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Some sort of Evil Eldar... With spikes. We should call them Dark Eldar!


Lost and the Damned. Event though I never played it, mutants in an IG army would be kinda cool.

Happygrunt wrote:Some sort of Evil Eldar... With spikes. We should call them Dark Eldar!


Lost and the Damned. Event though I never played it, mutants in an IG army would be kinda cool.

You do know that Ratlings and Ogryns are mutants, right?

I thought Ratling and Ogryns were sub-humans not mutants.

Necrosis wrote:I thought Ratling and Ogryns were sub-humans not mutants.

Last I checked, that basically means the same thing.

"Abhumans" is the proper term, and they are absolutely mutants in that mutation defines the concept of evolutionary change - which is what created abhumans.

SaintHazard wrote:Yes, but I'd argue that that's exactly what we do on the tabletop.

We don't fight enormous battles with thousands of frontline troops trading shots most of the time. I mean, Guard players can, but that's the exception, not the rule.

What we see on the tabletop is a small snippet of a battle, lasting a few minutes in realtime, that involves taking and holding a specific objective (or objectives), or sweeping and clearing a force of equal size.

The tabletop is on a small enough scale that seeing Deathwatch marines lined up is alright with me.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with you - the Deathwatch does not commit troops to major military actions. But then I don't think that the tabletop really simulates major military actions.

See, but again there's the thing.

While what we're seeing on the tabletop is a small snippet of a battle...it's still a small snippet of a major battle, if the background for the forces involved are to believed at least.

Space Marines don't get involved in just any old border war or civil action, just like the Guard don't get involved in them either. The PDF, Adeptus Arbites, and Ordo Hereticus are for that. The fact that the Guard or Marines are involved, period, escalates it up to "Dire Circumstances".

Deathwatch, Grey Knights, the Inquisition...I can see them showing up for Dire Circumstances.
But the Deathwatch and Grey Knights would be countering specific targets, and never really be seen by the other forces involved.

The whole idea that Grey Knights will only fight daemons or that Death Watch will only fight xenos is a weak argument.

I mean lets say the Grey Knights have just sealed a greater daemon and then suddenly an Eldar strike force shows up and attacks the Grey Knights.

Or for Death Watch lets say they killed a bunch of Eldar and are about to destroy an Eldar artifact when suddenly a bunch of Thousand sons show up and attack the Death Watch marines since they want the artifact for themselves.

Also 40k is not always a major battle it could be a small strike force trying to capture something or retrieving something. GW has done this many times when doing battle reports.

Fair enough, but then what do you call Combat Patrol? Certainly not a small portion of a larger battle. What about Kill Teams?

Let's get even more abstract... a 1500 point battle between 50 Necron models and 60 Space Marine models? An IG force made up of Veterans in Chimeras versus a Dark Eldar raiding party? These do not necessarily have to be part of a "bigger picture" so to speak.

There are numerous situations on the tabletop that can be called minor skirmishes or isolated incidents. Not everything has to be part of a larger battle.

And if you want to call Deathwatch taking part in a small part of a larger battle unfluffy, that's fine, I'll agree with you - but it's just as likely to happen on the tabletop as Sisters fighting Space Marines, or Dark Eldar fighting Necrons. All highly unfluffy matchups, but it can happen on the tabletop.

kanluwen wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:well however much they may try they can never get away from their basically silly, basically fantasy origins.

Sure they can. The Eldar are no longer "Space Elves", but a highly evolved race of psykers and citizen-warriors who were created to counter a threat in the form of soulless death machines that are the harbingers of spiteful godlike-entities that devour stars and destroy civilizations to sate their hunger. That's called "evolution of a concept".

The eldar are not space elves.....? you can't be serious.......
elves are good at magic in every game. what are you even talking about? Their origins are slightly different. Every race in the game is genetically engineered by the old ones to some purpose or other. You're 100% wrong. sorry.

kanluwen wrote:

Abaddonfidelis wrote:
I don't even know what that means: "because space elves evolved from that concept." What kind of answer is that? What concept? If you can have space knights space elves space orks space ogres and space hobbits surely you can have any other fantasy race.... space vampires for instance. Of course it would be silly. 40k is silly. That's what makes it so awesome - its so silly and so over the top and crazy its great.
AF

Except 40k has gone, for the most part, away from "silly" to "grimdark".

uhhhh.... no..... no it hasn't. where are you getting this stuff from?

kanluwen wrote:
Space Orks?
They're a fungoid lifeform created by, again, the same entities that created the Eldar--but were to act as the brute force troops and shock force to break a stalemate, until something went wrong and it spiraled out of control. That's not what "orcs" are, so there's that pesky evolution of a concept in action again.

yes kan....I called them space orks... because... thats what they're called.
Let me say that again.... theyre called orks
yeesh.

kanluwen wrote:
Space Ogres and Space Hobbits?
They've never really been those two particular things, but okay. Both Ogryn and Ratlings are genetic abnormalities of human kind.

yes kan... space ogres.
Ogre
Ogryn
See the similarity? They're both big dumb and violent besides.
The ratlings have hair on their feet. hair on their feet kan. and you know what they like to do? steal and eat just like hobbits

kanluwen wrote:
Putting it simply:
They're people, like you or me, who've adapted to a world with adverse conditions that required them to adapt to their environment.
Marines...ehhhh, "space knights" is pushing it a bit too far. They're Warrior-Monks who venerate a Corpse-God out of traditions.
Are some of the Marine Chapters taking the "space knight" archetype? Sure. But that's an oversimplification, and you know it.

Putting it simply I've never seen anyone be more wrong on this site, and that's saying something.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

kanluwen wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:well however much they may try they can never get away from their basically silly, basically fantasy origins.

Sure they can. The Eldar are no longer "Space Elves", but a highly evolved race of psykers and citizen-warriors who were created to counter a threat in the form of soulless death machines that are the harbingers of spiteful godlike-entities that devour stars and destroy civilizations to sate their hunger. That's called "evolution of a concept".

The eldar are not space elves.....? you can't be serious.......
elves are good at magic in every game. what are you even talking about? Their origins are slightly different. Every race in the game is genetically engineered by the old ones to some purpose or other. You're 100% wrong. sorry.

That's actually in no way, whatsoever, true.
There's only three races(at least *confirmed* races) that have been genetically engineered by the Old Ones.
The Eldar, Orks, and Slaan.
That's not "every race in the game", or anywhere close to it.

kanluwen wrote:

Abaddonfidelis wrote:
I don't even know what that means: "because space elves evolved from that concept." What kind of answer is that? What concept? If you can have space knights space elves space orks space ogres and space hobbits surely you can have any other fantasy race.... space vampires for instance. Of course it would be silly. 40k is silly. That's what makes it so awesome - its so silly and so over the top and crazy its great.
AF

Except 40k has gone, for the most part, away from "silly" to "grimdark".

uhhhh.... no..... no it hasn't. where are you getting this stuff from?

Do you see Ork Goff Rockers running around anymore? How about any number of the "joke" units that were around during Rogue Trader?
Answer: None, at least in their original "silly" format.

kanluwen wrote:
Space Orks?
They're a fungoid lifeform created by, again, the same entities that created the Eldar--but were to act as the brute force troops and shock force to break a stalemate, until something went wrong and it spiraled out of control. That's not what "orcs" are, so there's that pesky evolution of a concept in action again.

yes kan....I called them space orks... because... that's what they're called.

That doesn't have anything, whatsoever, to do with evolving the concept now does it?
How many settings do you know of where the "Orcs" are fungi that spread via spores?
How many where the more and more they fight, the bigger they get--with no real set lifespan preventing them from continuing to live, until killed in battle?
Answer: None. 40k is the only place where such happens.

Let me say that again.... they're called orks
yeesh.

kanluwen wrote:
Space Ogres and Space Hobbits?
They've never really been those two particular things, but okay. Both Ogryn and Ratlings are genetic abnormalities of human kind.

yes kan... space ogres.
Ogre
Ogryn
See the similarity? They're both big dumb and violent besides.

And so what? Ogres in fantasy settings are a unique race, usually having a past of glorious conquest and then being cast down by lesser races who they enslaved.
Ogryn have no such past, because they're nothing but humans that have evolved to their specific environments. They're encouraged to breed by the Imperium, and spread across the planets where they would be able to survive, simply so that the Imperium can recruit them as necessary.
Let's reiterate:
Ogryn != Ogres. Are they similar? Yes. But that does not make one the other.
Dogs have four limbs, genitals, and two genders. Does that make them humans, since we share the same general characteristics?

The ratlings have hair on their feet. hair on their feet kan. and you know what they like to do? steal and eat just like hobbits

Correct term is "Halfling" by the by. And thievery isn't a common trait for them, which knocks that theory right out the window.
They're dexterous enough to succeed at it, but it's not "Oh I'm a Halfling. I'm required, by racial law, to knick this and this and this".
And just like Ogres...they are, in fantasy settings, their own unique race not an offshoot of humankind as they are in 40k.

kanluwen wrote:
Putting it simply:
They're people, like you or me, who've adapted to a world with adverse conditions that required them to adapt to their environment.
Marines...ehhhh, "space knights" is pushing it a bit too far. They're Warrior-Monks who venerate a Corpse-God out of traditions.
Are some of the Marine Chapters taking the "space knight" archetype? Sure. But that's an oversimplification, and you know it.

Putting it simply I've never seen anyone be more wrong on this site, and that's saying something.
AF

Putting it simply, I've never seen anyone fail more miserably to grasp the concept of "similarity" and "carbon-copy".

why is it these threads always degenerate into a argument between Kanluwen and Abbadonfidelis.

Id like to see a Mechanicus list, that would be cool with me. But Id also like to see an army based off the Predators ( Yrraska if I remember right) cause they would look really cool and be yet another elite army with very few models trolling across the field. They would be sweet, all plasma range weapons without gets hot, all with a bonus to cover saves, all with really wicked close combat stats. High points cost, low unit strength and deep striking. It would be awesome and silly all at once. Throw in a few of those dogs from the new movie and maybe a pack of the "Hard meat" ( aliens from the aliens movies) and you got a twisted hard to use effectively and unbalanced army that will fit right in, in about 3 codex time. Im on board, but as has been previously posted there are enough damn armies already and we really dont need one more. Sad but true.
While something can be done it dosnt always mean it should be done. And it definitely should not be done.
Thats my two bits.

Grey Templar wrote:why is it these threads always degenerate into a argument between Kanluwen and Abbadonfidelis.

I've never actually seen this guy before now.

But quite frankly, I'd say it's because there's really no new armies that really need a Codex.

Not with the fact that there's several Codices that still actually need to be redone.

Kan
the only thing dumber than your ideas would be me trying to talk you out of them. I dont see any reason to continue this conversation.
AF

What conversation?
It's been nothing but you slinging insults when your precious ideas are shot down.

Which, interestingly enough, only seems to happen with the people who don't think their ideas through completely before posting them. Take a peek into Proposed Rules for examples.

Furthermore:
Games Workshop really needs to buckle down and finish what they've started.
Necrons, Tau, the Inquisition, Dark Eldar...they need to be actually be finished before attempting anything new.
They need to be fleshed out to the point of being as fully explored as the Astartes and the Imperial Guard.
Would new armies be cool? Sure.
Are they going to happen anytime soon, beyond Forge World introducing them or being a campaign army list?
Probably not.
Look at "13th Company", "Ulthwe Strike Force", or "Lost and the Damned". There was hardly anything necessary for them to produce, they wrote up the rules and voila. You had three brand new sublists, along with the "Cadian Shock Troops" army list(which formed the basis of the Imperial Guard codex that came out a few months later).
That's the kind of thing you'll potentially see as "new armies".
A one-shot deal that will not be updated as editions go on.

As an aside regarding the background issue for armies being introduced:
I can understand this being too complicated for you, but the long and short of it is this:
When you've already got an established setting--you need to work within those boundaries. Look at the fallout still cropping up from Tau being introduced.
Hell why not look at, for another example, the fallout still aimed at George Lucas for the "Star Wars" prequels and the "Clone Wars" cartoons.

Things need to be introduced gradually, not just crammed in there.

DARK TAU or tau-nids

If you'll check.... you're the one who got the insults started by calling my space vampire idea stupid. If you dont like being insulted.... try not doing it yourself. Its not like anyone really gives a damn what you think about it anyway, so try being polite when you disagree, k? I wouldnt have given you a hard time about your (admittedly slowed) idea that 40k isnt fantasy in space if you hadn't gone there 1st.
AF

You want to play the mechan-a-whatever marines? Fine pick a Space Marine codex, play with lots of vehicles on the table and paint it your way. Want to play 13th company with space wolves? Fine, use the rules that already exist, model/paint them your way and give them your own names. You want Ordo Xenos? Again, pick a codex, use the hundreds and hundreds of special rules that already exist, paint it your way, call it what you want.

Noticing a pattern here? These are 'fluff armies' that do not deserve the entire process of 'new' models (if you can call any model made in the last decade for space marines new) new books, new rules so on and so on.

New codexes should bring something actually NEW to the game. Do any fantastic, incredible, super special army ideas do anything NEW for the game? If not, stop suggesting them.

Also, fix the codexes that already exist.

they actually have mecha marine models.... they're pretty cool too.

the plural of codex btw is codices not codexes. pet peeve.
AF

I'd hate to see ANOTHER imperial codex unless they meld DH and WH into a single Inquisition codex and the Marine chapters into a single codex...however if I was forced to choose an imperial codex it would be Ad-mech.

What I'd love to see would be an entire race of true psykers. The units would work something along the lines of a combination of orks and psyker battle squads. The leadership of the units would equal the number of models in the unit (instead of being fearless with over 10 models, they would auto pass any psychic test unless they rolled double 6s) and many of the powers effectiveness would be based on the number of models left in the unit. The average base stat lines would be terrible, something along the lines of gretchin, however many of the powers would be able to buff thier own stats considerably, or debuff the opposition. Lots of leadership reducing abilities with forced morale checks could be fun. I've thought about making a fandex for it, but really haven't gotten around to it.

I'd opt for Exodites, a more primitive race.
Here is a codex: http://www.40konline.com/community/index.php?topic=58237.0

I'd really like to see the Tau add and upgrade there minion races.

Other than that, I really think there needs to be a Chaos legions book to come and give some justice to the CSM players, since they are the 2nd largest played army and the enemies in almost every novel.

Any other new race in my opinion should have the same basis as WHFB ogres. Bigger models with multiple wounds and higher toughness/strength concept with different arrays of weapons.. Just my thoughts

Now don't get me wrong, I like space pirates (CSM) as much as the next guy, but they don't need it. Not right now anyway. There are older codices that need a revamp much more then CSM. DE, Necrons, DH, WH, Eldar, Orks, BT (ya, I know, moar spess marheens hurr, work with me here!), they all are in line for a new codex before CSM.

give the tau loxatl!!! I think the kroot are just as violent and savage as they eat their kill in the middle of battle. Since they are mercenaries...it could happen. Its a stretch but it could happen lol.

Loxatl are a "Chaos" breed, and I get the sneaking suspicion that after the Sabbat Worlds Crusade they were wiped out by Imperial forces.

Either way, not necessary for the Tau to have yet another "mercenary" breed in their army roster.
There's other races within the Tau Empire that don't just fight for money and would be far, far more interesting to see.

Kanluwen wrote:Loxatl are a "Chaos" breed, and I get the sneaking suspicion that after the Sabbat Worlds Crusade they were wiped out by Imperial forces.

Either way, not necessary for the Tau to have yet another "mercenary" breed in their army roster.
There's other races within the Tau Empire that don't just fight for money and would be far, far more interesting to see.

I agree with Kan on this. The Tau have many many races that fight for them, and those need an expansion within the Tau codex.

I think GW should buy some of the Fandexes. the 5th ed. kroot Mercs and The Angry Marines come to mind.

Angry marines are a joke.

a good one at that, but still a joke.



Kroot Mercs was actually an official codex once avaliable only in PDF format.

To be honest as much as i like any other army i would prefer some sembelance of balance so GW should wrap up the Inquisition into 1 codex and maybe make them availible as allies maybe not.
They should also re-new Dark Eldar and possibly Necrons although the Space Marine codices should be ok in my opinion for a while although the Black Templars and maybe the Dark Angels need updating not a complete overhaul mind but an update.

I think they should make a codex with little fluffy cute things!

They would be very stupid but think about it, you wouldn't want to kill them!!!!