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If I were on a fishing vessel in international waters (dunno if this takes place out there or not, but whale wars for example) Id just shoot the crazies. Nuff said, give me my paycheck. Infact, Id shoot the basterds, then take their ships back to port for salvage. No more fishing for this entrepreneur

Hmm how about for an encore the guy heads to Sweetwater, TX to stop the annual corralling, capture, Torture, display and killing of hundreds if not thousands of Rattlesnakes?

Oh.. riiight... Rattlesnakes are not "cute, intelligent, mammallian creatures."

helgrenze wrote:Hmm how about for an encore the guy heads to Sweetwater, TX to stop the annual corralling, capture, Torture, display and killing of hundreds if not thousands of Rattlesnakes?

Oh.. riiight... Rattlesnakes are not "cute, intelligent, mammallian creatures."

That and snakes taste good when BBQed

I don't see a problem with the fishermen doing this once a year dolphin hunt as long as it's within the laws of their country and the regulations of their fishing department (if they have one). Also, if the dolphin experts are saying that this once a year hunt is not decreasing the population then they are good to go on not endangering the species.

What if these dolphins are akin to deer in certain parts of the US? If people didn't hunt deer (also natural predators) then I remember something about how they would grow and re-populate at a ridiculous rate and would then be a burden on our society.

I understand the guys motives, I think, but I think there is a fine line between breaking laws and not breaking them for your cause.

Truth be told, I haven't seen either of the documentaries, but I'm not one for radical fanaticism on either a right or leftist agenda. I like balance.

The only way to change a law, is to challenge it
If you don't like japonese policy reguards whales and dolphins.
Don't buy japonese products, as a way of showing your dislike.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Edit: Alright...but what if I don't want to eat cod or a cow? What if I want....chimpanzee? Or reindeer? (Reindeer meat is actually quite good mind you. Like a mix of beef and veal.....) Do I not have the right to eat what I want?

What if I want to rape and murder someone? Do I not have the right to rape and murder whomever I want? Well, no.

Applying 'biblical literality' to laws and articles of a constitution is unbelievably shortsighted. Laws can change. They are man-made, after all. You can't expect a situation that benefits a small(ish) group of people to spontaneously change overnight without doing anything about it.

I'd also like to point out that I don't give a gak about dolphins. Or Japan.

Also remember, it's abhorrent to US. To western civilization. Western civilization is NOT always right. What right do we have to look down on others and say they're 'abhorrent'?

So you're OK with honour killings, female circumcision, the right to rape and beat your spouse, Child labour, women being stoned to death for adultery and other such wonderful legal rights? I reserve my right to look down from a great height upon cultures that accept these barbaric practices. I can see that you are trying to have an even-handed view, one which I'm sure you imagine makes you a good person, but to my mind you are incredibly naive and may even have an authority fetish. Something being law doesn't necessarily make something right, and something taking place 'over there' doesn't necessarily make it none of our business.

Albatross wrote:

Also remember, it's abhorrent to US. To western civilization. Western civilization is NOT always right. What right do we have to look down on others and say they're 'abhorrent'?

So you're OK with honour killings, female circumcision, the right to rape and beat your spouse, Child labour, women being stoned to death for adultery and other such wonderful legal rights? I reserve my right to look down from a great height upon cultures that accept these barbaric practices. I can see that you are trying to have an even-handed view, one which I'm sure you imagine makes you a good person, but to my mind you are incredibly naive and may even have an authority fetish. Something being law doesn't necessarily make something right, and something taking place 'over there' doesn't necessarily make it none of our business.

I don't believe that rape and honor killings are equivalent to dolphin hunting.

Bit of a leap there, don't you think?

Monster Rain wrote:

Albatross wrote:

Also remember, it's abhorrent to US. To western civilization. Western civilization is NOT always right. What right do we have to look down on others and say they're 'abhorrent'?

So you're OK with honour killings, female circumcision, the right to rape and beat your spouse, Child labour, women being stoned to death for adultery and other such wonderful legal rights? I reserve my right to look down from a great height upon cultures that accept these barbaric practices. I can see that you are trying to have an even-handed view, one which I'm sure you imagine makes you a good person, but to my mind you are incredibly naive and may even have an authority fetish. Something being law doesn't necessarily make something right, and something taking place 'over there' doesn't necessarily make it none of our business.

I don't believe that rape and honor killings are equivalent to dolphin hunting.

Bit of a leap there, don't you think?

Likewise with comparing dolphins to crabs

Cane wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Albatross wrote:

Also remember, it's abhorrent to US. To western civilization. Western civilization is NOT always right. What right do we have to look down on others and say they're 'abhorrent'?

So you're OK with honour killings, female circumcision, the right to rape and beat your spouse, Child labour, women being stoned to death for adultery and other such wonderful legal rights? I reserve my right to look down from a great height upon cultures that accept these barbaric practices. I can see that you are trying to have an even-handed view, one which I'm sure you imagine makes you a good person, but to my mind you are incredibly naive and may even have an authority fetish. Something being law doesn't necessarily make something right, and something taking place 'over there' doesn't necessarily make it none of our business.

I don't believe that rape and honor killings are equivalent to dolphin hunting.

Bit of a leap there, don't you think?

Likewise with comparing dolphins to crabs

If you say so. Crabs and Dolphins are both sea creatures that can be legally fished for, and rape is generally considered to be a rather serious crime by civilized standards.

I don't see the two issues to be remotely comparable.

Its a "bit of a leap" to compare crabs and dolphins was the point

Wouldn't Dolphin hunting be generally considered a serious crime by civilized standards as well? The morality behind dolphin hunting and captivity leaves a lot to be desired as well.

Cane wrote:Its a "bit of a leap" to compare crabs and dolphins was the point

Wouldn't Dolphin hunting be generally considered a serious crime by civilized standards as well?

No, not really. The species in question isn't endangered and the hunt is being conducted within the bounds of Japan's laws.

If they were doing this to people you would have a case.

Monster Rain wrote:

Albatross wrote:

Also remember, it's abhorrent to US. To western civilization. Western civilization is NOT always right. What right do we have to look down on others and say they're 'abhorrent'?

So you're OK with honour killings, female circumcision, the right to rape and beat your spouse, Child labour, women being stoned to death for adultery and other such wonderful legal rights? I reserve my right to look down from a great height upon cultures that accept these barbaric practices. I can see that you are trying to have an even-handed view, one which I'm sure you imagine makes you a good person, but to my mind you are incredibly naive and may even have an authority fetish. Something being law doesn't necessarily make something right, and something taking place 'over there' doesn't necessarily make it none of our business.

I don't believe that rape and honor killings are equivalent to dolphin hunting.

Bit of a leap there, don't you think?

They are things which are legal and/or widely accepted in other countries. Do you think that they are wrong?

Japanese laws which constantly clash with the rest of the civilized world. Just because its a law, doesn't mean its truly civilized

And yes it is a "bit of a leap" to compare crabs to dolphins beyond just the letter of the law.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although there are endangered crabs too IIRC, off the coast of Japan nonetheless and across the world...and even a species isn't endangered, doesn't meant the numbers are high enough to sustain such practices. Then there's the morality involved with harvesting and capturing intelligent and complex creatures.

KingCracker wrote:If I were on a fishing vessel in international waters (dunno if this takes place out there or not, but whale wars for example) Id just shoot the crazies. Nuff said, give me my paycheck. Infact, Id shoot the basterds, then take their ships back to port for salvage. No more fishing for this entrepreneur

Oh yeah, that makes perfect sense. Let's kill them because they disagree with us killing whales in a protected whale sanctuary. That'll show 'em who's boss. Oh yeah, it'll also land you in jail.

Thirty Ignorance points for you, and an extra moron bonus.

The entire world has laws that conflict with each other. The difference between laws that conflict over fishing and things like honor killing and rape is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. That clearly lists down what the rights of human beings are, and the entire world has agreed to that document. And there we have the difference. It's universally recognized that things that you listed are considered violations of the Universal Declaration, and such are universally considered wrong.

However, their is no Universal Declaration of Dolphin Rights that says that they can not be hunted or fished. THAT is the difference between finding laws that allow hunting dolphins 'horrendous' versus laws allowing rape or child labor.

ChrisWWII wrote:The entire world has laws that conflict with each other. The difference between laws that conflict over fishing and things like honor killing and rape is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. That clearly lists down what the rights of human beings are, and the entire world has agreed to that document. And there we have the difference. It's universally recognized that things that you listed are considered violations of the Universal Declaration, and such are universally considered wrong.

However, their is no Universal Declaration of Dolphin Rights that says that they can not be hunted or fished. THAT is the difference between finding laws that allow hunting dolphins 'horrendous' versus laws allowing rape or child labor.

So you would accept that if broad agreement was reached by the rest of the world that what the Japanese fishing industry is doing is wrong then that should override their laws?
And how do you imagine such broad agreement is reached? Spontaneously? Or do you think it might take the actions of a few individuals to highlight the issue?

Would you like a clue?

Monster Rain wrote:
No, not really. The species in question isn't endangered and the hunt is being conducted within the bounds of Japan's laws.

If they were doing this to people you would have a case.

True, they aren't endangered. But you say that as if there is no possibility that they will ever become endangered. Elephants weren't always endangered. Neither were great blue whales, gorillas, hundreds of shark species, bird species, species of fish, wolves, etc. Over hunting/fishing what have you, is what caused these species to become endangered, or in the worst cases entirely killed off and extinct. You are kidding yourself if you do not think this is a big deal. If the slaughter of tens of thousands of dolphins a year continues, dolphins may be next. There are already species of dolphin that are endangered, such as Maui's Dolphin which is near exticntion, because people have killed them indiscriminately.

And as for the fact that it is conducted within the bounds of Japan's laws, that doesn't make it any less wrong. History is littered with examples of things that were obviously wrong, but protected by the "law". A large factor of this being legal is that if people don't know that it is going on, they aren't going to try and change it. That's why this guy is breaking trespassing laws, to try and make people aware of what is going on, so that they CAN stop it from continuing. You can't stop something from happening if you don't know that it's happening in the first place.

Cane wrote:Japanese laws which constantly clash with the rest of the civilized world. Just because its a law, doesn't mean its truly civilized

And yes it is a "bit of a leap" to compare crabs to dolphins beyond just the letter of the law.

I happen to think that there is a greater gap between humans and dolphins than between dolphins and crabs, from a standpoint of moral equivalency to their being raped or murdered or what have you. If you don't, it would seem that we have reached a fundamental disagreement.

rubiksnoob wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:
No, not really. The species in question isn't endangered and the hunt is being conducted within the bounds of Japan's laws.

If they were doing this to people you would have a case.

True, they aren't endangered. But you say that as if there is no possibility that they will ever become endangered. Elephants weren't always endangered. Neither were great blue whales, gorillas, hundreds of shark species, bird species, species of fish, wolves, etc. Over hunting/fishing what have you, is what caused these species to become endangered, or in the worst cases entirely killed off and extinct. You are kidding yourself if you do not think this is a big deal. If the slaughter of tens of thousands of dolphins a year continues, dolphins may be next. There are already species of dolphin that are endangered, such as Maui's Dolphin which is near exticntion, because people have killed them indiscriminately.

And as for the fact that it is conducted within the bounds of Japan's laws, that doesn't make it any less wrong. History is littered with examples of things that were obviously wrong, but protected by the "law". A large factor of this being legal is that if people don't know that it is going on, they aren't going to try and change it. That's why this guy is breaking trespassing laws, to try and make people aware of what is going on, so that they CAN stop it from continuing. You can't stop something from happening if you don't know that it's happening in the first place.

Out side of a few noisy protesters and horrified people on the internets, I really don't see this being that big of an issue. Westerners think dolphins are cute and smart, so we get mad at Japan for hunting them. Hindus think cows are Sacred, and yet we enjoy or big macs or steak or whatever.

Comparing it to honor killings of humans is just silly, if you'll forgive me for saying so.

Ok.. so dolphin drive hunting is a bad thing huh?

Where are the videos from the Solomon Islands in the South Pacific, the Faroe Islands in the North Atlantic, and Peru in South America. They use similar and sometimes even more barbaric methods such as driving the dolphins onto the beach.

Also Japan has a set quota on ALL dolphin fishing methods.

The quota set by the government for the species that were targeted in drive hunts that year allowed for the capture of 685 Striped Dolphins, 1,018 Bottlenose Dolphins, 541 Risso's Dolphins, and 369 Southern Short Finned Pilot Whales. The quota applies to all hunting methods.

Thats just over 2600 animals per year and this "hunt" takes place in one location once a year, so those numbers are rarely if ever met.

But it is bad because dolphins, porpoises, and small whales are supposedly intelligent, cute, and mammals.

There are no laws on rounding up Rattlesnakes for the purposes of entertainment, abuse, torture, death and consumption. Last year in Stillwater, TX, 13,128 lbs. of Western Diamondbacks were taken, with a 51 year total of over 300,000 lbs taken. At an avreage weight of 2 lbs each, thats over 6500 snakes last year alone.

But snakes are not supposedly intelligent, cute, and mammals.

If you are going to protest one inhumane hunt that is heavily regulated by the laws of the host country, why not protest the carnival like atmosphere that surrounds things like The Rattlesnake Round up? Hell, Stillwater even has Girlscouts selling cookies and such.

Albatross wrote:
So you would accept that if broad agreement was reached by the rest of the world that what the Japanese fishing industry is doing is wrong then that should override their laws?
And how do you imagine such broad agreement is reached? Spontaneously? Or do you think it might take the actions of a few individuals to highlight the issue?

Would you like a clue?

If after discussion in an international forum, and the ruling of the world was that we need to stop hunting dolpins, then yes. I would say that give us the right to override their laws. But I think that in order to get a ruling of that scale there must be extremely DAMNING evidence against dolphin hunting.

You are giving me a false-dilemna fallacy there. It doesn't have to be spontaneous, nor does it have to take the actions of a few individuals. These types of rulings were reached by long, academic debate between politicians, scientists and other experts. That is how you would change these kinds of laws, not flagrant violations of a nations laws to make your point.

helgrenze wrote:
If you are going to protest one inhumane hunt that is heavily regulated by the laws of the host country, why not protest the carnival like atmosphere that surrounds things like The Rattlesnake Round up? Hell, Stillwater even has Girlscouts selling cookies and such.

Who says the guy behind The Cove and Blood Dolphins doesn't protest the rattlesnake roundup? I certainly feel that that is barbaric and cruel and should be stopped.

rubiksnoob wrote:

helgrenze wrote:
If you are going to protest one inhumane hunt that is heavily regulated by the laws of the host country, why not protest the carnival like atmosphere that surrounds things like The Rattlesnake Round up? Hell, Stillwater even has Girlscouts selling cookies and such.

Who says the guy behind The Cove and Blood Dolphins doesn't protest the rattlesnake roundup? I certainly feel that that is barbaric and cruel and should be stopped.

Once again your opinion. You think its cruel and barbaric, but to you they're good animal while others view them as annoying pests. Whose right and whose wrong? We can't tell....and until we can tell we have to give more rights to human beings than to animals.

ChrisWWII wrote:

rubiksnoob wrote:

helgrenze wrote:
If you are going to protest one inhumane hunt that is heavily regulated by the laws of the host country, why not protest the carnival like atmosphere that surrounds things like The Rattlesnake Round up? Hell, Stillwater even has Girlscouts selling cookies and such.

Who says the guy behind The Cove and Blood Dolphins doesn't protest the rattlesnake roundup? I certainly feel that that is barbaric and cruel and should be stopped.

Once again your opinion. You think its cruel and barbaric, but to you they're good animal while others view them as annoying pests. Whose right and whose wrong? We can't tell....and until we can tell we have to give more rights to human beings than to animals.

I'm sorry, but anyone who tortures animals for amusement should have the same tortures inflicted upon them. But then again, that's just my opinion.

As far as I can tell the 'rattlesnake roundup' is just a gathering of hunters who cull the local rattlesnake population. Even going off of an anti-roundup website, there is no evidence they torture them in any way besides killing them. More importantly if you consider rounding up fish and killing them to be 'torture' than I assume you would also want to close down every ranch and slaughter house in the world as they all do the same thing.

Gathering animals for food than killing them to get that food is not torture. It is a behavior that humanity has done since we evolved as a species.

ChrisWWII wrote:As far as I can tell the 'rattlesnake roundup' is just a gathering of hunters who cull the local rattlesnake population. Even going off of an anti-roundup website, there is no evidence they torture them in any way besides killing them. More importantly if you consider rounding up fish and killing them to be 'torture' than I assume you would also want to close down every ranch and slaughter house in the world as they all do the same thing.

Gathering animals for food than killing them to get that food is not torture. It is a behavior that humanity has done since we evolved as a species.

Where did i say killing animals for food is torture?

I was assuming that's the way you were going as you claimed that the dolphin slaughter was torture, as was the rattlesnake hunt.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Gathering animals for food then killing them to get that food is not torture. It is a behavior that humanity has done since we evolved as a species.

^this^
And the point I was trying to make is that people want to protest the killing of a relatively small percentage of dolphins that is being done in a controlled and sustainable manner. They claim it is cruel and torturous due to the methods used, but then see little wrong with similar gatherings of less cute creatures.
Personally, I think Rabbit, rattlesnake, shark, gator and even squirrel are tasty morsels that should be tried by anyone.
Of course, I do stay clear of dolphin, but that is due to the high mercury levels found in the meat.

I'm totally cool with this guy breaking the law to film people killing dolphins. There is no reason to kill dolphins. I don't care if they aren't endangered, or if it's legal. Dolphins are the second or third most intelligent animal on this planet, and the respect we show to dolphins is respect we show to ourselves.

Breaking the law in defense of what is morally right is no crime. And when the law exists only to protect an immoral act, then the law is wrong and good people should not obey it.

Also, this rattlesnake argument is just stupid. Rattlesnakes and dolphins are not remotely comparable. Rattlesnakes are stupid creatures, whereas dolphins are almost as intelligent as human beings. No drowning sailor has ever been rescued by a rattlesnake, and rattlesnakes don't interact and play with humans. Kind of an important difference there.

Gailbraithe wrote:I'm totally cool with this guy breaking the law to film people killing dolphins. There is no reason to kill dolphins. I don't care if they aren't endangered, or if it's legal. Dolphins are the second or third most intelligent animal on this planet, and the respect we show to dolphins is respect we show to ourselves.

Breaking the law in defense of what is morally right is no crime. And when the law exists only to protect an immoral act, then the law is wrong and good people should not obey it.

^ ^ THIS.

Gailbraithe wrote:There is no reason to kill dolphins.

Yeah there is, for food, for the same reason we kill cod, cows, crab, sanke, etc, etc...