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Ah we get to a point, Lycaeus

I'd argue that if your paying the points for the CC weaponry you gave your officer squad, you'll want to use it

There you have misunderstood me a little. I dont WANT to use it, I assume, I will be FORCED to use it. That is part of my backup strategy. Somehow a murphys law-thinking.

My thinking is, I always get into the infight, so I have to be prepared for the close combat possibility. If it doesnt occur, I have won the game anyways against most opponents.

Maybe I am a bit too cautious there, but experience taught me to have some backup plans if you battleplan falls together because of some unexpected things.

And also we have to clarify something about ranges and effective ranges.

I think using the plasmagun constantly on 24" will not result in any decisive damage. First you must be stationary and you can therefore be outmanoeuvred most likely. The decisive damage is done having local superiority in 12" to the target you want to kill. and 12" is the magical distance of rapid fire vs. close combat. And there we have the problem: Shooting onto an opponent out of the chimera, not killing all of them and then get swept in close combat by the remnants (even worse if these remnants have a meltagun handy and open the chim and walk through your men....
That is really annoying. So the squads who have to disembark need defensive equipment to fight off and kill small units.

But indeed a medic advisor would be great to save the special weapon and get one more model...

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Your makng the arguement that small Guard squads need to be protected and utilised properly in order to be effective, this is, of course, true. However, that melta SWS has a range of 12". A plasma SWS, if stationary, has a range of upto 24", HWS have effective ranges of upto 48". CC CCS have effective ranges of 6" (I'm not taking movement into account). Do you see how much harder it now is to keep this squad alive, and safe from enemy repercussions?

HWS models are instakilled by S6 weapons, and 3x plasma does little damage from 24" away, and in any case your opponent may bring weapons with a longer reach than 24" themselves. All of these squads are fragile. This is just splitting hairs.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I'd argue that if your paying the points for the CC weaponry you gave your officer squad, you'll want to use it, otherwise why pay for it?

What kind of sense does this make? Should I argue against plasma squads because taking plasma guns will just tempt you to use them?

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I don't bring power fists to a gunfight.

This appears to be a matter of philosophy, not tactics. If you don't want to take them on the basis of personal preference, that's fine, but that alone doesn't make them generally bad.

Stormrider wrote:I run my CCS in a Valkyrie with a Special Weapons squad in it as well.

alarmingrick wrote:

Stormrider wrote:I run my CCS in a Valkyrie with a Special Weapons squad in it as well.

Don't think that's legal...

It's not.

Ailaros wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I'd argue that if your paying the points for the CC weaponry you gave your officer squad, you'll want to use it, otherwise why pay for it?

What kind of sense does this make? Should I argue against plasma squads because taking plasma guns will just tempt you to use them?

You miss my point. People are arguing that they take power fists as a contingency plan to aid them if they were to get assaulted. I'm arguing that your paying points for equipment that you aren't using unless you actively try and get that squad into assault. Sitting in your Chimera shooting out of the hatches isn't a good investment of a power fist, so why bother buying one in the first place?

Ailaros wrote:This appears to be a matter of philosophy, not tactics. If you don't want to take them on the basis of personal preference, that's fine, but that alone doesn't make them generally bad.

Not so much philosophy, more common sense/effective expenditure of points. If I can kill my enemy whilst he's still over there, what need do I have of this hitty stick over here?

L. Wrex

Proper use of the Company Command Squad is dependent on the rest of your list.

If your running a mech list your CCS should be
CCS 3-4 Melta Guns + Astropath in Chimera w ML+HHF

This gives you the best shot to kill a vehicle with mobility and the ability to fire 3-4 bs 4 melta guns and if you really want something dead you can get out and issue the bring it down order. Astropath is for if you get second turn and want to reserve everything so you don't get shot you get a +1 to reserves.

If you want to run a second CCS in a mech list you can either arm them as above minus the astropath or
CCS 3-4 Plasma maybe Medic in Chimera
Plasmas are good in a Marine meta for killing Marines and terminators but only if you have enough Meltas in your army first.

If your running a foot list you want Straken in your company command squad to give your troops counter attack and furious charge so
CCS, Straken, 3 Meltas or sniper rifles, Medic, 2 Body Guards.Camo cloaks.
This assumes your running power weapons and commissars with power weapons in your combined squad Infantry Platoons.
Medic to make the squad more survivable with FNP. bodyguard to protect Straken and camo cloaks to give you a better cover save because you will be in cover or get cover from being interlaced inside an infantry platoon.

If you want close combat guard you want to leave the close combat to large 30-50 man blobs with 4-6 power weapons that are stubborn on rerollable 9 due to the comimisar and get furious charge and counter attack from Straken instead of small command squads.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:
You miss my point. People are arguing that they take power fists as a contingency plan to aid them if they were to get assaulted. I'm arguing that your paying points for equipment that you aren't using unless you actively try and get that squad into assault. Sitting in your Chimera shooting out of the hatches isn't a good investment of a power fist, so why bother buying one in the first place?

I do just that because more often than not my CCS Chimera will get destroyed and my CCS will get assaulted whether I want them to or not.

My CCS has done one of two things since I started doing well fairly recently.

If I have multiple infantry groups with heavy weapons, then the CCS has an Autocannon and hangs out in back to give orders and fire at some transports.

If I'm running a blob, they have Melta x4 and ride in a Chimera/Vendetta to be suicided. My PCS used to have this job, but now they have flamers to go along with their crappy BS, and ride in the other Vendetta.

If running multiple blobs, I can see the benefit of running Straken, but I'd still probably go with Plasma x4 and actually *use* the BS4 that we're paying for.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote: I'm arguing that your paying points for equipment that you aren't using unless you actively try and get that squad into assault. Sitting in your Chimera shooting out of the hatches isn't a good investment of a power fist, so why bother buying one in the first place?

Well if the point is to get into assault, then they wouldn't be sitting in the chimera all game now would they?

The fact that I'd actively want to get them into assault would be because they're good in assault. I don't understand why this makes them bad.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:
Not so much philosophy, more common sense/effective expenditure of points. If I can kill my enemy whilst he's still over there, what need do I have of this hitty stick over here?

Well, as I first mentioned...

Ailaros wrote:its attacks always ignore cover, and can be used twice per game turn, and can be used against units locked in close combat.

Furthermore, they always attack rear armor on vehicles. Plus...

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:I do just that because more often than not my CCS Chimera will get destroyed and my CCS will get assaulted whether I want them to or not.

Yeah, if my opponent lined up like ducks in a row and just let me shoot at them, then yeah, there wouldn't be as much sense to taking them (apart from what I just mentioned), given that there are plenty of opponents who are going to try and get into close combat with you, having some CC ability is good. Wish and pray, you're not always going to get your opponent to wipe your squads on their turn so you can shoot them with plasma right after. Counter-assault is thus a nice tool to have in one's belt.

Ailaros wrote:
The fact that I'd actively want to get them into assault would be because they're good in assault. I don't understand why this makes them bad.

But they aren't good in Assault....?

Well, they're better in assault than in any other role.

Yeah, they're not death incarnate versus the baddest, choppiest that some of your opponents can throw down, but for 90 points, what do you expect?

Damage-wise, they're just as effective as their points in plasma gun PCSs, except they have a different way of doing things. They're not as good at what plasma specifically excels at, but they are able to do some decent damage against targets that plasma is awful against, or that plasma guns can't even engage at all (units stuck in close combat, for example).

My whole point is that they've got mostly overlapping roles and do mostly the same damage for mostly the same points cost. I'm not quite seeing why they're all that terrible either for their price, or compared to their alternatives.

That is, unless you're deeply opposed to ever lifting a finger in close combat ever, and have an opponent who agrees.

Ailaros wrote:Yeah, they're not death incarnate versus the baddest, choppiest that some of your opponents can throw down, but for 90 points, what do you expect?

to shoot the crap out of whatever the squad faces, not wasting points on crap like Power fists and not wasing my CCS in CC...

but they are as effective damage-wise as plasma PCSs...

Tactics wise its better to have a powerfist and not need it, then need it and not have one.
The assault phase is a 3rd of your turn and a second chance to deal damage. It is also the ONLY phase in which you can deal wounds to your opponent on their turn.
Yes, IG are better at shooting but your giveing your opponent a huge advantage if you don't come to the table ready to deal wounds in assault.
There are only 5-6 turns to deal wounds to your opponent in shooting. There are 10-12 turns to deal wounds in assault.
A PF is 15 pts and so is a plasma gun 5-6 shots with plasma a possible 10-12 with fist.
Also objectives are often a factor in 40k and trying to shoot your opponent off of an objective and then move onto it is a lot harder then shooting them and then assaulting them.
The CCS can't really do anything on it's own being so small it is a support unit. Tacticaly it is better to maximise the utility of your support squads then neuter it from participateing in the larger portion of the game.

Tread'Ead wrote:Tactics wise its better to have a powerfist and not need it, then need it and not have one.

Better to have spent the points on something else, than to have brought it and die before you get to use it,imho.

The origin of the forum is not just on how to build the best comand squad but how to make best use of it.

The plasma gun is useless once it comes down to the knife fight and the knife fight happens more often then not. If your squad doesn't get to the knife fight then its sitting back and not makeing any moves for objectives.
Granted it can't hold an objective as its not a troop but it can help hold or take one. It is a support unit and shouldn't be killed before the unit it is supporting as the unit it is supporting will be a bigger threat without the PF its not really going to provide CC support.

Give the squad the plasmas for the shooting but not takeing the PF so that you can afford one more plasma in your army vastly decreases your units effectiveness in close combat and as i mentioned earlier the Assault phase is a larger portion of the game and more vital for takeing and holding objectives. Sure IG aren't the best at it but if you don't come equipped to fight at all your at a huge disadvantage from the start.

Saying IG "isn't the best" at CC is like saying bricks "don't float so well". Except for a couple exceptions, of which the CCS is not one, you do not want to be in CC with IG. And if you get there, then you usually want to lose the squad so you can get back to what you're good at - shooting. If you want a unit that's good at CC or that can be used for counter-charge, look at: blob squads, Rough Riders, and Ogryns. Don't try and put floaties on your brick, hoping it can swim.

Tread'Ead wrote:Tactics wise its better to have a powerfist and not need it, then need it and not have one.

Well sure, but ideally, you'd have what you need and need what you have. You have to be a little careful spiralling off in "what if" land, as, technically speaking, no guard commander NEEDS close combat, like no guard commander needs long range firepower.

That said, it's still nice to have around, especially if you have a generally rush-at-them guard army.

alarmingrick wrote:Better to have spent the points on something else, than to have brought it and die before you get to use it,imho.

An officer squad is going to be no more durable if you give it plasma guns instead. It's still a 5 man squad. If your opponent really doesn't want you to be able to use it, you won't be able to use it (unless you outflank it or something). Giving a squad power fists makes it no more or less durable.

Tread'Ead wrote:Give the squad the plasmas for the shooting but not takeing the PF so that you can afford one more plasma in your army vastly decreases your units effectiveness in close combat

I agree with the rest of your post except this. Officer squads are best kept cheap and focused. Putting a power fist in a squad with rapid fire weapons seems unwise to me as you'll never be using the entire weapon loadout at the same time (which means you're always wasting points).

ElCheezus wrote:Saying IG "isn't the best" at CC is like saying bricks "don't float so well". Except for a couple exceptions

A false mantra that may have once been true, but is no longer. Guard can compete just fine in close combat, thank you very much.

Perpetrating old stereotypes long past their creation isn't particularly helpful.

Guard can be good in CC - by using large blobs, ideally backed up by straken or creed. Guard do not need or want powerfist command squads for this purpose. Command squads are there to provide orders/fire support for blob squads.

Ailaros wrote:Well if the point is to get into assault, then they wouldn't be sitting in the chimera all game now would they?

The fact that I'd actively want to get them into assault would be because they're good in assault. I don't understand why this makes them bad.

Did you actually read what I wrote? Or are your just cherry-picking quotes to fashion an arguement out of again? If you'd read the thread, you'll notice that a few posters keep a power fist in the off-chance that their CCS hits combat, more as a contingency than anything else. I'm making the arguement that unless they're actively seeking CC (which you would want to if you buy a fist) then your wasting your points allowance which could have been spent on more men/guns. Moreover, if you are actively seeking CC then, bar a Straken/power-blob list, your not really playing your Guard correctly. Why is this so hard to understand?

Ailaros wrote:An officer squad is going to be no more durable if you give it plasma guns instead. It's still a 5 man squad. If your opponent really doesn't want you to be able to use it, you won't be able to use it (unless you outflank it or something). Giving a squad power fists makes it no more or less durable.

Eh?! Are you purposefully mixing contrasting arguements together so that it suits your own? Above you claim that you are actively trying to get into assault with a 5-man unit otherwise your power fist isn't being used, this decreases their life expectancy massively as THEY GET BEATEN UP IN COMBAT! If your shooting with them your life expectancy increases massivly because your NOT IN ASSAULT and more than likely in a Chimera, which doubles their protection whilst still offerng the CCS 100% of its shooting effectiveness. I'm getting a bit tired of repeating the same arguement again and again, and I'm not sure if your being purposefully obtuse just for the sake of it.

Ailaros wrote:I agree with the rest of your post except this. Officer squads are best kept cheap and focused. Putting a power fist in a squad with rapid fire weapons seems unwise to me as you'll never be using the entire weapon loadout at the same time (which means you're always wasting points).

And the vast majority of a Guard's lethality comes from lots of rapid-fire weapons firing...rapidly. Supplemented by tanks and artillery. By your very own logic you wouldn't want to mix rapid-fire with power fists. So now your stuck with either flamers or meltas. Flamers wastes a perfectly good BS4, and a melta focuses the squad more upon anti-tank, where an extra S6 hit won't make much difference.

Ailaros wrote:

ElCheezus wrote:Saying IG "isn't the best" at CC is like saying bricks "don't float so well". Except for a couple exceptions

A false mantra that may have once been true, but is no longer. Guard can compete just fine in close combat, thank you very much.

Perpetrating old stereotypes long past their creation isn't particularly helpful.

I bolded the important bit: 'Except for a couple of exceptions'. Unless you specifically tailor your list to be a power-blob heavy infantry list then Guard suck in CC. I have been arguing this since pretty much my first post on this topic; that unless you build a list specifically around CC, you will not see the benefit of the odd power fist scattered around the place. Merely taking them because something may happen isn't really good list-building, when instead you could be spending those points in areas where Guard are actually effective!

L. Wrex


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:but they are as effective damage-wise as plasma PCSs...

And how the hell did you come to that conclusion?

L. Wrex