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-alarmingrick-

I'm not trying to say that a cc ccs is superior to a Plasma ccs or even competitive. I actually agree with you completely. I just like alternative builds for units most people pigeon hole into a specific role. (granted they are pigeon holed for a reason).

survivability is always a concern for small IG squads, but I could see marching them down the field like this relatively successfully. Just watch out for Barrage/blast weapons

__xxxxx
xx_ccs_xx
xx____xx
__xxxxx


I would probably never run this in anything but a fluffy army for friendly games.

I run my CCS in a Valkyrie with a Special Weapons squad in it as well.

Straken, 2x Bodyguards, Medic, Standard, Plasma and Vox.

SWS has hvy flamer, melta and Demo Charge

I immediately try to get my CCS stuck in so they can avoid small arms, the Special Weapons Squad is around to clean up random vehicles or units that like playing catch with demo charges, and the heavy flamer is pretty self explanatory.

Unluckily my local meta is entirely mixed as to what people have. I am constantly having to change my list to adapt to what's hip now.

Stormrider wrote:I run my CCS in a Valkyrie with a Special Weapons squad in it as well.

What, at the same time?

Stormrider wrote:I run my CCS in a Valkyrie with a Special Weapons squad in it as well.

Don't think that's legal...

I wonder why you compare the ccs with its mismatches...

I can say tanks are generally useless, because every powerfist-equivalent owns them in CC...

Of course a cc ccs cannot break the hardest cc unit the enemy can come up with.
But against the regular tac-SM they are superior. Remember the CC is not there main task, their main task is meltaing something to death and ordering other units to do the same, but:
The cc ccs can defend itself pretty well against regular opponents and wipe out injured squads reliably.
But of course they need shooting support before.

-Nazdreg- wrote:

I can say tanks are generally useless, because every powerfist-equivalent owns them in CC...
.

One pie plate from a generic Leman Russ in the middle of a Tac Squad will earn it's points back.
I've had it happen, recently. It was a glorious moment.

On a more serious note: the value of tanks depends on what you play, and how you play them. They've done well for me.

-Nazdreg- wrote:I wonder why you compare the ccs with its mismatches...

I can say tanks are generally useless, because every powerfist-equivalent owns them in CC...

That's all well and good, considering that you might not even get to CC against vehicles in the first place, and that any competent tank commander will be moving 6" at the very least per turn so you're hitting on 4s...

-Nazdreg- wrote:Of course a cc ccs cannot break the hardest cc unit the enemy can come up with.

Then why bother wasting the points trying to tool them up for a job that they do not excel? Your simply wasting your points allowance trying to improve on one of the weakest aspects of a Guard army.

-Nazdreg- wrote:But against the regular tac-SM they are superior. Remember the CC is not there main task, their main task is meltaing something to death and ordering other units to do the same, but:
The cc ccs can defend itself pretty well against regular opponents and wipe out injured squads reliably.
But of course they need shooting support before.

Regular Tactical SM *suck* in CC. Saying that a unit that is tooled up to be ahem...'effective' in CC can beat up Tacticals is absoloutely nothing to shout about. Furthermore, if you try and equip your CCS to be both shooty and choppy your spending extra points making your one unit only 50% effective at any given task. Give them a role and dedicate them to it, don't flirt with extraneous bumph as it only confuses the roole of the squad in question.

Finally, 5 Guard are rubbish in CC. Spending the points on power fists and bodyguards is simply making your 5 man squad even more expensive, for no real gain in lethality.

As an aside, I'm not trying to dissuade people from trying out different builds of a CCS, but the title of the thread is 'proper use' of a CCS and, in my opinion at least, making proper use of the CCS is maximising their BS4 with lots of special weapons, not trying to enhance one of the fundamental weaknesses in your army by throwng an unneccesary amount of points at it.

L. Wrex

30p is also nothing to shout about.
You also can call it "narrowminded use of IG command squad"... *shakes head*

By the way I would put melta in the ccs and plasma into the vets thats strategically better. (HQ out -> order -> melta -> kill -> veterans out of chim -> contents kill, counter only against chim or HQ)

There's a significant dfference between 'narrow-minded' and 'trying to offer good advice'. If you want to try and promote the IG as effective in combat then be my guest, but you'll find a whole ream of experienced players saying that CC is the very last place any Guardsman wants to end up in, and no-one wins many games by enhancing the weakest aspect of their army.

Again, I only said that vanilla CCS cannot do CC, if you use Straken in your games and support him adequately, then they can kill stuff in assault. Straken, however, requires a sepecific army build to make the most of his abilties, and just bringing him along in, say, a mech-Vet list, would result in you being fairly underwhelmed.

With regards your weapon selection; it works perfectly well the other way around. In fact, it works better, as the CCS has 4 plasma as opposed to the Vets which can only have 3. So Vets disembark, CCS orders BiD, Vets pop vehicle, CCS hoses contents from inside the Chiimera. Either/or, though don't forget that the CCS can also take a Medic to mitigate overheat results, the Vets don't have such a luxury.

L. Wrex


Automatically Appended Next Post:

-Nazdreg- wrote:30p is also nothing to shout about.

I really don't know what point your trying to make here. Elucidate please.

Gavo wrote:
Now, a PCS, I would probably give them 4x melta and a chimera, you have a good-to go suicide squad for 125 points. Even at BS3, remember that they can dole out orders, so with BiD, they can take down AV14 fairly easily.

Special Weapon squad (shivers) would be cheaper and you wouldn't lose the ability to give orders

Special weapons squads cannot be given a dedicated transport, so must embark on the first turn - this can restrict your deployment options, and can be dangerous if you're going second. Also, a SWS with 3 meltas is 65 points - a PCS with 4 meltas is 70, so I'd say that is a pretty clear victory for the PCS in terms of efficiency (since it generates 2 hits/turn instead of 1.5, a very big difference).

with 30 points I meant the cc package bodyguard and powerfist. Because otherwise you got problems if 2 MEQs stay alive and will counter your HQ dead (even worse in 2 phases).
And spending 30p isnt a big effort

I am also the opinion, that the cc is not the IGs best friend, but:

It would be difficult in my opinion to negate the existence of close combat for an IG. That would be foolish. And close combat doesnt mean charging the best close combat unit the enemy can bring on an defeat it easily. Close combat means that a squad can defeat charging remnants of not completely killed enemy squads or holding off against a stronger enemy for a turn to let the rest evade the threat or charging an opponent, holding him off for his turn and then go for him out of a better position after he killed your unit.

Of course Straken needs a special army build. Thats of no question. But special army builds are not automatically worse than common. ANd even Straken allows many different style, you can go for blobs, for penals, for Footvets with camo and fists (pretty neat sneaky thing). Just mechvets are not really profiting from him. And too bad its the most common style of play

I dont want to talk the special weapon only CCS down to no existence. It is pretty solid. But it is not the only effective way to use a CCS. That is my point.
From my subjective point of view, I play IG (and only IG) since 4th Edition and old codex in a competitive manner, I tested both ccs-versions and I personnally always missed the fist in a special weapon only-ccs.

I have to admit, I always like special builds more than the common ones (I use a special quite personal build too).

And I always like to support things that are not common knowledge.

@loadout

Yes it is almost the same thing, but melta act from outside of the vehicle and you dont want the veterans to come out at any point. The CCS is expendable, the veterans are not. Thats my thinking. So I personally keep the more defensive weapons in the veterans. Concerning the medic: You pay 15p and sacrifice a plasmagunner for the 50% chance of saving an overheating plasmagunner that failed his save. No big deal in my opinion, just shifting potential around basically.

To my experience, the only CC IG squad that works / is effective is the Lord Commissar w/ Powerfist with 4-5 Ogryns in a Chimera. I feel bad for the Commissar in that claustrophobic space, but when they get out and assault an unsuspecting tactical squad, vengeance is exacted. I wouldn't put them up against terminators, but they can for sure hold their own against basic marines that are shooting up your squads or drop podding into your backyard.

CCS's work best in a Chimera with 4 plasma (and maybe 1 plasma pistol) and carapace, giving you that 4+ for when get hot happens (it does). I've taken down daemon princes, mawlocks, trygons, terminator squads, you name it. I wouldn't waste the potential to have 4 sw and bs 4.

tldr wrote:To my experience, the only CC IG squad that works / is effective is the Lord Commissar w/ Powerfist with 4-5 Ogryns in a Chimera. I feel bad for the Commissar in that claustrophobic space, but when they get out and assault an unsuspecting tactical squad, vengeance is exacted. I wouldn't put them up against terminators, but they can for sure hold their own against basic marines that are shooting up your squads or drop podding into your backyard.

CCS's work best in a Chimera with 4 plasma (and maybe 1 plasma pistol) and carapace, giving you that 4+ for when get hot happens (it does). I've taken down daemon princes, mawlocks, trygons, terminator squads, you name it. I wouldn't waste the potential to have 4 sw and bs 4.

I have never had them, or seen them earn their points back. They cost as much as a Terminator, without much to show for it, besides a few better stats, a few worse, a mediocre gun, and a wonderful 5+ save.

So, this is slightly off topic, but I finally got back to my codex after these past couple of days and took a look at this:

platoon command squad
-officer with power fist
-commissar with power fist

95 points.

So, it costs 5 more points than a 4x plasma squad, and the plasma squad gets 6" more range with it's leathelest firepower, 1 more attack in your shooting phase, and +1 str, which is mostly going to be used against vehicles, which plasma guns arent' really designed for (except AV10, which powerfists can do just fine against).

The power fist combo gives you one fewer attacks and less range, but its attacks always ignore cover, and can be used twice per game turn, and can be used against units locked in close combat.

Obviously the two have different roles, but a PCS (rather than a CCS), can put out some decent cheap damage.

But they'll get smacked before they even have a chance to swing.

This is my premium point regarding outfitting Guard for CC. You've got 6 guys there with a 5+ save, swinging at I3/1. Pretty much everything in the game will hit it on 3s and wound it on 3s and you simply do not have the bodies to soak up that damage. If you end up charging (not likely) into Tacticals then yes, you may have your PC/Commisar alive to swing, but that only amounts to 3 dead marines with perfect rolling.

It's simply not worth the points outfitting them for CC unless you take Straken, and if you've reached that point then your taking a very particular brand of Guard army.

L. Wrex

I would not equip a pcs for close combat. The commander has only one wound and is most likely to die if the enemy scores 5 wounds in one go.
And you cant have a bodyguard to save him in critical situations (I love this ability to drag 2 wound off the commander and soak off up to 4 wounds on one model. Thats why a ccs wins combats, it is next to impossible to kill a 3 wounds guy out of a 6 man squad in one go)

I have a power fist in my PCs because the model has one. He's the old Catachang mang with a bolter as well. And I never ever have cause to regret it! Every single game I get my points back on that power fist - last game it was a squad of 3 sm bikers that got into my centre and were threatening my a veteran squad and lascannon team HWS. Without the fist they would have run amok, but the CCS charged in to support the vets they were meleeing and you know the only guy that did any damage to those T5 bikers was the bossman. Sure, it took him all game, but he killed that scoring fast SM unit dead.

I guess the common thinking is that guard suck in HTH, so why bother equipping them for it, but in my experience there's always some bad dudes that reach your lines so it's good to prepared for that eventuality.

I outfit my CCS with 4 Plasma guns, Plasma pistol and Powerfist on my commander, with Carapace all around in a Chimera. Rarely does my commander fail to make good use of his Powerfist.

Ailaros wrote:
platoon command squad
-officer with power fist
-commissar with power fist

95 points.

I agree that those S6 attacks are attractive and won't break the bank. But they probably will never come into play. It's a squad of 6 T3 5+ save models. Since they can only move to assault 12", they will probably have to endure a turn of bolter fire. Let's pit them against a SM combat squad. (5 men with bp + ccw sergeant, flamer) Say you manage things very well, his flamer won't reach so he shoots a bolt pistol instead. 8 S4 shots, 5.33 hits, be generous and see 3 men dead. So now you have 1 veteran and your powerfists. (again, assume you pass your morale check and your commissar doesn't execute the lt.) You charge the combat squad, they take 7 attacks, 3.5 hits since you now have majority WS4 (is this right?) and 2.33 wounds. So at least one of your powerfists is now taking a 5+ save. You will probably lose one of them before swinging. And that's against a unit just as cheap as them, which is not in any way kitted out for close combat.

Close combat IG command squads are not as good as shooty command squads. The only way to make them useful is to take Straken, which you do for his effect on blob squads as much as for his own combat ability (his squad still isn't a tough unit, it's 5 IG and 1 SM) and even in that case, you can't expect him to regularly punch out demon princes and such as Nazdreg is describing.

@I-bounty

Since they can only move to assault 12", they will probably have to endure a turn of bolter fire

That means, you did foolishly place them out in the open to serve the squad to the enemy. A 12" driven, smoked chimera is the case you should think of. Try to shoot that out. And if you do, because a powerfist is in it: Nice, so the rest of your army will be free and healthy.

Say you manage things very well, his flamer won't reach so he shoots a bolt pistol instead. 8 S4 shots, 5.33 hits, be generous and see 3 men dead

You think a combat squad will advance you with a flamer? Well, then you dont need to attack them, because they are not dangerous. And btw. normally you have your guys covered. So our result would be only 1,5 dead men and a further bonus: You can shoot into that marine squad when they dont charge you. And then you go with a few meltaguns or flamers (from the PCS (better: CCS), you may not forget your special weapons, they have to be in it of course) into them killing perhaps 1 or 2 and going for fist-duel, which you will win on the charge. Step back into cover and the enemy has to deal with a unit that will go to ground probably.

You may not forget, there is no discrepancy between shooty and close combat commands, because you can have both. You dont need to stick to your plasmaguns, you can use Vets with them too, take your meltas and feel free to use the option to charge to a decent effect for 30p more. Or if you want plasmas use a fist for defence so the typical remaining 2 man Marine/CSM squad cannot wipe you out unnecessarily (as Evil Lamp uses it). A hidden fist with 3 wounds is a nice thing to have up the sleeve.

@Jimole

Exacty! Thats what I am trying to say. I also use that catachan powerfistman btw But as company commander.

Without the fist they would have run amok, but the CCS charged in to support the vets they were meleeing and you know the only guy that did any damage to those T5 bikers was the bossman. Sure, it took him all game, but he killed that scoring fast SM unit dead.

I guess the common thinking is that guard suck in HTH, so why bother equipping them for it, but in my experience there's always some bad dudes that reach your lines so it's good to prepared for that eventuality.

Very well said. Thats the style!

Jimole wrote:I guess the common thinking is that guard suck in HTH, so why bother equipping them for it, but in my experience there's always some bad dudes that reach your lines so it's good to prepared for that eventuality.

Wherease I would argue not to spend the points even trying to accomodate the notion of HtH, and instead use those points on more men/guns. This not only strengthenes your overall shooting (as you have more guns), but it also creates redundancy (as you have more men with those guns).

I just cannot see the benefit to giving Guard CC weapons. If you want to protect them from HtH, just buy a Chimera; where now you are 100% protected from the enemy, and can *still* fire at 100% effectiveness. Throwing away points on power fists and other gubbins just doesn't seem worth it.

Also, simply quoting anecdotes on how your power fist saved your unit from enemy unit X doesn't work when trying to view how useful a piece of equipment is. Mathhammering + a decent amount of subjective reasoning (terrain, movement, model placement, charging etc.) all points towards PCS/CCS HtH units simply not being worth the points you pay for them.

L. Wrex

-Nazdreg- wrote:@I-bounty

Since they can only move to assault 12", they will probably have to endure a turn of bolter fire

That means, you did foolishly place them out in the open to serve the squad to the enemy. A 12" driven, smoked chimera is the case you should think of. Try to shoot that out. And if you do, because a powerfist is in it: Nice, so the rest of your army will be free and healthy.

Say you manage things very well, his flamer won't reach so he shoots a bolt pistol instead. 8 S4 shots, 5.33 hits, be generous and see 3 men dead

You think a combat squad will advance you with a flamer? Well, then you dont need to attack them, because they are not dangerous. And btw. normally you have your guys covered. So our result would be only 1,5 dead men and a further bonus: You can shoot into that marine squad when they dont charge you. And then you go with a few meltaguns or flamers (from the PCS (better: CCS), you may not forget your special weapons, they have to be in it of course) into them killing perhaps 1 or 2 and going for fist-duel, which you will win on the charge. Step back into cover and the enemy has to deal with a unit that will go to ground probably.

You may not forget, there is no discrepancy between shooty and close combat commands, because you can have both. You dont need to stick to your plasmaguns, you can use Vets with them too, take your meltas and feel free to use the option to charge to a decent effect for 30p more. Or if you want plasmas use a fist for defence so the typical remaining 2 man Marine/CSM squad cannot wipe you out unnecessarily (as Evil Lamp uses it). A hidden fist with 3 wounds is a nice thing to have up the sleeve.

Frankly, I think you're being a bit obtuse in order to preserve your idea of cc-oriented guard squads mate. My example was meant to show a fairly advantageous position for the guard player: a non-melee unit of similar value, failing to use all its assets completely. Your example situation is rather more ridiculous. A combat command squad can take cover in the ruins of its chimera (which would mean you've spent and lost 55 pts already), you're right! However all your opponent then needs to do is stay >12" away from the chimera, and you still have to endure a turn of rapid fire in order to assault him!

Even more ridiculous is the idea of using special weapons and powerfists on everything. That squad costs so much that even with a coversave, it's bleeding tons of points to your opponent.

The close combat upgrades/weapons for IG command squads are not worth the cost; they make a small and vulnerable unit too expensive. The special weapons, costing a similar amount, will do more damage and are far more likely to come into play. QED, arm a CCS or PCS with special weapons, and not with combat upgrades. I really cannot make this any clearer.

Frankly, I think you're being a bit obtuse in order to preserve your idea of cc-oriented guard squads mate. My example was meant to show a fairly advantageous position for the guard player: a non-melee unit of similar value, failing to use all its assets completely.

We both are quite obtuse about our positions, mate. I can just speak out of 4 years experience and many many games. I have learned many lessons and tried many things. You are counting points and weighing points vs. killing potential in a quite linear mathhammering manner talking about squad vs squad not referring on the position, nor the support. There might be a slightly advantage towards the only special weapon-squad then relying on the situation that you always get your target killed outright, which is at least optimistical. The only advantage is, that this squad is 30p cheaper. And honestly who cares about 30 points...
You talk down the resilience and power of the fist in the squad and I doubt the killing ability of the shooty part of the squad alone.
Weighing points vs. points is not the game, that should we both know. And not thinking of CC is in my opinion the typical imperial "We shoot the enemy to pieces anyway, why should we bother cc"-thinking. Its almost the same thinking as using as many heavy weapons as possible to keep the enemy away from you. That is simply wrong.

And to be honest, my idea of a CCS is NOT being cc-oriented but I am thinking of the usage of a possible cc as a backup if shooting fails. I tend to build battleplans that have multiple backups if the math betrays me. And I go fine with it.

If you do not want to see that as a possibility (and it is a possibility, not the one and only way, sw only of course is solid, as I said) then it is not my problem. But honestly, it sounds a bit ignorant to me. Don't take this personal please, guys.

Even more ridiculous is the idea of using special weapons and powerfists on everything.

Who says anything about everything... We have a little distinction to make here. Veteran Powerfist = useless no vulnerable troops in CC please dont do that.... PC-Powerfist = unless highly upgraded with commissar and such, useless, same reason and much less resilient.
CC-Powerfist = if taken together with bodyguard, a useful possibility. Not game winning, but you can do some magic with it the opponent doesnt expect from it.

Powerfist without special weapons = also useless, because the squad cannot shoot before assaulting, it cannot shoot out of their chimera, they cant do anything but assault something. That is not, what we want...

But nevertheless, you have to use the CCS very very carefully and choose your opponents wisely. You will hold most opponents off for one turn (except massive s6 up-weapons) and you will defeat many units with few attacks regardless of their armour due to attrition.

In my experience with running my CCS(s) the way I do, their Chimera gets popped and they get assaulted either that turn or the next. The commander with his 3 wounds and 4+/5++ usually survives to swing with his Powerfist at least once. With IG Init of 3, we're swinging last in CC anyway, might as well swing at S6 and kill a few things before dieing a hero's death. I wouldn't tool my CCS out for CC, but having that Fist has proven useful time and again. Rarely would I give a PCS Lt. a Powerfist unless I also take the Commissar with one too, but the that gets into the realm of more points for such a cheap fragile unit. When I do run Vets, at least one or two of my Vet Sgts has a Powerfist too. They are very situational weapons on IG models, but when they get used you will be glad you brought them.

To me, it' a matter of not bringing a Powerfist to a gun fight. again, just my opinion...
i'd give him a Plasma pistol before i gave him PF.

I give my Commander both.

The real problem with said choppy officer squads is their durability, which I agree is pretty weak. That said, straken doesn't help this, so I fail to see how he's necessary (as if you're under the impression that they're just going to get hacked to pieces anyways, furious charge won't help).

That said, the guard brings a lot of small, fragile squads, like SWSs, HWSs, suicide stormies, officer squads, etc. If you're latently opposed to fragile squads, then fine, don't take them (you're probably already running mechvet anyways), but if you're going to put down 65-95 point 5 or 6 man squads, then there's nothing wrong with arming them with a pair of powerfists.

Yeah, you don't win by charging them into wyches, but neither do you win by shooting them with a melta SWS either. Generally speaking, small, fragile guard squads have basically one role they fill, based on what they're armed with. A choppy officer squad is no different.

I totally agree with the above, Ailaros. You can ameliorate the problem of the squishy fist squad with good deployment. You have to shield him with other squishy squads until you have a chance to charge him in when there is reasonable chance of some success with what he's supposed to do (ie. weak enemy, overwhelming numbers already, etc...). It's a tool, slightly more expensive and specialized, so it requires a bit more care, but ultimately still expendable.

In a previous incarnation of this thread someone argued for medics with fists, to increase the odds a fist will survive to be used. I'm not sure I agree, but in big points battles it might be ok.

Your makng the arguement that small Guard squads need to be protected and utilised properly in order to be effective, this is, of course, true. However, that melta SWS has a range of 12". A plasma SWS, if stationary, has a range of upto 24", HWS have effective ranges of upto 48". CC CCS have effective ranges of 6" (I'm not taking movement into account). Do you see how much harder it now is to keep this squad alive, and safe from enemy repercussions?

I'd argue that if your paying the points for the CC weaponry you gave your officer squad, you'll want to use it, otherwise why pay for it? 15pts + bodyguards is a lot of points to be spendiing on equipment you might use. Especially when that 15pts can get you another melta/plasma gun elsewhere in the army. A lot of people argue that the MoO isn't really worth his points cost; inaccurcy, expensive and because he forces a CCS into a static role. Giving your CCS a power fist follows in pretty much the same model; inaccurate, small number of attacks and generally confuses the role of the unit (whilst before you'd be happy shooting, now you feel youy may want to assault instead).

I don't bring power fists to a gunfight. If you do, then more power to you, but the vast majority of other small CC-orientated units in the game have some way to offset their small numbers; high I, lots of attacks, Furious Charge etc etc. Guard have none of these and to kid yourself that you'll kll stuff up close simply smacks of a waste of points to me.

As an aside, a Medic as an actual Advisor would be quite awesome...

L. Wrex