3 flamer kills, 3 ML kills, and with bolter fire it's

16x0.66x0.5 so about 6 more kills. Now we're at 11 kills average-the maximum size of a vespid unit. Marines demolish them in assault, and have grenades, and are CHEAPER...They also have 24" guns, are scoring...

They are not only the worst unit in the codex, they are THE WORST UNIT. I'd be hard pressed to find a worse unit in the game (I don't mean giving them slowed upgrades, I mean the unit itself in all it's potential)

If their guns were assault two, their save was four plus and their profile was S4 A2, they MIGHT be worth taking at this price. I'd have to play test it.

Aun'va the space pope, Pyrovores, Old one eye, and Chaos spawn are all worse than the Vesp-Oh dear sweet emprah nooGLARBARGLRAWR.

juraigamer wrote:broadsides or pathfinders. The vespid will do their job, and they do it well.

If the nids are keeping in the back for whatever reason, then tau don't mind. Shooting war vs tau never works unless you are longfang spam or guard.

I can see you have little or no knowledge of the 5E Game

Dark Eldar, Blood Angels and even Eldar can outshoot Tau with ease, You say that Vespid stingwings can kill a MC with ease, but you're then saying "Well I need a pathfinder squad and the rest of my army too"

They rely on the rest of the army, they are not a good enough unit to take in themselves unlike Battlesuits or Hammerheads and in the game as we know Nids would have no problem shooting them with fleshborers, the tervigon could then make them move further forward, or even assault them with hormagaunts, or spawn more termagaunts.

I really need to read up a battle report of you against this tyranid player, play him again, and show me what happened, and then i can evaluate whether vespids are worth it. Myself and the majority of the people here will tell you they aren't, and whilst any unit can become good if the skill of the player is right, other units are even better.

chaos0xomega wrote:Vespids have speed therefore they dictate range. If you're getting into flamer range then you have a serious problem... especially if you're getting into flamer range against a static unit (which is a requirement if im also going to be hit by a missile launcher). The only thing you should be worried about really is the flamer, you should otherwise be claiming cover saves against everything else, which is as good as a 4+ armor save in my book.

I also don't know what you mean by "Marines demolish them in assault" I mean, it can be bloody and brutal at times, but as long as its not an assault/cc specialist squad, you should be able to put the pain down on the marines if you get the charge. Hell, my Strain Leader has been known to go 1-on-1 with Space Marine HQ choices before... and win...

You can't say they are good because they have cover saves, and not include cover saves for the marines. And for the vespid to be able to shoot, they have to be within rapid fire range, putting them at a disadvantage in number of shots, plus they have worse accuracy.

And your strain leader went against an HQ and won...this game DOES involve dice, statistically speaking, random stuff does happen...like FW occasionally killing terminators. Doesn't mean they're better than termies in assault. Let's look at this with statistics:

both units have 11 attacks total.

Vespid are I5, so they attack first.

11x0.5x0.33x0.33=0.59895
So one marine dead (rounding up), 10 attack, two are the PF sarge.

normals:

8x0.66x0.5x0.66=1.7424

Sarge:

2x0.66x0.83=1.1. About three wounds to half a wound. 42% chance vespid fail their leadership if they manage the one casualty, 50% if they don't. from there, there's a 33% chance of the entire unit being killed in a sweeping advance. Also, THEY ARE CHEAPER.

They do literally everything better than vespid. Also, with vespid, their range, even including their movement, does not exceed that of marines. Also, the ML has 48" range IIRC.

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Vespids have speed therefore they dictate range. If you're getting into flamer range then you have a serious problem... especially if you're getting into flamer range against a static unit (which is a requirement if im also going to be hit by a missile launcher). The only thing you should be worried about really is the flamer, you should otherwise be claiming cover saves against everything else, which is as good as a 4+ armor save in my book.

I also don't know what you mean by "Marines demolish them in assault" I mean, it can be bloody and brutal at times, but as long as its not an assault/cc specialist squad, you should be able to put the pain down on the marines if you get the charge. Hell, my Strain Leader has been known to go 1-on-1 with Space Marine HQ choices before... and win...

You can't say they are good because they have cover saves, and not include cover saves for the marines. And for the vespid to be able to shoot, they have to be within rapid fire range, putting them at a disadvantage in number of shots, plus they have worse accuracy.

And your strain leader went against an HQ and won...this game DOES involve dice, statistically speaking, random stuff does happen...like FW occasionally killing terminators. Doesn't mean they're better than termies in assault. Let's look at this with statistics:

both units have 11 attacks total.

Vespid are I5, so they attack first.

11x0.5x0.33x0.33=0.59895
So one marine dead (rounding up), 10 attack, two are the PF sarge.

normals:

8x0.66x0.5x0.66=1.7424

Sarge:

2x0.66x0.83=1.1. About three wounds to half a wound. 42% chance vespid fail their leadership if they manage the one casualty, 50% if they don't. from there, there's a 33% chance of the entire unit being killed in a sweeping advance. Also, THEY ARE CHEAPER.

They do literally everything better than vespid. Also, with vespid, their range, even including their movement, does not exceed that of marines. Also, the ML has 48" range IIRC.

Je suis d'accord avec cet opinion

I don't see how you can go wrong having cute little bumble bees in your army.

Kevlar wrote:I don't see how you can go wrong having cute little bumble bees in your army.

And then you look at their evil, evil eyes and realize they're not cute. Nothing in wh40k is cute, except gretchin, in a weird kinda way.

juraigamer wrote:Tyranids are going to come towards the tau line. Any tau player worth his salt is going to kite nids around as long as possible, and no nid player is going to shoot the vespid when he could shoot the battlesuits, broadsides or pathfinders. The vespid will do their job, and they do it well.

If the nids are keeping in the back for whatever reason, then tau don't mind. Shooting war vs tau never works unless you are longfang spam or guard. Should the need arise, the vespid can always deep strike, using the pathfinder fishes for added safety.

If you can show me an all comers list were you force the tau to come to you, I might surrender the point that vespid can't kill a nid MC, at least in the hands of a beginner.

If Vespid were like Dark Eldar scourges I would agree. But even then, DE scourges catch a lot of flak for not being great. Honestly, thats what Vespid are, bad versions of scourges.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

juraigamer wrote:Tyranids are going to come towards the tau line. Any tau player worth his salt is going to kite nids around as long as possible, and no nid player is going to shoot the vespid when he could shoot the battlesuits, broadsides or pathfinders. The vespid will do their job, and they do it well.

If the nids are keeping in the back for whatever reason, then tau don't mind. Shooting war vs tau never works unless you are longfang spam or guard. Should the need arise, the vespid can always deep strike, using the pathfinder fishes for added safety.

If you can show me an all comers list were you force the tau to come to you, I might surrender the point that vespid can't kill a nid MC, at least in the hands of a beginner.

If Vespid were like Dark Eldar scourges I would agree. But even then, DE scourges catch a lot of flak for not being great. Honestly, thats what Vespid are, bad versions of scourges.

It's easy to force them to come to you. Leave a bunch of broadsides in the centre of your deployment zone without any protection. No army can afford to let them shoot, and most armies can't shoot them to death without wasting an enormous amount of time with those 4+ drones and 2+ saves. They will go after them, and that's when the crisis suits pinch from the sides.

The Tau require their units to work together. There is no one unit that can do everything. In the case of the Vespid that role is to deliver a coup de GRAS to a unit that was already mauled by Tau shooting.

Deep Strike them into cover on Turn 2 (Position Relay) and have them wait for a target. They should kill 3 or 4 marines shooting (more if you have markerlights unspent) and 2 more on the charge. So don't bite of anything big.

Also might be good for jumping small units of Devastators, Long Fangs and Heavy Weapons Teams in the back field too.

Not that I would say no to grenades, a better gun and extra attacks mind you.