Switch Theme:

Whirlwinds a viable unit for vanilla marines?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.

Yuber wrote:This thread blows my mind on so many levels.

Here's some of the ridiculous points I've seen:

-4 x Small blasts are better than 1 Large Blast
-TFC being competitive.
-TFC being resilient.
-Str7 weapons killing AV12
-Tremor rounds being "underrated"
-TFC being dirt cheap.

There's a reason why only so few use TFC and Whirlwinds. Especially in tournament scenes. It's quite obvious why.


Care to make any points or are you just trolling? I made the statement in red, and I stand by it.


Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate. 
   
Made in ca
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Grey Templar:

Speak for yourself. I don't agree that either the Thunderfire Cannon or the Whirlwind are subpar. Maybe the people that can't use them effectively, but not the units themselves.
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

I do use TFCs in low point games and love them. they are very economical.

i do NOT use them in high point games because they take a HS slot that i can use better.


i have never used Whirlwinds so i can't really say anything about them other then stat comparisons.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in ph
Stealthy Space Wolves Scout





Monster Rain wrote:
Yuber wrote:This thread blows my mind on so many levels.

Here's some of the ridiculous points I've seen:

-4 x Small blasts are better than 1 Large Blast
-TFC being competitive.
-TFC being resilient.
-Str7 weapons killing AV12
-Tremor rounds being "underrated"
-TFC being dirt cheap.

There's a reason why only so few use TFC and Whirlwinds. Especially in tournament scenes. It's quite obvious why.


Care to make any points or are you just trolling? I made the statement in red, and I stand by it.



Fine. 16% chance to immobilize a tank, assuming he even decide to move it. Also, you're sacrifice 1 shooting turn shooting at vehicles instead of shooting infantry, which is their intended target, to achieve this.

Pretty sure this was dead obvious as why i didnt expound

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/27 04:25:45


There are 2 kinds of Dakka members: People who just think the game and people who actually play the game. Which one are you? 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.

Yuber wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
Yuber wrote:This thread blows my mind on so many levels.

Here's some of the ridiculous points I've seen:

-4 x Small blasts are better than 1 Large Blast
-TFC being competitive.
-TFC being resilient.
-Str7 weapons killing AV12
-Tremor rounds being "underrated"
-TFC being dirt cheap.

There's a reason why only so few use TFC and Whirlwinds. Especially in tournament scenes. It's quite obvious why.


Care to make any points or are you just trolling? I made the statement in red, and I stand by it.



Fine. 16% chance to immobilize a tank, assuming he even decide to move it. Also, you're sacrifice 1 shooting turn shooting at vehicles instead of shooting infantry, which is their intended target, to achieve this.

Pretty sure this was dead obvious as why i didnt expound


Obvious that you're missing a lot of other possible applications, maybe.

Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate. 
   
Made in ph
Stealthy Space Wolves Scout





Monster Rain wrote:
Yuber wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
Yuber wrote:This thread blows my mind on so many levels.

Here's some of the ridiculous points I've seen:

-4 x Small blasts are better than 1 Large Blast
-TFC being competitive.
-TFC being resilient.
-Str7 weapons killing AV12
-Tremor rounds being "underrated"
-TFC being dirt cheap.

There's a reason why only so few use TFC and Whirlwinds. Especially in tournament scenes. It's quite obvious why.


Care to make any points or are you just trolling? I made the statement in red, and I stand by it.



Fine. 16% chance to immobilize a tank, assuming he even decide to move it. Also, you're sacrifice 1 shooting turn shooting at vehicles instead of shooting infantry, which is their intended target, to achieve this.

Pretty sure this was dead obvious as why i didnt expound


Obvious that you're missing a lot of other possible applications, maybe.


Uhh what applications? Besides, lots of applications doesn't make a unit good. its the quality of application.

There are 2 kinds of Dakka members: People who just think the game and people who actually play the game. Which one are you? 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

TFCs make Rhino rush just cry.

if they move they might get immobilized, but if they stay put they can't do their job.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in ph
Stealthy Space Wolves Scout





Grey Templar wrote:TFCs make Rhino rush just cry.

if they move they might get immobilized, but if they stay put they can't do their job.


Hmm, ok let me get this straight. You are doing a rhino rush. And you wont move because theres a 16% chance it'll get immobilized?

If everyone has the same line of thinking, then maybe TFCs ARE GOOD.

There are 2 kinds of Dakka members: People who just think the game and people who actually play the game. Which one are you? 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

No, i will move and take the 16% chance, but if ANY are immobilized then the TFC has just earned it's points back by slowing down my attack.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in ph
Stealthy Space Wolves Scout





Grey Templar wrote:No, i will move and take the 16% chance, but if ANY are immobilized then the TFC has just earned it's points back by slowing down my attack.


Yes, so basically its a gamble. The question is if the points and HS slot is worth that gamble.

There are 2 kinds of Dakka members: People who just think the game and people who actually play the game. Which one are you? 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





Yuber wrote:4 x Small blasts are better than 1 Large Blast


Trivially obvious.

Yuber wrote:-TFC being competitive.


Debatable.

Yuber wrote:-TFC being resilient.


Debatable-- while not resilient in the conventional sense, TFCs can very easily acquire good cover saves and sit out of range of enemies.

Yuber wrote:-Str7 weapons killing AV12


I don't know what game you're playing if you think this is rare.

Yuber wrote:-Tremor rounds being "underrated"


I don't know to what extent they're considered good, so I can't speak to whether they're underrated, but they're certainly strong.

Yuber wrote:-TFC being dirt cheap.


Yeah, that's kinda silly. TFC seem costed quite rationally.

Yuber wrote:There's a reason why only so few use TFC and Whirlwinds. Especially in tournament scenes. It's quite obvious why.


Because people netlist?


Grey Templar wrote:we are doing a comparative analysis between the TFC and the Whirlwind.

we all agree both are sub-par at best.


I disagree, I find the TFC quite effective and the Whirlwind effective within its niche.
   
Made in us
Frothing Warhound of Chaos



South Florida

Gavin Thorne wrote:Just what the title says. I see a lot of lists with vindi's which are definitely awesomesauce, but the whirlwind is capable of ignoring cover, has great range, and fires indirectly (right?) so why don't I see more of them? Are they no longer a viable unit or are preds and vindi's so much better that taking even one isn't an option anymore?


theyre underpowered. viable depends on what level you're playing at. I certainly wouldnt take one to a tournament.
   
Made in ph
Stealthy Space Wolves Scout





Fetterkey wrote:
Yuber wrote:4 x Small blasts are better than 1 Large Blast


Trivially obvious.

Yuber wrote:-TFC being competitive.


Debatable.

Yuber wrote:-TFC being resilient.


Debatable-- while not resilient in the conventional sense, TFCs can very easily acquire good cover saves and sit out of range of enemies.

Yuber wrote:-Str7 weapons killing AV12


I don't know what game you're playing if you think this is rare.

Yuber wrote:-Tremor rounds being "underrated"


I don't know to what extent they're considered good, so I can't speak to whether they're underrated, but they're certainly strong.

Yuber wrote:-TFC being dirt cheap.


Yeah, that's kinda silly. TFC seem costed quite rationally.

Yuber wrote:There's a reason why only so few use TFC and Whirlwinds. Especially in tournament scenes. It's quite obvious why.


Because people netlist?


Grey Templar wrote:we are doing a comparative analysis between the TFC and the Whirlwind.

we all agree both are sub-par at best.


I disagree, I find the TFC quite effective and the Whirlwind effective within its niche.


-Its not even remotely debatable. TFC sucks, period.
-Str 7 vs AV12 has a very low chance of killing it, thus making it rare. Ofcourse the argument of how low the chance is, subjective.
-Costed rationally in the context of points cost. TFC taking HS Slot hurts. Alot.
-People netlist because netlists work. Besides, it doesnt take a math genius to figure out that the TFC is an inferior choice.

I respect that you use TFC, I am not saying you should stop using them. I am merely trying to keep people from buying a unit that just sucks for its cost (points wise and money wise lol)

There are 2 kinds of Dakka members: People who just think the game and people who actually play the game. Which one are you? 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Grey Templar wrote:TFCs make Rhino rush just cry.
Rhino rush nothin'! Ever fired tremor rounds at a squadron of LRBT's? Decent chance of a kill or two, which is a hilarious use of a 100-point unit.







There's just an acre of you fellas, isn't there? 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





I kill/neutralize AV 12 vehicles with my autocannons all the time.

I don't see how TFCs taking an HS slot hurts that much. Sure, it means I can't have another Dread, but I definitely prefer a TFC to a dakkapred.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yuber wrote:-Str 7 vs AV12 has a very low chance of killing it, thus making it rare. Ofcourse the argument of how low the chance is, subjective.
No it isn't. The chance is 1/36, multiplied by the chance of hitting.

More importantly, what bearing does this comparison have exactly? Neither the TFC nor the Whirlwind has a facing with AV 12 nor the capability to strike at S7.







There's just an acre of you fellas, isn't there? 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.

Yuber wrote:-Str 7 vs AV12 has a very low chance of killing it, thus making it rare. Ofcourse the argument of how low the chance is, subjective.


Since you're being so antagonistic, I really don't feel bad saying that if this is your idea of good advice you really haven't got a clue what you're talking about.

Tremor Rounds are good against vehicles squadrons, Jump Infantry, and Bikers of all sorts by the way.

The only thing that keeps me from bringing it to tournaments is that there's so many wacky deployment options that things that can't move and shoot tend to be dead weight in some missions and against the FOTM builds that's usually not good.

If you're just playing out of the BRB they're awesome. Particularly at or around 1000 points. The armies that are usually strongest because of the weight of numbers(Orks, Nids) tend to get disrespected by it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/27 05:58:58


Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate. 
   
Made in ph
Stealthy Space Wolves Scout





MekanobSamael wrote:
Yuber wrote:-Str 7 vs AV12 has a very low chance of killing it, thus making it rare. Ofcourse the argument of how low the chance is, subjective.
No it isn't. The chance is 1/36, multiplied by the chance of hitting.

More importantly, what bearing does this comparison have exactly? Neither the TFC nor the Whirlwind has a facing with AV 12 nor the capability to strike at S7.


Like i said the context is subjective. If you have 1 million str 7 shots, even AV13 will die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Monster Rain wrote:
Yuber wrote:-Str 7 vs AV12 has a very low chance of killing it, thus making it rare. Ofcourse the argument of how low the chance is, subjective.


Since you're being so antagonistic, I really don't feel bad saying that if this is your idea of good advice you really haven't got a clue what you're talking about.

Tremor Rounds are good against vehicles squadrons, Jump Infantry, and Bikers of all sorts by the way.

The only thing that keeps me from bringing it to tournaments is that there's so many wacky deployment options that things that can't move and shoot tend to be dead weight in some missions and against the FOTM builds that's usually not good.

If you're just playing out of the BRB they're awesome. Particularly at or around 1000 points. The armies that are usually strongest because of the weight of numbers(Orks, Nids) tend to get disrespected by it.


Dude, im not giving advice. I merely commenting on Str7 vs AV12. Im not saying you shouldnt take it. Im saying that Str 7 has a RELATIVELY low chance of popping AV12. For clarity's sake, lets say you have 2 Str 7 weapons. An auto cannon and a plasma cannon, obviously the autocannon would do better.

The reason why I say TFC sucks hard is because FOTM armies win tourneys. And TFC cant fight FOTM setups very well.

Hell, if the meta is horde heavy, TFC would own hard.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/27 06:05:24


There are 2 kinds of Dakka members: People who just think the game and people who actually play the game. Which one are you? 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





Flavor of the month armies win tournies against low-level players. That being said, it'll be interesting to see how the TFC fares against the upcoming flavor of the month...
   
Made in ph
Stealthy Space Wolves Scout





Fetterkey wrote:Flavor of the month armies win tournies against low-level players. That being said, it'll be interesting to see how the TFC fares against the upcoming flavor of the month...


Id like to see that too, but no one uses it in high level play. I wonder why?

There are 2 kinds of Dakka members: People who just think the game and people who actually play the game. Which one are you? 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





It seems like your argument implies that any unit that is not currently being used in competition is noncompetitive, which seems obviously wrong.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yuber wrote:
MekanobSamael wrote:
Yuber wrote:-Str 7 vs AV12 has a very low chance of killing it, thus making it rare. Ofcourse the argument of how low the chance is, subjective.
No it isn't. The chance is 1/36, multiplied by the chance of hitting.

More importantly, what bearing does this comparison have exactly? Neither the TFC nor the Whirlwind has a facing with AV 12 nor the capability to strike at S7.


Like i said the context is subjective. If you have 1 million str 7 shots, even AV13 will die.
No. In this case the chance of making a kill is zero until you immobilize the thing and knock all the guns off. (Note: I meant 1/18 when I said 1/36. Little error).

It's a statistical thing, though. Context is important, but it isn't subjective. If context were subjective, that would mean that when I have six autocannons, you could say "hmmm, looks more like three autocannons to me," and have a legitimate argument. Obviously, this is not the case. Therefore, context is not subjective. Did you mean important? It sounds like you meant important.

As it stands, there are three aspects of the "context." The first is the chance to hit, the second is number of shots, and the third is the presence or absence of a cover save. So, a good model of the chance to score a destroyed result against AV 12 with a S7 weapon is this:

(# of shots)(BS)/(108)(C)

This model uses # as the number of shots, and C = 1 for a model without cover or 2 for a model with cover. This model also assumes BS below 6.

More importantly, though, you still haven't explained how it applies to the question of whirlwinds and TFC's, though.







There's just an acre of you fellas, isn't there? 
   
Made in ph
Stealthy Space Wolves Scout





MekanobSamael wrote:
Yuber wrote:
MekanobSamael wrote:
Yuber wrote:-Str 7 vs AV12 has a very low chance of killing it, thus making it rare. Ofcourse the argument of how low the chance is, subjective.
No it isn't. The chance is 1/36, multiplied by the chance of hitting.

More importantly, what bearing does this comparison have exactly? Neither the TFC nor the Whirlwind has a facing with AV 12 nor the capability to strike at S7.


Like i said the context is subjective. If you have 1 million str 7 shots, even AV13 will die.
No. In this case the chance of making a kill is zero until you immobilize the thing and knock all the guns off. (Note: I meant 1/18 when I said 1/36. Little error).

It's a statistical thing, though. Context is important, but it isn't subjective. If context were subjective, that would mean that when I have six autocannons, you could say "hmmm, looks more like three autocannons to me," and have a legitimate argument. Obviously, this is not the case. Therefore, context is not subjective. Did you mean important? It sounds like you meant important.

As it stands, there are three aspects of the "context." The first is the chance to hit, the second is number of shots, and the third is the presence or absence of a cover save. So, a good model of the chance to score a destroyed result against AV 12 with a S7 weapon is this:

(# of shots)(BS)/(108)(C)

This model uses # as the number of shots, and C = 1 for a model without cover or 2 for a model with cover. This model also assumes BS below 6.

More importantly, though, you still haven't explained how it applies to the question of whirlwinds and TFC's, though.


It seems i misused the word "subjective", but what you said is what I meant. Which I want to thank you for expounding.

Regarding the Str 7 vs AV12, it wasn't about TFC or Whirlwind, I was talking about arguments I saw when I was reading the previous entries of the thread.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/28 05:27:07


There are 2 kinds of Dakka members: People who just think the game and people who actually play the game. Which one are you? 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: