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Could someone please explain how a person with a long spear is in danger of having their hair pulled?
If the enemy is good enough to get past a competent fighter with a spear then they are good enough to kill you without having to grab your hair. This weird hair grabbing concept just doesn't work in real life, if you're close enough to grab hair and have the co-ordination and reflexes to grab hair that is moving about then you could just as easily as grab someone by the shoulder or arm.
The worst part about the side pigtails is that they could flick across your own eyes in a fight and provide enough of a distraction to give your opponent a chance to hit you.

In real life a single fighter with a spear doesn't keep their opponent at an especially long range. That only works in a formation where you have multiple spears covering a wider frontage. Otherwise, you keep your spear in a shorter grip so that you can use it quickly, and delivery more powerful thrusts.

Grabbing long flowing hair that's moving isn't hard, as you don't need to grab a whole bunch of if to pull someone off balance or restrain them.

SkaerKrow wrote:Your mileage may vary, I guess. But it really seems like you're grasping at straws with most of your points (or non-points), there.

How so?

He's making a lot of sense to me.

I am a long time historicals player, etc. blah blah blah.

In the sense that he's trying to turn his low aesthetic opinion about the models (which is fine) into some sort of evidence for a social commentary about women delivered through Amazon miniatures (which is ridiculous. Nearly all fantasy models, male or female, tend towards the ridiculous and less than optimal).

I see, you were responding to one point of his argument.

I agree most fantasy models of women are to a greater or lesser degree dodgy, however the Amazons are apparently a genuine historical phenomenon, embodied in the "Maiden Guards" sported by various Asian armies so it would be interesting to have a genuine historical take on them.

The Greek view of Amazons was more likely an interpretation since they probably never would have met any until Alexander's time. Perhaps it would be interesting to have models that looked like the Greek image of such warriors.

Of course they would probably make them nude, like Spartan women.

I have to agree there's no point making women warrior models who like identical to men warrior models, no matter how realistic that may be.

Wasn't the whole breast cut off thing a joke made by a Greek (male) commentator on the ridiculousness of female warriors? (Sort of a "haha, female warriors, yeah right, they'd have to lop off a breast to even shoot a bow!" thing)
I'm sure I read that somewhere.
Anyhow. I don't mind the armour, but the face on the first model is a little dodge (female faces are hard to do, and it's not the worst I've seen, but still a little dodge) but the pigtails absolutely kill it for me. Don't care about the realism (I play Warhammer after all), I just think it looks stupid and WGF would be clever if they provided non-pigtail options.

Those pigtails are quite awful. They really ruin the whole "warrior woman" effect.

Also, why all this obsession with having them topless? It seems stupid to me, as you would need plate armor on your "hills" if you were a female warrior. Still, Amazonian warrior women with tops on wouldn't sell as well, so they will probably become topless. Also, what is up with the stupid excuse for a loincloth? One gust of wind, and there would be nothing left to the imagination, which is sadly probably the look that the WGF designers want. Make a awesome, well sculpted female model in full battle armor, and it won't sell. Make a horribly sculpted, scantily clad/nude, over endowed female model, and it will sell.


_Tim, disgustedly.

I don't really see a point in even commenting on WGF stuff anymore.

If you disagree with them, and suggest ways to make said product better.... they ignore you while the fanboys flame you to no end.

If you agree with them and can think of a way to make their product even worse... they will add your idea in a second while the fanboys rejoice and claim how great in quality the product is.

Did you ever comment in the Wargames Factory forums?

They probably take more notice of what is posted there than in Dakka News.

Oh yes. I was an active member until I was so completly sick and tired of the bull from both fan's and WGF, I decided to delete my account and never return.

Myself, I vote with my money.. and so far quality wins my $$$, not quanity.

jp400 wrote:Myself, I vote with my money.. and so far quality wins my $$$, not quanity.

Unfortunately quality cannot win if the quantity is 0. Unless someone else makes plastic female miniatures in about this scale these are the best available by default.

More information for those who are interested: there are apparently 10 different heads in this set: 2 wearing Phrygian helmets, 2 wearing Corinthian helmets, 2 wearing Attic helmets and 4 bare heads.

SkaerKrow wrote:In real life a single fighter with a spear doesn't keep their opponent at an especially long range.

Of course he does, why deliberately reduce your range which gives away your advantage. Most martial artists that use spears or staffs do so in half staff because it's safer. I've seen what a staff can do to armour when swung and it's not pretty; it's much more destructive than a baseball bat and a simple change grip allows you to go from long to short range combat. Having spent a number of years involved with mediaeval style combat groups the last thing on your mind is grabbing someone's hair and the opportunity to do so is not that great anyway - there are better things to grab or knock aside.

jp400 wrote:Oh yes. I was an active member until I was so completly sick and tired of the bull from both fan's and WGF, I decided to delete my account and never return.

Myself, I vote with my money.. and so far quality wins my $$$, not quanity.

+100

why not something like this, remove the flag, the wings and the ornate helmet, change the golden armour to something more mundane, and *POOF* a clothed female miniature who looks like she could raise hell on the battlefield.



p.s. and it's even a picture of an amazon

cadbren wrote:Of course he does, why deliberately reduce your range which gives away your advantage. Most martial artists that use spears or staffs do so in half staff because it's safer. I've seen what a staff can do to armour when swung and it's not pretty; it's much more destructive than a baseball bat and a simple change grip allows you to go from long to short range combat. Having spent a number of years involved with mediaeval style combat groups the last thing on your mind is grabbing someone's hair and the opportunity to do so is not that great anyway - there are better things to grab or knock aside.

I've attended some medival combat demonstrations, and while they're visually impressive, they rarely capture the true grit of melee combat. A fight to the death is a brawl; it's not pretty, it's not entirely precise and it isn't something that you can ever recreate with civility. In a desperate fight between two people, you'd best believe that long flowing hair is a liability. Again, I'm not saying that pigtails are aesthetically pleasing or appropriate (honestly, I hate the look and I'm hoping that we see better bare head options on the sprue), but they're still a smarter choice than whipping and unfettered locks.

SkaerKrow wrote:

cadbren wrote:Of course he does, why deliberately reduce your range which gives away your advantage. Most martial artists that use spears or staffs do so in half staff because it's safer. I've seen what a staff can do to armour when swung and it's not pretty; it's much more destructive than a baseball bat and a simple change grip allows you to go from long to short range combat. Having spent a number of years involved with mediaeval style combat groups the last thing on your mind is grabbing someone's hair and the opportunity to do so is not that great anyway - there are better things to grab or knock aside.

I've attended some medival combat demonstrations, and while they're visually impressive, they rarely capture the true grit of melee combat. A fight to the death is a brawl; it's not pretty, it's not entirely precise and it isn't something that you can ever recreate with civility. In a desperate fight between two people, you'd best believe that long flowing hair is a liability. Again, I'm not saying that pigtails are aesthetically pleasing or appropriate (honestly, I hate the look and I'm hoping that we see better bare head options on the sprue), but they're still a smarter choice than whipping and unfettered locks.

I completely agree with you, but you know what would be even better than pigtails? A freaking ponytail. The use of pigtails makes no sense when a ponytail is easier to accomplish and even more effective (hanging behind you, not to the side). So yeah, howsabout a ponytail instead of pigtails WGF? I'm amazed it took this long for anyone to bring them up.

Sarrazon wrote:I'm amazed it took this long for anyone to bring them up.

I suspect it wasn't brought up because the second model with the helmet already has one.

SkaerKrow, I've not memorized every post in this thread, but I don't think anyone has called for "whipping and unfettered locks".

Some_Call_Me_Tim?, Having them be topless wouldn't be so bad. For one thing, it would be more historically accurate than the armour in the OP. For another, it would fit the Amazon mythos as there are definitely ancient depictions of naked Amazons fighting in battle. And for a third, nude female plastics would be easier to use in conversions than female plastics in ridiculous armour. I'd happily take a nude Amazon model over an Amazon model with in-effective looking armour. Though I think the second model's chest armour looks alright if they could just sort out the thickness/form-fitting problem.

As for the loincloth straps, I would like to think a proper Amazon wouldn't care what's left to the imagination. When I call for more coverage, it's not for the sake of modesty so much as for protection. The present look suggests more "helpless stripper" than "battle-hardened warrior woman".

Sarrazon wrote:I completely agree with you, but you know what would be even better than pigtails? A freaking ponytail. The use of pigtails makes no sense when a ponytail is easier to accomplish and even more effective (hanging behind you, not to the side). So yeah, howsabout a ponytail instead of pigtails WGF? I'm amazed it took this long for anyone to bring them up.

Absolutely. A ponytail or closely cropped hair would be optimal for a practical sculpt.

SkaerKrow wrote:[I've attended some medival combat demonstrations, and while they're visually impressive, they rarely capture the true grit of melee combat. A fight to the death is a brawl; it's not pretty, it's not entirely precise and it isn't something that you can ever recreate with civility. In a desperate fight between two people, you'd best believe that long flowing hair is a liability. Again, I'm not saying that pigtails are aesthetically pleasing or appropriate (honestly, I hate the look and I'm hoping that we see better bare head options on the sprue), but they're still a smarter choice than whipping and unfettered locks.

A man trained to use a staff was considered able to defeat six men armed with swords.
As for the pigtails I agree they are silly with this set but make easy conversions for other sets, the bending pose I frankly hate, it's unnatural to say the least; at least the standing one can be used in a formation or as a sentry, not that I'll be buying any of these anyway.


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JOHIRA wrote:

As for the loincloth straps, I would like to think a proper Amazon wouldn't care what's left to the imagination. When I call for more coverage, it's not for the sake of modesty so much as for protection. The present look suggests more "helpless stripper" than "battle-hardened warrior woman".

I think if such a decorative item would be worn by an Amazon it would probably be penises harvested from males killed in combat, not some silly version of the Roman cingulum.

cadbren wrote:A man trained to use a staff was considered able to defeat six men armed with swords.

Which staff technique? What kind of warriors armed with swords? You're just inventing things right now. History doesn't back up your claim, at all.

cadbren wrote:I think if such a decorative item would be worn by an Amazon it would probably be penises harvested from males killed in combat, not some silly version of the Roman cingulum.

Because the entire concept of penis skirts isn't silly at all!

SkaerKrow wrote:

cadbren wrote:A man trained to use a staff was considered able to defeat six men armed with swords.

Which staff technique? What kind of warriors armed with swords? You're just inventing things right now. History doesn't back up your claim, at all.
English staff against rapiers of the 16th-17th centuries. The classic reference appears in the work by George Silver 'Paradoxes of Defence' (1599) in which he relates a story about an Englishman captured by the Spanish. It was contended that he could take on five men armed with swords and daggers. Not six granted, I misremembered that as the actual quote referred to the staffman being able to take on any number under six.
Silver himself states that any man armed with a staff should be able to defeat any two men armed with sword and dagger. The staff in question is the english quarterstaff made of ash or oak and 8-9' long. Silver also relates an incident where an expert swordsman was defeated by a sailor armed with an oar to show the foolishness of attacking someone with a long weapon who has room to use it.



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SkaerKrow wrote:

cadbren wrote:I think if such a decorative item would be worn by an Amazon it would probably be penises harvested from males killed in combat, not some silly version of the Roman cingulum.

Because the entire concept of penis skirts isn't silly at all!

The entire concept of Amazons is silly so why not.

cadbren wrote:

SkaerKrow wrote:Because the entire concept of penis skirts isn't silly at all!

The entire concept of Amazons is silly so why not.

Because there's a difference between "not historically accurate" and "offensively bad idea"? Because anyone buying these models isn't doing it for the mutilated bodies?

AlexHolker wrote:

cadbren wrote:

SkaerKrow wrote:Because the entire concept of penis skirts isn't silly at all!

The entire concept of Amazons is silly so why not.

Because there's a difference between "not historically accurate" and "offensively bad idea"? Because anyone buying these models isn't doing it for the mutilated bodies?

Perhaps you should put the comment in context, it was in regards the Amazons as a concept, not the models and I realize that such a model accessory would be too controversial to market. As for what is offensive or not, everyone has a different opinion, thanks for sharing yours and as I said, I'm not buying these anyway.

JOHIRA= wrote:Snip...

Some_Call_Me_Tim?, Having them be topless wouldn't be so bad. For one thing, it would be more historically accurate than the armour in the OP. For another, it would fit the Amazon mythos as there are definitely ancient depictions of naked Amazons fighting in battle. And for a third, nude female plastics would be easier to use in conversions than female plastics in ridiculous armour. I'd happily take a nude Amazon model over an Amazon model with in-effective looking armour. Though I think the second model's chest armour looks alright if they could just sort out the thickness/form-fitting problem.

As for the loincloth straps, I would like to think a proper Amazon wouldn't care what's left to the imagination. When I call for more coverage, it's not for the sake of modesty so much as for protection. The present look suggests more "helpless stripper" than "battle-hardened warrior woman".

My main gripe with the loincloth straps is that they are so small, why bother? And from a sculpting sense, I would prefer to start wit a nude model, it would make sculpting armor easier. ATM, the current models look like members of a sorority, out to win some drunk frats...

And of course, nude models sell faster.

_Tim?

Miyamoto Musashi was a man trained with a sword who beat six men with staves.


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On another occasion he fought a duel using a sword whittled from an oar.

Miyamoto Musashi was a superhero.

Kilkrazy wrote:Miyamoto Musashi was a man trained with a sword who beat six men with staves.


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On another occasion he fought a duel using a sword whittled from an oar.

Interesting man. At the age of 13 he used a 6' staff to kill an older man armed with a short sword.

I see that he used an oar to carve a sword from because he wanted a really long sword to defeat his opponent with.

Do you have a link to the story about defeating the six men armed with staves, I'd like to read it.

It's in his book "Book of Five Rings" He fought the monks of a temple who had a special technique using the long poles they kept for fire-fighting.

It's in the historical notes, not one of his specific writings.

In the version of the whittled oar sword story I remember, he forgot he was meant to fight the duel, got drunk, didn't wake up in time and had to be dragged out to the duel by friends. He forgot his sword.

As the duel was to be fought on an island, they had to row out there in a boat, so he cut one of the oars down into a sword.