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BluntmanDC wrote:@kroothawk:

So full of win.

So many people think that chaos is always the cause of rebels, lots of imperial worlds have rebelled just cos they don't like taxes

Not true. Imperial worlds that have rebelled are something like 80% of the time can be traced to some form of Chaos taint. Vraks, for example, rebelled against the attempted assassination by a Vindicare of(what they believed) to be their favored Ecclesiarchy official.

In reality, the Vindicare was there to kill the official's righthand man, who was a secretive worshiper of Nurgle.

Eldar have pirates (not dark eldar, they just like the freedom).

Except the Corsairs aren't really "rebels", just like the Exodites aren't either.
They just don't live within the normal constraints of Eldar(both Dark or Craftworld) life.

Some Tau might just think they have a better way of serving the Greater Good.

Not really. Ethereals being present within every aspect of Tau society ensures that can't and won't happen.

Sorry I mis read Kroothawks post about the Tau vs DH I thought he was saying that their wern't any scenarios at all, my bad

Question: Is the Tau subservience factor genetic? And does that factor lead to their weak souls?

Like, if you were to isolate a bunch of Tau outside of the Etheral's control, would their souls grow brighter in the Warp?

MagicJuggler wrote:The simplest reason that Tau would change from their Utilitarian philosophy would be if an Ethereal-deprived Tau were to, on the ruins of a former Deathworld, find a still-preserved copy of Atlas Shrugged.

The bad writing would traumatize any species.

Considering that the Farsight Enclave hasn't been suddenly subjected to Daemonic incursions, no. Their souls don't "grow brighter" in the Warp.

And the subservience does seem to be genetic, as it is dominated by the Ethereals emitting a musk that the Tau are affected by.

How about an Etheral is attacked and Possessed/controlled by a daemon of chaos?

Or do Etherals not have enough soul presence?

Since Tau are completely loyal to their ehterals they would listen and obey and slowly be corrupted.

That assumes an Ethereal could be corrupted in the first place.

Also, the Tau wouldn't be corrupted by following the Ethereal's orders, they would just be serving as pawns.

Kanluwen wrote:Considering that the Farsight Enclave hasn't been suddenly subjected to Daemonic incursions, no. Their souls don't "grow brighter" in the Warp.

And the subservience does seem to be genetic, as it is dominated by the Ethereals emitting a musk that the Tau are affected by.

Yeah, the "glow brighter" thing is just how I remember daemons seeing souls.

Since a Tau can't be corrupted due to some abnormality in their genetics, it's highly doubtful that Ethereals which are supposed to be pure, undiluted examples of the Tau genetics could be.

Kanluwen wrote:Since a Tau can't be corrupted due to some abnormality in their genetics, it's highly doubtful that Ethereals which are supposed to be pure, undiluted examples of the Tau genetics could be.

That would be assuming that abnormality wasn't an evolution into their genetics. If the Ethereals are pure samples then they may not have that genetic code, depending on your definition of 'pure sample'.

Also if Tau act loyal to a corrupted ethereal I would still consider them corrupted while under its leadership, sure when they sit down and are ordered to do nothing they wont pillage burn or torture, but all that corrupted Ethereal needs to do is click his fingers and they will.

On a second note. It was just a thought. I wasn't stating a fact.

syanticraven wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Since a Tau can't be corrupted due to some abnormality in their genetics, it's highly doubtful that Ethereals which are supposed to be pure, undiluted examples of the Tau genetics could be.

That would be assuming that abnormality wasn't an evolution into their genetics. If the Ethereals are pure samples then they may not have that genetic code, depending on your definition of 'pure sample'.

Also if Tau act loyal to a corrupted ethereal I would still consider them corrupted while under its leadership, sure when they sit down and are ordered to do nothing they wont pillage burn or torture, but all that corrupted Ethereal needs to do is click his fingers and they will.

Chaos "corruption" requires actual physical or mental demonic influence on the target.

Of course, there's ****ing corrupted tanks and titans, so what do I know...

To be fair, Titans and Tanks do have a "soul" that can be daemonically possessed.

I mean, after all there's Daemons that infest technological constructs so I guess it's feasibly possible if there's enough computer processing equipment in Crisis Suits or Drones that they could be possessed.

Kanluwen wrote:To be fair, Titans and Tanks do have a "soul" that can be demoniacally possessed.

I mean, after all there's Daemons that infest technological constructs so I guess it's feasibly possible if there's enough computer processing equipment in Crisis Suits or Drones that they could be possessed.

That might be something specific to the Machine spirit though. But possibly.

Kanluwen wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:@kroothawk:

So full of win.

So many people think that chaos is always the cause of rebels, lots of imperial worlds have rebelled just cos they don't like taxes

Not true. Imperial worlds that have rebelled are something like 80% of the time can be traced to some form of Chaos taint. Vraks, for example, rebelled against the attempted assassination by a Vindicare of(what they believed) to be their favored Ecclesiarchy official.

In reality, the Vindicare was there to kill the official's righthand man, who was a secretive worshiper of Nurgle.

Eldar have pirates (not dark eldar, they just like the freedom).

Except the Corsairs aren't really "rebels", just like the Exodites aren't either.
They just don't live within the normal constraints of Eldar(both Dark or Craftworld) life.

Some Tau might just think they have a better way of serving the Greater Good.

Not really. Ethereals being present within every aspect of Tau society ensures that can't and won't happen.

Read what i actually said, i was saying that chaos is not always the cause and thanks to your statistic you have proved me right , corsairs represent a rebellion against the norms of craftworld live, although they still will help their craftworld brethren.

and the grand finale to your whole argument.......oh wait we have the farsight enclave to back up my point

I always hated the way everyone automatically assumes Khorne=Mass Murdering Maniac. Now its true some of the better known Khorne devoted charecters ARE of the aforementioned catagorey, lets be clear that its a sliding scale that doesnt go from "Hmm who'se this Khorne bloke" Straight to "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD ARRRGGHHH!!!"

Many of those who turned insane brutal beserkers simply started off as strong warriors with a sense of martial pride. The point is if you knew you were slipping into chaos worship, you wouldnt slip, its an insidious slide. Theres nothing to say that Farsight's blade IS a demon weapon Slowly corrupting him into khornate worship HOWEVER he isnt quite at the homicidal maniac end of the slide.

Let me put it to you, if a Tau sniper team takes considerable pride in his aim and begins to boast he is the best shot in the entire empire, as his fame and renown grows, as does his ego, could he not be slipping to slannesh worship simply by seeking to perfect his skills?

In relation to the idea that Battlesuits and the like could be possesed in the same way as titans and tanks and such. I believe (just my opinion) that the machines of the Imperium do have spirits but as with all creatures of the warp these spirits exist because the people of the Imperium and Chaos believe they exist which in turn makes them a reality (I like to call this the Freddy Kruger Affect).

The Tau on the other hand don't believe in such things, they don't have an actual religion just a single cause that has unified the race so their emotions and such don't form into "living" beings within the warp. So for the Imperium and Chaos machine spirits do exist and can be corrupted because they believe that the exist and so forth. The Tau don't believe such things and so they don't face the same problem which is why you don't see daemonicly possesed Ork or Eldar/Dark Eldar vehicles because they don't believe in machine spirits. Unless of course the Orks have looted a posseses vehicle or you consider a Wraith Lord and Wraithguard to be "machine spirits" which technicly they aren't as machine spirits are actually the soul of the machine while Eldar ghost constructs are simply machines piloted by a soul of a dead warrior.

Also I believe that the Ethereals are a survival response of the Tau. We already know that the Tau evolved relativly quickly which allowed the members of the species to better survive their chosen environments on T'au. We also know that the Tau faced a period of extinction due to their own inability to cooperate, so I believe that the Ethereals are an evolutionary response to that threat which has allowed the race to survive and prosper. Now some people see the Ethereals abilities as a form of mind controle, I don't think it works that way. I believe that the pharamones released by the Ethereals act as a sort of gentile persuasion. When combined with the psychological conditioning that every Tau recieves to obey the saviors of their race it can seem like it's mind controle but is just a very strong imperative to do as they are told.

Now the relevance that this has to renegade Tau (notice I do not say chaos Tau because Tau cannot be corrupted by Chaos) is that should an Ethereal be removed then the Tau would be left without their guidance. As with most leaders I believe that the Ethereals guidance contains truths that are hidden from the Tau in general for their own protection and betterment (as well as actions taken for the betterment of alien races within the Empire even if they don't want it). Now should a Tau of authority (O'shovah) become privy to these omited truths they may become aware of the horrors that exist in the universe and learn that not everything is as one sided as the Ethereals say.

I believe that O'shovah simply woke up and realised that in the 40k universe it is pretty much every race for itself and that the Tau are going about it the wrong way (or so he believes) and so
he has seperated himself from the main Tau Empire in order to pursue what he and his followers see as the right course of action. Should other commanders have the same experience they may very well leave the Tau Empire and join O'shovah or they may even create their own little niche in the galaxy. I believe this is the bases of having a renegade Tau army.

Ok I'm done now

BluntmanDC wrote:
Read what i actually said, i was saying that chaos is not always the cause and thanks to your statistic you have proved me right

Not really, because even things that start out with no real "Chaos" leaning end up being revealed, at their core, to have some relationship that can lead to the insurgency/rebellions being tied to the Ruinous Powers.

Corsairs represent a rebellion against the norms of Craftworld life, although they still will help their Craftworld brethren.

They'll also help their Dark Eldar cousins, what's your point?

and the grand finale to your whole argument.......oh wait we have the Farsight Enclave to back up my point

And just like I stated, the Ethereals have gone out of their way since the founding of the Farsight Enclave(which was, y'know...founded when the single Ethereal, who was accompanying an expeditionary force went outside of the inner Tau colonies, was killed. They've since made it a point so that there's dozens of Ethereals traveling alongside of Fire Caste forces) to make sure it can't happen again.

Just curious but where does it say in fluff that Tau fleets are acompanied by multiple Ethereals following the inciden with O'shovah? I've never come across that?

Then read harder, because it's in there.

Kanluwen wrote:Then read harder, because it's in there.

Umm ok? a simple page number would have worked because I was genuinly curious. Anyone else care to actually answer my question?

maybe parts of the tau forces...like the mercenaries they hire...but probably not the main castes.

DakkaDakka wrote:

^ditto.
I personally run a small Nurgle Tau army 750-1000 points... I do it for conversions and looks, not really for fluff.

As for fluff, the codex doesn't say 'impossible'...hinting towards unlikely, but the possibility is there, even if it's 0.000000000000000000000001%, I'm there . I generally just assume the wonderful odor of Grandfather Nurgle has over taken the pheramones of the Ethearals .

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Then read harder, because it's in there.

Umm ok? a simple page number would have worked because I was genuinly curious. Anyone else care to actually answer my question?

@kanluwen
look if you don't actually have any references to back up your points say so. Everyone else is having a discussion, while you are the shouty guy going 'i'm right, you know who's right? ME'

@warboss imbad ironskull
i can't find it in any of my books, but i think you ideas why they would rebel is very believable

BluntmanDC wrote:

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Then read harder, because it's in there.

Umm ok? a simple page number would have worked because I was genuinly curious. Anyone else care to actually answer my question?

@kanluwen
look if you don't actually have any references to back up your points say so. Everyone else is having a discussion, while you are the shouty guy going 'i'm right, you know who's right? ME'

Read the Tau codex, the Taros Campaign book, Medusa campaign material, et all.
There's no real specific page numbers because it's spread all over the bloody place.

@warboss imbad ironskull
i can't find it in any of my books, but I think your ideas why they would rebel is very believable

O'shovah separated himself from the Tau Empire proper not because of any realization that "it's every race for themselves".

But because of the fact that he wanted to slaughter the Orks in the sector of space where he founded the Farsight Enclaves.

There's no real xenophobia or racial superiority with O'shovah. The only reason he doesn't have Kroot or Vespid or Gue'vasa?
The fact that he's not being regularly supplied by the Tau Empire. He has no mandate to recruit those auxiliaries, no way to support them or manage them either. It's the same reason why there was a 0-1 restriction on the "new" tech like Stealth Suits, Hammerheads, Pathfinders, Piranhas, etc in a Farsight army.

Kanluwen wrote:Read the Tau codex, the Taros Campaign book, Medusa campaign material, et all.
There's no real specific page numbers because it's spread all over the bloody place.

go on just one example, pretty please

What if a Chaos Daemon posed as a Tau Commander and led them to chaos that way. They didn't realise they were following chaos, they were just following their commander's orders. Maybe the Tau could go the way of the Death Guard as well. Pray to Nurgle to stop the pain of Nurgles rot and serve him in return.

How would the deamon be able to pose as the commanded? it would require alot of energy to exist for the period of time required even to start its plan.

DakkaDakka wrote:
.

I think the Tau would notice just as well. Yes Tau are conditioned to obey the commands of an Ethereal but even they would notice something is wrong when the Ethereal orders them to cut the heads off the dead and put them in a pile or to do unspeakables to the corpses etc. Plus the Ethereals themselves that usually travel with Tau fleets answer to a higher Ethereal council so even if their subordinates woulden't notice their superiors would. And again that's assuming that an Ethereal could even be possesed which would take a ritual summoning and considering how well protected Ethereals are I doubt one could be captured. I only know of 2 examples of it happening, 1 was by the Ordos Xenos and the other was in the Fire Warrior book and that Ethereal resisted temptation even through torture and given how faint a Taus presence is in the Warp I doubt it could happen.

Also someone brought up the idea of Nurgles rot affecting the Tau and they prey to him for salvation. Tau probably can be affected by Nurgles Rot as it's a disease and even the Tyranids can be infected with it but the whole praying thing dosen't fly. In order to pray to a god you have to believe that they exist, the Tau are a secular society. They believe in a cause not in gods, so if they where affected by Nurgles Rot they would probably try and develop a cure for it instead of praying to a god that they don't believe (or know) exists. And it can't really be said that their allies would either because 1 it hasen't been stated if the Vespid have a religion and in my experience of sci-fi inscetoid aliens they don't. And 2 the Kroot worship their ancestors not gods, and they activly avoid eating worshipers of chaos to avoid corruption. I doubt that they would worship one of it's gods if they so openly avoid being tainted by it physically, though working for that gods agents is an entirely differant matter. Chances are the other Kroot would cull those who where infected, possesed or who had begun worshiping chaos.

Unless there is a major revision in Tau fluff the Tau just aren't going to join chaos.

If the Tau did try to research a cure they would soon learn that it is incurable. I also think that if one Tau like Farsight can think "Hmm, screw the greater good" than any other Tau could look past the secular nature of Tau society. If a Firewarrior spends a lot of time fighting Chaos forces and sees Daemons, Sorcerors and Magic they might start to doubt what they've been taught.

The whole Nurgle thing could happen like this: Firewarriors fighting against Chaos catch one of Nurgles plagues. They are in horrible pain and nothing the Tau Empire can do with help them. They have seen Plague Marines fighting with these horrible illnesses without much difficulty. In fact, it seems to help rather than hinder them. They are so maddened by pain that they decide to join up with whatever is stopping the marines from feeling as bad as them. You now have Nurgle Tau.

It might not be the best explanation but its one way you could have reasonably fluffy Chaos Tau.

How would they initiate the worship though, seeing as they have no history of worship or knowledge of the chaos gods and with no presence in the warp nurgle or one of his deamons couldn't communicate directly with them to make a 'deal'. the only way would be to actively seek out the plague marines who would most likely kill within torpedo range or use as slaves/toys