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In the Warhammer 40k hobby, theres always alot of hypothetical "what ifs" especially when it comes to the emperors finest warriors such as their armor and the weaponry "sword and shield" they carry into battle. The bolter was always my favorite, firing .75 caliber mass reactive shells , I could only imagine what benefit such a weapon could do on the modern battlefield; not to mention the psychological impact that would be inflicted upon the enemy.
The AA-12 shotgun caught my eye back in 2000 and i have carefully followed its progress ever since. This 12 gauge shotgun with fully automatic firing capabilities has recently caught some mainstream attention after models were sold for test firing purposes to Americas own elite Marines. The weapon system even made a debut on "Future Weapons" the previous year [/url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2mJyga3ZVo[url].
The AA-12 is not all that meets the eye; it is much more. Capable of firing an assortment of fin stabilized grenade rounds ( Frag 12, armored piercing, fragmentation) at 120 rounds per minute up to an effective range of 175 meters (accuracy at 200 meters is said to be possible in the hands of an expert): while sustaining an unbelievably low recoil.
The Bolter and the AA-12 have such staggering similarities
Bolter fires .75 cal bolts while the AA-12 Fires .729 High explosive/Armored piercing/ fragmentation shells
capabilities to combat any armor type due to specialist ammunition
the rounds are like small grenades, or "mini rockets"
extreme accuracy due to ammunition (the frag 12 rounds the AA-12 uses actually have stabilizing fins that deploy after being fired)
I was surprised I had never seen any talk of it on any 40k forums. With new light weight ballistic resistant plastics to suit infantry armor and bionic technology rapidly advancing, the day of the iconic space marine "sword and shield" may already be upon us (minus the genetics... some things cannnot even be fathomed)

I saw the AA-12 in CoD6 initially (*waits to get blasted by professionals*), and I didn't really think of a Boltgun at first. But the AA-12 is a shotgun, the Boltgun fits the role of a rapid-fire grenade launcher, similar to the M32.

You may have heard that excuse and comparision many times before but it's what I genuinely think that the Boltgun is similar to. It has a few similarities to the AA-12, but nothing that makes you immediatly think "Boltgun!"

Yeah aa 12 doesnt remind me of a bolter at all =x

and I didn't really think of a Boltgun at first. But the AA-12 is a shotgun, the Boltgun fits the role of a rapid-fire grenade launcher, similar to the M32.

The M32 fires a 40 mm shell, while the bolter fires a .75 caliber round, that can be translated to a bolt round being 19 mm. thats a huge gap between the bolter and the m32. The AA-12 firing the high explosive rounds; a .729 caliber is quite literally a rapid fire grenade launcher much closer to the specifics of the bolter, when i compare the aa-12 to the bolter, I am only making the comparison with the AA-12 using the HE rounds NOT buckshot

I've seen this AA-12 and no, I didn't think of the bolter. I'm not that impressed with this toy.

Will someone please explain to me why I want a Hi-Ex. round fed into an automatic gernade launcher by an open-bolt system? Can you say slamfire?

It's been my opinion that when a manufactorer says that a firearm requires zero-cleaning what they really mean is "When this thing f---- up, there's not a whole lot you can do to fix it".

So yeah, it looks cool but I think they flew too close to the sun with this one.

Will someone please explain to me why I want a Hi-Ex. round fed into an automatic gernade launcher by an open-bolt system? Can you say slamfire?

The AA-12 has fired many rounds during its development, and there was a minor problem with slamfire (buckshot, not HE rounds that misfired, otherwise there would have been a certain death) in the 90's, but that was actually fixed in the previous model before the most current 2005 model. In the rigorous military and developmental testing, there has actually not been any accounts of slamfire. The U.S Marine Corps commandants would never even contemplate purchasing this weapon if there was the slightest chance of slamfire. although the idea of a weapon that dosent have to be cleaned it pretty far out (even an AK needs to be cleaned time to time ) I will say that only time will prove the effectiveness of this weapon. and for that fact, it remains why I have been so interested in this weapon. If so, it very well can revolutionize modern warfare

a shotgun is nothing like a bolter. shot vs. mini rpg's, not that much alike.

now if GW would give imperials an equivalent shotties would be taken much more. nothing crazy maybe just s3 ap- ass.4(maybe even ass3) not OP but fun and effective and actually give more use for shotguns.

The AA-12 has Frag rounds, which IMO are very much like a Bolter.

If you want to see some sort of real bolter/boltgun, just look up gyrojets. The bolter-like weapon exists (though rather ineffective, they did not have the technology at the time to improve their performance), though it never really amounted to much of anything.

The AA-12 is a gimmick that people like just because they saw it in videogames or because DICK MACHO on Futureweapons gets a boner for it. It's been around for nearly 30 years and nobody has cared until recently.

The OICW puts me to mind of a bolter a bit, with its GL that is

Its a squareish like a bolter and the wireframe stock looks invisible, like the stockless bolter

The AA-12 is a gimmick that people like just because they saw it in videogames or because DICK MACHO on Futureweapons gets a boner for it. It's been around for nearly 30 years and nobody has cared until recently.

30 years in production has brought it to the point it is today, you cannot expect such a weapon to be perfected over night, it took some serious time to develop. And sorry, im not the video game type, and I had been interested in this weapon before i had seen it on future weapons. At verry least, the AA-12 is setting the bar higher for future weapon development

The AA-12 is nowhere near a *modern day* boltgun. Even frag rounds on the AA-12 haven't got rockets on them. The AA-12 has not got a square frame, and the bolter has either a sickle shaped magazine, or a straight magazine. AA-12 doesn't have that.

The modern equivalent is probably the rocket propelled bullet. The Magnum is probably the closest you'll come to a bolt pistol IMO. It has anti-recoil systems to aid people in firing it.

The AA-12 has not got a square frame, and the bolter has either a sickle shaped magazine, or a straight magazine. AA-12 doesn't have that

.

You cant ask for a functional weapon that looks like a bolter, what is important is it fires a variety of high explosive shells just like a bolt gun, and I was recently reading that more volatile rounds are actually under development. as far as

The Magnum is probably the closest you'll come to a bolt pistol

Magnum rounds are still just solid bullets (bullets that travel faster and hit harder), they do not detonate on, or before impact like bolt rounds

But we CAN ask for a weapon that functions like a boltgun. There is no modern weapon that functions like a boltgun.

But we CAN ask for a weapon that functions like a boltgun. There is no modern weapon that functions like a boltgun.

I dont even know if GW knows how a boltgun operates, I read the bolter is recoilless one place, then I read it has extreme recoil in another, ive also read it has reverse recoil (instead of kicking, pulling) from the outwards suction the bolts create when they fire out the muzzle
any idea what the real fluff is?

Yes. Based on an amalgamation of the most recent fluff, it is a heavy, short-barreled weapon which fires a multi-stage "shell" (complete with a shell casing, which is ejected) at high velocity. For standard ammunition, after the shell leaves the barrel the rocket propellant activates. When the shell hits a target, a tiny fraction of a second later (just enough for the shell to penetrate enough in to maximize damage) it explodes with concussive force, blasting its victim into pieces or at the very least rending a rather nasty wound and sending small amounts of shrapnel through their innards.

Boltguns use 0.75 caliber rounds, and typically have a 24 shot straight magazine, or a larger sickle mag (there are other variants, such as drum-fed clips and belt feeds). A bolt pistol with a straight magazin typically has 8 rounds.

The effectiveness of these rounds depends on how they are manufactured-- the ones manufactured for the Adepta Sororitas and Adeptus Astartes are much more expensive and a bit more effective, while the ones manufactured for Guard or civilian use are more cost-efficient versions, though still more than deadly enough. Similarly, there are many patterns of Bolters, though only two of them are true "military-grade"-- The Godwyn and Godwyn-Deaz patterns, designed for Astartes and Sororitas, respectively . The Godwyn pattern makes use of the Astartes' strength, and is heavier, bulkier, and probably closer to a large SMG, while the Godwyn-Deaz pattern is longer and closer to a rifle or carbine (mind you, there ARE actual bolt carbines out there).

Against humans, bolter shells are actually overkill. They're designed to face off against such beings as Orks, whom have ludicrously durable biologies and thus require the extra firepower. Similar to trying to use a WWII anti-tank rifle against a human (if it had explosive ammunition).

After looking at the video... equating the AA-12 to a Sternguard boltgun isn't too much of a stretch... a gun that fires a variety of rounds... relatively long range (and lets face it... 40k rounds are ridiculously short ranged to accommodate tabletop gaming), some are specialized for AP, some are frag (ignore cover), etc. It may not work *like* a bolt gun, but it seem's to me to be close to a functional equivalent.

And technically speaking a lasgun is a functional equivalent of an autogun, but they're still vastly different.

A weapon like a bolter, on the modern battlefield, would be completely useless. No stock means it would be hideously difficult to fire accurately. A short sight radius means that even if you attach a stock, you aren't getting decent accuracy. It would weigh as much as a light machinegun, and the ammunition would be a nightmare to carry.

It's grimdark. It's cute. It works in 40k. It would be a detriment on the modern battlefield.

The most effective weapon on the modern battlefield is the radio. Crewserved weapons and artillery account for more casualties than everything else combined. Warfare is a logistics game, and the bolter is a logistical clusterfeth.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:A weapon like a bolter, on the modern battlefield, would be completely useless. No stock means it would be hideously difficult to fire accurately. A short sight radius means that even if you attach a stock, you aren't getting decent accuracy. It would weigh as much as a light machinegun, and the ammunition would be a nightmare to carry.

Yes-- if a modern human wielded it.

A few notes, however:

1: Power armored troops often have a link-up with their weapon, allowing them to see exactly where it's pointed. The boltgun is best fired in single rounds anyway, one shot per target (anything more is wasteful).
2: The weight is a non-issue given that both sets of troops who use it are in powered armor to begin with.
3: In the modern battlefield, you only fight humans.

And technically speaking a lasgun is a functional equivalent of an autogun, but they're still vastly different.

Well, yes, if were speaking in terms of codex... but we all know far from fluff the codexes can be. In terms of where the bolter stands in the 40k universe and where the AA-12 stands now, they are basically the equivalent; although I do not mean the AA-12 today could come close to matching the "fluffwise" power and accuracy Bolter. the fluff is simply too much to stand up to

kennyalhavg wrote:

And technically speaking a lasgun is a functional equivalent of an autogun, but they're still vastly different.

Well, yes, if were speaking in terms of codex... but we all know far from fluff the codexes can be. In terms of where the bolter stands in the 40k universe and where the AA-12 stands now, they are basically the equivalent; although I do not mean the AA-12 today could come close to matching the "fluffwise" power and accuracy Bolter. the fluff is simply too much to stand up to

Actually it's both in the fluff and in the codex, the lasgun and autogun fulfill the same role, do roughly the same amount of damage, have roughly the same effective rate of fire, and so on.

This topic has been discussed several times.

And yes, I think it's basically a bolter.

the lasgun and autogun fulfill the same role, do roughly the same amount of damage, have roughly the same effective rate of fire

I guess it depends on the pattern las gun and the power rating (hi-lo) they use to fire.

Melissia wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:A weapon like a bolter, on the modern battlefield, would be completely useless. No stock means it would be hideously difficult to fire accurately. A short sight radius means that even if you attach a stock, you aren't getting decent accuracy. It would weigh as much as a light machinegun, and the ammunition would be a nightmare to carry.

Yes-- if a modern human wielded it.

A few notes, however:

1: Power armored troops often have a link-up with their weapon, allowing them to see exactly where it's pointed. The boltgun is best fired in single rounds anyway, one shot per target (anything more is wasteful).
2: The weight is a non-issue given that both sets of troops who use it are in powered armor to begin with.
3: In the modern battlefield, you only fight humans.

To be fair, you can get AR15s chambered in .50 Beowulf, .458 Socom and other very heavy hitting calibers that are suited for hunting any dangerous game animal in North America, including bear. Grizzlies and Alaskan Brown Bears can weigh as much as 1,500 lbs. If you can drop a Grizzly bear with a .50 Beo, you can probably drop an Ork with it too.

It's not like humans haven't invented things that could kill Orks and Nids. But in the far future of the 41st Millennium, all artillery has a range of less than a mile.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:It's not like humans haven't invented things that could kill Orks and Nids. But in the far future of the 41st Millennium, all artillery has a range of less than a mile.

No, that's merely a misconception brought about by a lack of understanding of just how abstract the range system is in 40k.

Melissia wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:It's not like humans haven't invented things that could kill Orks and Nids. But in the far future of the 41st Millennium, all artillery has a range of less than a mile.

No, that's merely a misconception brought about by a lack of understanding of just how abstract the range system is in 40k.

QFT

If we were to use the scale that the minies are then the effective range would be dubble, even tripple what is curently used.
IE a Las-cannon would or should have a max range (taking into account atmospheric blooming) 100 inches!
I would say the effective range for a boltgun would still be short (it was ment to be a shock weapon after all), more like 30 inches where as the humble Las-gun would be 40.

As to wheather or not this rappid fire shotgun reminds me of a bolter...no, not in the lest, more like the GL used by the IG

EmilCrane wrote:The OICW puts me to mind of a bolter a bit, with its GL that is

Its a squareish like a bolter and the wireframe stock looks invisible, like the stockless bolter

You do realize that the casing is the least integral part of a gun, right? This thing can fire large, explosive rounds at full automatic and it does so with reasonable accuracy. Sure, they're not rocket propelled, but the more fuel you put into it the less explosive you can use to kill your enemy.

Although I suspect this gun would be a logistical nightmare.

Ribon Fox wrote:If we were to use the scale that the minies are then the effective range would be dubble, even tripple what is curently used.

Actually the way it was explained to me is that the further away in inches you get, the greater the distance it is. It doesn't entirely make sense when it comes to movement mind you, but basically 72" and beyond reaches into the "many kilometers" range at least, while 0-12" reaches into the "I can see the whites of their eyes!" range. The larger the distance on tabletop the more exponentially large the distance it would be IRL.