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kennyalhavg wrote:

Also, bolters would be a rather wow factor if you hit someone with it. A basic infantry weapon-- a rifle, not a grenade launcher, a rifle which an entire squad has-- which can cause a human body to explode, or rip apart light vehicles, etc. That is something that would cause a big impact.

This is exactly what the AA-12 can do on a modern day battlefield, a single HE round will tear a man into pieces and most likely kill the men next to him, while AP rounds can turn a light tank or APC to swiss cheese. no modern armor aside from a heavy tank is safe from the AA-12
Sure, well never see a full squad of marines fully equipped with AA-12s carrying a full load out of HE, incendiary, airburst, HEAP, and fragmentation rounds into combat, but on the modern battlefield, the AA-12 mimics the bolters destructiveness; both being able to destroy pretty much anything you can throw at it

Hahahaha I physically cannot stop laughing due to that post. I find it very hard to believe that a shot gun (regardless of Automatic capabilities) would ever in any situation be able to punch through inches of Steel and Titanium (thats based on the French VBCI APC) let alone a battle tank that uses Depleted Uranium. I change my wording, I find it impossible that such will happen due to these facts.
1. These vehicles are designed to take small arms, and standard rifle fire. That being said when a shotgun is fired (I will assume you don't know) the projectile flies out of the barrel and goes a few yards (20 to 30) and breaks apart. (sometimes less than that) the force needed would have to be centralized and hit hard. (harder than the shotgun your talking about [which is 12 gauge] will ever be capable of hitting.)
2. Bolters are single projectile weapons. They do not fire a shell packed with multiple projectiles, they fire a shell packed with one big ass round. (not taking slugs into mind for this convo)
3. The armoring on the APCs and Tanks are inches of Steel, titanium, Depleted Uranium and special steel made just to stop bigger rounds than a shotgun can fire. (like 20-40mm grenades or Rocket Propelled Grenades.)
4. United States Marines arent dumb enough to carry only shotguns into battle (especially the automatic kind) that lacks discipline and combat effectiveness. You should be hopeful that an actual Marine doesn't see this and just laugh himself to death.
5. While your semi correct when you say " a single HE round will tear a man into pieces and most likely kill the men next to him" This video here begs to differ that the man next to him might be covered in blood and some tiny bits of his buddies insides, he will be physically fine (however emotionally he will not)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQYp9fOJ9VI
This looks like a plate of metal (its not known what it is, it could be a chalk board for all we know) Regardless of what its made of it doesn't seem to be doing all that much damage. The AA12 it is powerful but for what it is made for, a close quarter conglomeration of metal and polymer that throws lead at the general direction of what ever your trying to kill at 300 rounds a minuet.

The AA12 and the Bolter are comparable in shape maybe? (I dont really think so) but in destructive power one is a 12 gauge shotgun. A Bolter is well... it fires a " you round" (which is much bigger than a 12 gauge FYI)

VBCI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VBCI


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kenshin620 wrote:Bolters are for sissy marine players!

REAL MEN (or orks!) use inaccurate guns that dont jam easily and have a boatload of bullets! (I guess the AK 200 counts as that!)

Personally I think its way too futuristic for Orks to use the AK 200 rifle. I think they should use the STG 44 or an old Browning LMG. Even better than that the Type 99 LMG :3

1. These vehicles are designed to take small arms, and standard rifle fire. That being said when a shotgun is fired (I will assume you don't know) the projectile flies out of the barrel and goes a few yards (20 to 30) and breaks apart. (sometimes less than that) the force needed would have to be centralized and hit hard. (harder than the shotgun your talking about [which is 12 gauge] will ever be capable of hitting.)

ha, read the posts before you reply, i have said nothing about using buckshot.

They do not fire a shell packed with multiple projectiles, they fire a shell packed with one big ass round. (not taking slugs into mind for this convo)

not even talking about the slugs, the frag-12 family of explosive shells are single projectiles

The armoring on the APCs and Tanks are inches of Steel, titanium, Depleted Uranium and special steel made just to stop bigger rounds than a shotgun can fire.

with the AA-12 firing the new HEAP rounds, youd be suprised, technology allows for a larger impact in smaller packages; but im not saying that youll have a chance to take out an abrams or a bradley, but a bmp or a m113 wouldnt stand a chance

United States Marines arent dumb enough to carry only shotguns into battle (especially the automatic kind) that lacks discipline and combat effectiveness. You should be hopeful that an actual Marine doesn't see this and just laugh himself to death.

thats a joke, my buddies who served in operation al-fajr would say otherwise. maybe you can try taking point with a semi automatic shotgun clearing a city building by building, room by room then you can argue

5. While your semi correct when you say " a single HE round will tear a man into pieces and most likely kill the men next to him" This video here begs to differ that the man next to him might be covered in blood and some tiny bits of his buddies insides, he will be physically fine (however emotionally he will not)

shrapnell kills. dont forget that when your dealing with high explosives

A Bolter is well... it fires a " you round" (which is much bigger than a 12 gauge FYI)

much bigger? really? the Bolter fires .75 calliber bolts while the AA-12 Fires .729 calliber HE rounds... not too big of a difference now, is it?

Size doesn't matter as much when the round from a bolter penetrates your armor and detonates inside you.
As for the US Marine argument, I think a bigger problem would be that the United States seems to hate giving our troops too many guns that are actually effective. (mainly because the good ones aren't American/cheap/Colt)

From the size of the blast in the youtube video of the AA-12 with HE shells, I feel like the blast and shrapnel wouldn't kill a man next to the target, but it certainly wouldn't leave him happy or necessarily unscathed either.

Regardless of how the AA-12 would perform in real life, its HE shells are almost nothing like the rounds fired from a bolter.
Hence, by the way, the science "fiction".

The closest modern equivalent to a bolter is, either one of the direct fire air burst support weapons currently replacing most of the worlds 81mm mortar support, such as the HK GMG or the now cancelled XM 307. Or even the Milkor MGL which is a hand held grenade launcher used by south Africa. AA-12 is a shotgun.

Lord_Inquisitor wrote:mainly because the good ones aren't American/cheap/Colt

Best part is that your current generation of personal weapons, the m4 and m16 family of rifles, is originally designed by a Canadian company. Of course then the US government cut some materials out and replaced them with cheaper less efficient ones, reducing cost and efficiency.

My mistake for the American/Colt parts then.
We still seem to hate good weapons if they're too expensive.
And I don't really think the GMG, XM307, or MGL really count as bolter-equivalents.
As has already been pointed out, they don't penetrate you and detonate inside you.
Yes, they can detonate at certain pre-defined points, or at certain ranges/heights/etc. But they don't automatically go off inside you.
(By the way, I'm not meaning this as a disagreement with you, Draggoon--you did say the closest modern day equivalent.
I'm just refuting what parts of it I can so no one misunderstands what you're saying.
...Or something.

AA-12 is a room-clearer at best. The bolter also has different ammo types (hellfire, veangance, stalker, dragonfire and kraken).

AA-12 has a very limited range, even with it's self-propelled ammunition (due to lack of rifling). so even at the ranges which bolter fire is accurate (due to rifling - sourced from Dark Heresy rulebook), the AA-12 would be very inaccurate.

Secondly, reloading for the AA-12 is manual, and requires an extended amount of time (5 minutes at least for trained personel I'd estimate), versus that of a 5 second clip change.

Finally, I am also assuming that you wouldn't have access to a lot of ammunition with the AA-12 simply because of the bulk of the hopper, and the need to be fire-friendly.

3 key points on how bolters and the AA-12 differ.

has anyone seen the expendables? i know its a movie but there is an awesome part in that withh a guy blow loads of people to bits with
an aa-12. (and yeh i know its just a movie)