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i know this will generate contriversy, but the Feedback scroll doesn't reqire that you have to have been able to dispell. it is used at the same time.

"instead of dispelling" can be read as " i can't dispell, but i can use this to eat your face"


RAI: i think the FS can be used against a IF.

No it reads "instead of attempting to dispel the spell"

With IF you cannot attempt to dispel, therefor you cannot use the FS instead of attempting to dispel, since you cant attempt to dispel it.

It goes further to say on page 33 under the rules for magic.

More importantly perhaps, a spell cast with irresistable force is impossible to dispell- your opponent cannont even ATTEMPT to dispell. Go straight to step 4, spell resolution.

You would have to use the feedback scroll instead of attempting to dispel. The attempt to dispell cannot happen, because you go straight to spell resolution. Therefor the FS cannot be used.

Yea GT this is pretty common knowledge.

Mattbranb wrote:Djones I would be curious to see what level game those TK players are playing that say their magic is easily stopped. So 2500 game (seems to be the new tournament standard) - here's what my sample TK would have.

1 King - 2 spells 1d6
1 High Priest - 2 spells 3d6
1 Prince - 1 spells 1d6
2 Priests - 1 spell 2d6

Say six dispel dice for your opponent, with 7 maybe unless your playing an Empire army with a crap load of Warrior Priests, your almost guaranteed to get off a spell or 2 (which is really all you need for them).

1 Dispel dice for each of the Kings spells. 1 for the prince. 2 dispel dice each for the 2 priests (unless they roll really low). Thats all 6. The High Priest - need at least 2, poss 3 for each one. Thats IF you get 6 or 7 dispel dice.

Where TK magic seems to be underpowered is that it doesn't have the spectacular results of the new magic lores. I counter that raising is always good, while being able to get free attacks (in 2 ranks now), shoot catapults or make extremely long charges possible are pretty darn good.

They are still a finesse army though, as they are vulnerable to more attacks and have crap for armor. Fast, shooty and a reliable magic phase.

You can't raise a unit wiped out by opposing powerful magic, and TK are expensive enough for that to be a common possibility. Also, they can choose to throw one die at your low rolls for a 1 in 3 chance of failure. You can get spells off, barring unusual magic/magic items, but your opponent will choose which ones because dispelling non-Priest casts is really easy.

The problem with throwing a single dice at a low roll is that if its a 1 or two they just lost the ability to dispell with that wizard.

Also if a tomb king army got for winds of magic or something like 3-2 they are about to stomp all over you during the magic phase.

ShivanAngel wrote:
Not really, you cant use a feedback scroll unless you can attempt to dispell the spell.

So unless he trows 5-6 dice at a spell and doesnt get IF, it probably wont kill him.

It doesn't say that. So I believe you can still use it with IF. BUT the problem is that you have to roll a 5+ to wound so teclis would have had to throw 9 dice at a spell for you to statistically roll enough 5+'s to kill him.

read the post above, you cannot use the feedback scroll if the spell is cast with IF.

Also it most definitely does say you use the feedback scroll instead of attempting to dispel.

Exodus2013 wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:
Not really, you cant use a feedback scroll unless you can attempt to dispell the spell.

So unless he trows 5-6 dice at a spell and doesnt get IF, it probably wont kill him.

It doesn't say that. So I believe you can still use it with IF. BUT the problem is that you have to roll a 5+ to wound so teclis would have had to throw 9 dice at a spell for you to statistically roll enough 5+'s to kill him.

BRB, pg.33, Irresistible Force, par.7, "A spell cast with irresistible force automatically succeeds, even if the casting total is not enough to reach the spell's casting value. More importantly, perhaps, a spell cast with irresistible force is impossible to dispel--your opponent cannot even attempt to prevent the magical mayhem soon to be unleashed--go straight to Step 4, Spell Resolution."

BRB, pg.504, Arcane Items, Feedback Scroll, par.1, "When an enemy spell has been cast, a Wizard who has a Feedback Scroll can read it instead of attempting to dispel the spell."

The common consensus is that you cannot use any type of scroll, including a feedback scroll, when a spell is cast with IF. This is because you cannot even attempt to dispel a spell cast with IF and if you cannot attempt a dispel then you cannot substitute a scroll in place of a dispel that allows such substitution

In short, you cannot use any type of scroll on a spell cast with IF.

Respectfully,
DarkAngelHopeful.

I would like to point out that common consensus, doesn't matter this was already FAQ's, you can't use the Feedback Scroll vs. a IF spell. Which is why I have Teclis throw 6 dice at any spell he casts to kill that unit/character, because that damn scroll worries him a lot.

citadel97501 wrote:I would like to point out that common consensus, doesn't matter this was already FAQ's, you can't use the Feedback Scroll vs. a IF spell. Which is why I have Teclis throw 6 dice at any spell he casts to kill that unit/character, because that damn scroll worries him a lot.

Right, I only said that because the common consensus on Dakka was in fact right. Also, it didn't need to be FAQ'ed because it's pretty clear in the rules. However, since it's been FAQ'ed there isn't any question about it any more.

Ok well if they Faq'd it then thats the deal

Alot of people are comparing armies when they should be comparing lists for tiers. The list gets a bit bigger but more accurate.

For example, Wood Elf magic/gunline might be W/L 30/70 (or worse) vs most armies where Drycha might be 40/60 etc etc. It also clears up stuff like "Teclis isn't overpowered even though he pretty much forms the backbone of any HE army that wants to even try to win because I totally just shoot his unit with my empire cannons on turn 1!"

That's how you would want to build a tier anyway, and the only way a thread like this could ultimately become constructive - start building archetypical lists and come to a consensus as to their W/L over 100 games vs the other lists and then from that info attempt to generate a series of tiers.

The problem with tomb king magic is that.. sure you can get a TON of spells off. Then what? Those spells pretty much suck and so to the units you use them on with the exception of the constructs

I dont care how many S3 bow shots you have.. its not enough

Kirasu wrote:The problem with tomb king magic is that.. sure you can get a TON of spells off. Then what? Those spells pretty much suck and so to the units you use them on with the exception of the constructs

I dont care how many S3 bow shots you have.. its not enough

a little OT:

I dunno, my Dark Elves' repeater crossbows sure put a hurting on a chaos warrior unit...granted he was only 15 models strong...3 made it into combat, and were swiftly dispatched by them in combat (thank god he went great weapons, got to go first)

back OT:

So far from what I've seen, it's almost a crapshoot as to which army belongs in what tier, the only thing I can say for certain, is both daemons and VC were brought back down to earth. I also agree HE are being rated a little higher than they should, granted mostly because of teclis. But from what I'm seeing from a few tournies, is no special characters are allowed, which hurts the army a bit.

Maybe I'm trying to stay positive, since I'm playing against HE tomorrow night, most likely a teclis list, so I'll see how my DE hold up.

The difference is repeater crossbows are S4 and bows are only S3. I'm going to go out on a limb and say Skaven are ranked number one followed by Empire, Dwarfs and Dark Elves. Just my personal opinion at the moment .

i'm not too sure. I think maybe the ogres should be top, if you look at the new rules about monstrous infantry, they can fight in two ranks which is sick with the front rank receiving stomp attacks as well, not forgetting about the bull charge thingy. The leadbelchers can also fire in two ranks and so don't need to be spaced out too much and can still fire a heck load of shots, the gnoblars have also grown more effective, with the ability for them to wound on 6s, they can just spam their ranged attacks on whatever comes too close. I'm not to sure about this, because I don't play Ogres, but I think you can just spam a tonne of gut magic spells.

Wait a second... I thought High Elves were the most broken thing ever now? Why are they only 6th? /sarcasm

Renbags wrote:i'm not too sure. I think maybe the ogres should be top, if you look at the new rules about monstrous infantry, they can fight in two ranks which is sick with the front rank receiving stomp attacks as well, not forgetting about the bull charge thingy. The leadbelchers can also fire in two ranks and so don't need to be spaced out too much and can still fire a heck load of shots, the gnoblars have also grown more effective, with the ability for them to wound on 6s, they can just spam their ranged attacks on whatever comes too close. I'm not to sure about this, because I don't play Ogres, but I think you can just spam a tonne of gut magic spells.

Gut magic is weak. Too many spells needing attention and are easily dispelled next magic phase. Gnoblars are speed bumps, leadbelchers still suck. The best thing going for them is the monstrous infantry rules, but if people play against them the way I tell them to, it shouldn't be a problem. Hit them on the front and the flank at the same time with a anvil unit and hammer unit respectively and use artillery to pound them as they come.

Gut magic may not have a spectacular effects as other spells, but ignore it at your own risk.


we can cast alot of spells and draw out your dispell dice.

our magic will almost never fail to be cast.

and T6 ogres just arn't fair.


miscasts just arn't very nasty for us either since we can regenerate wounds we take from it.

Exodus2013 wrote:The difference is repeater crossbows are S4 and bows are only S3. I'm going to go out on a limb and say Skaven are ranked number one followed by Empire, Dwarfs and Dark Elves. Just my personal opinion at the moment .

Repeater crossbows are S3 AP 2x multiple shot

OK thanks for clearing that up. I have a little less fear of Dark Elves now haha.

MikeMcSomething wrote:Alot of people are comparing armies when they should be comparing lists for tiers. The list gets a bit bigger but more accurate.

For example, Wood Elf magic/gunline might be W/L 30/70 (or worse) vs most armies where Drycha might be 40/60 etc etc. It also clears up stuff like "Teclis isn't overpowered even though he pretty much forms the backbone of any HE army that wants to even try to win because I totally just shoot his unit with my empire cannons on turn 1!"

That's how you would want to build a tier anyway, and the only way a thread like this could ultimately become constructive - start building archetypical lists and come to a consensus as to their W/L over 100 games vs the other lists and then from that info attempt to generate a series of tiers.

It's a good point you make, and if you look back over this thread and others like it you'll see other people making the same point. You even get other folk posting to agree with the point... but then it just switches back to people talking about what army in general is more powerful than some other army. People... just really like the idea of some army being more powerful than some other army.

Surtur wrote: but if people play against them the way I tell them to, it shouldn't be a problem. Hit them on the front and the flank at the same time with a anvil unit and hammer unit respectively and use artillery to pound them as they come.

So just like any other unit in Fantasy then?

Don't get me wrong but from this Skaven players stand point against Ogres I am pretty much going to be devastating in the magic phase and here is the reason being. I run a Grey Seer (lvl4 wizard) with a 4+ward save and skalm (healing pot on steroids) and I roll for my 4 spells and swap the worst one out for the Dreaded Thirteenth Spell. Now heres the thing about Skaven magic, is that it is not regarded as being all that powerfull but against large units of highly expensive troops it can be lethal. The 13th spell takes a 25+ to cast so you going to need to be throwing 6 dice at it and will likely be taking an IF. On average with 6 dice the spell goes off with or without the IF. When it goes off it takes 4d6 models from the targeted enemy unit and turns them into clanrats or destroys them if you do not have the models to replace them. No saves of ANY kind allowed and it doesn't matter about your 3 wounds. On average this is 14 models. You have a horde unit of 6x3 Bulls and this kills all but 4 of them for 490 points. Maybe Ironguts 672pts then. Lets be really conservative and say the biggest unit you have is a 9 strong unit of bulls, with FC the whole unit is wiped out and this costs 365pts without gear upgrades. Now i've got to take the miscast table though most likely, worst cast scenario the Grey Seer dies, I lose my general at 320pts and another 100vp's for the general slain to you but I'm guessing your largest unit going bye bye is going to hurt a bit and I can probably get by without my magic and inspiring presence although I admit it will hut a lot. But a lot of the time the ward save and skalm should get me through to the 2nd magic phase and if this happens I'm guessing its good night Irene. It is a risky tactic for me to run but that is the life of a Skaven player, whatever you do can be highly destructive to both you and your opponent. Its a high risk and very high reward tactic and I think most definitely worth using against anyone with large units of highly expensive models.

The only thing that makes HE the least bit threatening is Teclic or a Book of Hoeth Archmage sitting in a unit with the World Dragon Banner. HEs worked in 7th because they could kill enemies and not get struck back in turn. Now they can no longer do this.

Dark Elves transitioned much better because they unit much harder on the offense and have units that can take a a few hits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Exodus2013 wrote:Don't get me wrong but from this Skaven players stand point against Ogres I am pretty much going to be devastating in the magic phase and here is the reason being. I run a Grey Seer (lvl4 wizard) with a 4+ward save and skalm (healing pot on steroids) and I roll for my 4 spells and swap the worst one out for the Dreaded Thirteenth Spell. Now heres the thing about Skaven magic, is that it is not regarded as being all that powerfull but against large units of highly expensive troops it can be lethal. The 13th spell takes a 25+ to cast so you going to need to be throwing 6 dice at it and will likely be taking an IF. On average with 6 dice the spell goes off with or without the IF. When it goes off it takes 4d6 models from the targeted enemy unit and turns them into clanrats or destroys them if you do not have the models to replace them. No saves of ANY kind allowed and it doesn't matter about your 3 wounds. On average this is 14 models. You have a horde unit of 6x3 Bulls and this kills all but 4 of them for 490 points. Maybe Ironguts 672pts then. Lets be really conservative and say the biggest unit you have is a 9 strong unit of bulls, with FC the whole unit is wiped out and this costs 365pts without gear upgrades. Now i've got to take the miscast table though most likely, worst cast scenario the Grey Seer dies, I lose my general at 320pts and another 100vp's for the general slain to you but I'm guessing your largest unit going bye bye is going to hurt a bit and I can probably get by without my magic and inspiring presence although I admit it will hut a lot. But a lot of the time the ward save and skalm should get me through to the 2nd magic phase and if this happens I'm guessing its good night Irene. It is a risky tactic for me to run but that is the life of a Skaven player, whatever you do can be highly destructive to both you and your opponent. Its a high risk and very high reward tactic and I think most definitely worth using against anyone with large units of highly expensive models.

Actually the 13th spell pretty much needs the Power Scroll to work. Even on a Gray Seer + 6 PD comes out to exactly 25. That does not exactly leave a lot of room of error. If it does end up casting without IF (which is most of the time if you don't have use the Power scroll) then it pretty much screams "use a Dispel Scroll right about...now".

Doesn't the 13th only work on Infantry? So that would make it pretty useless against Ogre's right?

Maxzero wrote:Actually the 13th spell pretty much needs the Power Scroll to work. Even on a Gray Seer + 6 PD comes out to exactly 25. That does not exactly leave a lot of room of error. If it does end up casting without IF (which is most of the time if you don't have use the Power scroll) then it pretty much screams "use a Dispel Scroll right about...now".

It works out, exlucing IF, to be about 50% likely. I'd expect that target level of 25 was chosen to have exactly that effect - even a powerful caster using as many dice as possible could only expect to get the spell to work around half the time. These are meant to be the big gamble spells that are cast at the height of the battle.

Of course, this is a game with craploads of options and even more players looking for the best ways to win, so it doesn't look like it's really working out like GW intended.

djones520 wrote:Doesn't the 13th only work on Infantry? So that would make it pretty useless against Ogre's right?

Why yes, yes it does only work on infantry.

Dreaded 13th cast with a lvl 4 on 6 power dice works out at -4 for his level so you need to get 21 on 6 dice, you only need 4s on all and thats cast so its around 50% but adding in the factor of getting 2 6's in 6 dice is actually more likley then you would think, dreaded 13th is rediculus because i really dont think its hard to cast.

HoverBoy wrote:

djones520 wrote:Doesn't the 13th only work on Infantry? So that would make it pretty useless against Ogre's right?

Why yes, yes it does only work on infantry.

Quoted for 100% truth.


if you try and use the 13th on Ogres i will personally hunt you down and sacrifice you to the Great Maw