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I find it odd that people are complaining that orcs aren't competitive. Dirt cheap warmachines, chariots, fast cav and horde units. Combined with beefy characters, they're a tough nut to crack.

I blame purple sun.

*lawl-purplesun*tm


I am glad Ogres are competitive. mid tier at least.

I blame the fact that on any given turn 1/6 of their army is useless.

ShivanAngel wrote:I blame the fact that on any given turn 1/6 of their army is useless.

This is a bit of an exaggeration. True Statement: 1/6th of the time, the portion of the army that is 5 or more models and has no black orc characters in it is useless.

The key difference here is that war machines, chariots, and key units (you know, the ones worth putting a black orc character with) are not ever useless. I'll fully admit that animosity can cause problems, but it can be mitigated, and the backbone of a plan can be carried out, even if contingency plans are required for the details.

Weirdly, I'm not that afraid of Purple Sun. Orcs are cheap, their big bases mean fewer hits from the templates, and magic resistance is solid thanks to the Spirit Totem and Staff of Sneaky Stealin'.

Honestly, I think Orcs are a lot like Empire Light. Cheapish, capable troops and characters, with a good mix of war machine and magic support. Empire has real advantages in magic and war machines and cavalry, but Orcs have the infantry edge, I think. Empire is a tougher army overall since they have a lot more options, but like Empire, Orcs have something to bring to all phases of the game, and do it cheap enough to have it in one army.

HoverBoy wrote:I blame purple sun.

I also blame purple sun

It's not that orcs are not competitive its just that they are mid range, which is good. Mid range is more fun to play and play against then an army that if deployed right is most likely an insta win *cough-7th ed. daemons-cough*

Exodus2013 wrote:It's not that orcs are not competitive its just that they are mid range, which is good. Mid range is more fun to play and play against then an army that if deployed right is most likely an insta win *cough-7th ed. daemons-cough*

prime example there! nobody can truly say that chaos daemons were not severly high tier in 7th. Thus, with 8th, we have tiers to represent the daemons of the new editions to come.

Surtur wrote:I find it odd that people are complaining that orcs aren't competitive. Dirt cheap warmachines, chariots, fast cav and horde units. Combined with beefy characters, they're a tough nut to crack.

People complain that they aren't competitive because of animosity when you start relying on a unit they spend a turn squabbling and get flanked. But other then that orc and goblins are quite good.

I have to agree that Orcs can actually be very good, especially with this edition.

1. Cheap troops at T4.
2. Cheap warmachines.
3. Cheap chariots - goblin chariots at Str 5 and Mvt 9?
4. Animosity - yes its a pain sometimes, but with decent placement of black orc characters (which you can take more of now), you'll be fine.
5. WAAAGH is almost broken now in 8th. Take a Lvl 4 shaman and cast WAAAGH the same turn you declare one with your general - ouch. ASF and rerolls to hit on big units of orcs is pretty sick.
6. And finally - people are so used to them being pretty crappy in 7th, they aren't prepared for them in 8th. I played an Orc guy last week that absolutely rolled my Skaven army. Wasn't pretty. Everything in combat by turn 2.

Ogre Kingdoms - I don't know. I wouldn't base them off tournament results (like Bayou), especially when you can figure in comp score, sportsmanship and painting.

I also think people underestimate Tomb Kings alot now - their magic is almost unstoppable, although their catapults took a big hit.
Beastmen - well - I'm still searching for the winning build, but I think the chariot spam list has some potential.

Mattbranb wrote:
I also think people underestimate Tomb Kings alot now - their magic is almost unstoppable, although their catapults took a big hit.

I've heard the exact opposite from TK players. Their magic is easy to shut down now, but the catapult works wonders.

I dont see how goblin warmachines are "dirt cheap".. Rock lobber is same price as empire mortar and BS3 bolt throwers arent even worth 35 pts regardless.. With all the negative to hit modifiers now you'll need 6s or more almost all the time

The problem with "Animosity can be mitigated with Black Orcs" should be known to anyone who has put a BOrc in a unit of Big 'Uns and for three turns in a row rolled a 1 for animosity and a 6 for number of hits caused. Yeah, you can mitigate animosity... but a few bad rolls and you can wipe out two or three of your ranks from a unit (and well over 100pts of your own models) just so your unit can function normally.

Let alone with things like Boar Boyz, who you are usually stuck either taking in huge bricks so that they can safely suffer an animosity result (See: Not have your BOrc Big Boss kill twice his points in your own army in two turns because you are bad with the dice) or small "hammer" units to give Active CR next to a brick (which then has the 1-in-6 chance of twiddling its thumbs while your Orcs keep looking for the support they aren't going to get).

Orcs are mid-tier, but Animosity isn't something you just handwave away. The closest you get is Azhag, and taking him is risky and still only covers about two-to-four units a turn with protection.

I think that problem has more to do with Big'Uns and Boar Boyz being overpriced. I've found the other units can reasonably handle animosity.

Also it would be good if big 'Uns had a similar rule as the dwarf longbeards (old grumblers rule) but for animosity that might justify their cost.

To be clear, I don't think O&G are top tier, but I do think they are not lower than middle tier. They've got plenty of weaknesses, but they have the tools to win against any army.

I would swap daemons with high elfs, i know they have taken a hit this edition but there still powerful and flamers still rock, and i think high elfs are maybe even below warriors of chaos aswell tbh.

Djones I would be curious to see what level game those TK players are playing that say their magic is easily stopped. So 2500 game (seems to be the new tournament standard) - here's what my sample TK would have.

1 King - 2 spells 1d6
1 High Priest - 2 spells 3d6
1 Prince - 1 spells 1d6
2 Priests - 1 spell 2d6

Say six dispel dice for your opponent, with 7 maybe unless your playing an Empire army with a crap load of Warrior Priests, your almost guaranteed to get off a spell or 2 (which is really all you need for them).

1 Dispel dice for each of the Kings spells. 1 for the prince. 2 dispel dice each for the 2 priests (unless they roll really low). Thats all 6. The High Priest - need at least 2, poss 3 for each one. Thats IF you get 6 or 7 dispel dice.

Where TK magic seems to be underpowered is that it doesn't have the spectacular results of the new magic lores. I counter that raising is always good, while being able to get free attacks (in 2 ranks now), shoot catapults or make extremely long charges possible are pretty darn good.

They are still a finesse army though, as they are vulnerable to more attacks and have crap for armor. Fast, shooty and a reliable magic phase.

I have to argue against this idea that High Elves are not top tier? If the list is made properly, the HE army is easily one of the stronger army books out there.

I have no idea where this fallacy that 8th edition Dark Elves are stronger came from, in the last edition I would agree but in this edition our strengths were improved, while many of our weaknesses were shored up by a better magic phase. In the Hard Boys tournaments if you look you will notice that we usually only lost to stuff like the Double Stanks.

I would hazard something like this:

Tier 1:
Empire
Dwarves
Lizardmen
High Elves
Skaven
Warriors of Chaos

Tier 2:
Dark Elves
Vampire Counts
Orc and Goblins
Ogre Kingdoms

Tier 3:
Wood Elves
Brettonians

Unknown:
Daemons of Chaos
Tomb Kings

Dark Elves are possibly top tier too. The thing 8th edition did is add more armies to "tier 1". Its a more balanced game now and a lot more of the armies are highly competitive.

ard boyz is going on right now and soon the new tiers will be officially established.

Right now the armies being used the most are Chaos Daemons, VC (6 purple suns), Skaven (so...many... slaves...) , Dwarfs,(Gun Line), High Elves (Teclis), and Empire

Some armies have no chance to place well due to too few players playing them, after all if everyone and thei'r grandma brings teclis he's bound to make it higher up than the heavily overlooked Ogres.

It will start to balance out.

Honestly Teclis is so powerful that there are players that are horrible generals that can use Teclis to coast through the earlier prelims.

I dont think we will see nearly as many High Elf lists winning semi's.

Yea but my example still stands:
How many good generals do you think actually brought Ogres to ard boyz to help us judge if they are indeed competitive or not?

not many, but those that did(all 4 of them) will do pretty good.

people who play ogres tend to be good generals because they need to compansate.


The problem with Teclis is that 1 feedback scroll can send him down instantly. not having any saves whatsoever is really bad against a feedback scroll.

Yea Ogres, as i said, was just an example, how about wood elves, brettonians, VC in fact any of the armies that where assumed to be weak/nerfed when 8th came along without much playtesting, as ard boyz itself didn't really give players time to playtest stuff they just brought the army they thought would be best in competitive play.

Frankly IDK if this Ard boyz will give a decent view on the actual balance of power.

there hasn't been enough time for everyone to get a hang on the new rules.

people won't have had time to adjust their playstyle or their tactics.

the rules support large blocks of cheap infantry, but i don't think there will be many blocks larger then 40(with the possable exception of Slaves and maybe marauders) as people will have to have time to purchase and assemble large quantities of troops.

Grey Templar wrote:there hasn't been enough time for everyone to get a hang on the new rules.

This.

Grey Templar wrote:
The problem with Teclis is that 1 feedback scroll can send him down instantly. not having any saves whatsoever is really bad against a feedback scroll.

Not really, you cant use a feedback scroll unless you can attempt to dispell the spell.

So unless he trows 5-6 dice at a spell and doesnt get IF, it probably wont kill him.