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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: the diversity of Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars and Dark Angels

Hahaha, 'diversity', hahaha, 'Space Marines', hahaha, oh man that's good. Mind if I steal that line some day when everyone's getting too serious?

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:the diversity of Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars and Dark Angels

Sparkly Space Vampire Assault Marines. Furry Assault Marines. Catholic Assault Marines. The guys in dresses.

I didn't know that "diversity" meant "one of these is not like the others".

TylerCade wrote:space marines are the army you go to when you cant muster the imagination to personify another one.

So you require more imagination to play another army besides Space Marines? How did you figure that out? Playing Orks, Necrons etc. requires more imagination?

"I'm sorry John, I've tried so hard to imagine aliens with green skin screaming waagh all the time and I just can't manage it. I think I'm going to have to go back to playing eight foot tall super humans in inch thick body armour."

WarWizard91 wrote:Yes there are a lot of marines, get over it, because of all of the revenue they generate they help GW make money, and who knows what the company would be like without their cash cow.

Competent?

PraetorDave wrote:Space marines are so popular for several reasons:

A. They are humans. Its logical that people can associate with them well (IG and DH/WH players don't get started with me)
B. They are super soldiers. I.E. Super heroes. So more or less they are Superman/Batman/take your pick. What kid doesn't want to control an army of their choice of superhero?
C. They are "the good guys". For crying out loud they are the freaking saviors of ALL mankind. Not just one planet. Not just some cat that was stuck in a tree. ALL OF MANKIND!!! Who wouldn't want to play as the savior of mankind?
D. They are the face of 40K. Basically everything 40K you see is either of a Space Marine shoving his size 47 boot up the A$$ of (insert alien race here), or its Space Marines defending helpless citizens on some god forsaken rock from (insert alien race here). And the second scenario usually leads to the A$$ beating eventually.

What other race can you say fits all of these qualities?

That pretty well sums it up. The main rule book is even written form the "imperium is the good guys" prospective. So naturally it steers people into the good vs bad scenario...and the us (humans) vs everyone else. Funny part is that only a couple races are truly "bad" guys...chaos, DE and necrons. Eldar are pretty much neutral, one could say the same about the Tyranids, they are pretty much just animals doing what animals do. Tau could even be considered good guys from a prospective. In reality the Imperium is only about as "good" as most empires during the dark ages and medieval times.

Melissia wrote:

WarWizard91 wrote:Yes there are a lot of marines, get over it, because of all of the revenue they generate they help GW make money, and who knows what the company would be like without their cash cow.

Competent?

lol'd

Diversity? Who cares. Win at all costs? Who cares. Feeling unique like non marine player, while, like a complete smartass, commenting marine players? Winner! Congratulations!

It is a hobby, game - killer of time. And why are you wasting your time with a hobby? Because it gives you something that you want? Yes? Hell yeah!

You wanna win? You get wins? Mission acomplished!

You sympathize with your guys and like your fluff? You get it? Mission acomplished!

You like looks of your army? You do it? Mission acomplished!

You do something, somehow, so you could whine about it all the time? Whine it? Mission acomplished!

And soooooo on...

Wanna get it in da hornymath style? Imagine space marines like an aggregate which represents certain amount of approaches - from which anyone can choose anything to stick with, what will make him happy. Every other army represents its own set of this bull*hit. So what does this actually mean? That our mathematical composition found a winner! Space marine represents da biggest set of bull*hit to choose from! So dudes and dudies - so surprised we found our winner?

I would also like to point out that spess dudes represents not only superhero scheme - but also gives fanatical, knightly, determined, angelic or mythic flavour to the mankind(and many, many more). They face enemies without fear. They will rather die, than surrender. Mankind is united in its possibly final form of social establishment- and they protect it. They are determined in their task. They pretty much represent every aspect where we suck - this bull*hit itself can actually impress someone. They are not just bunch of uber benchpress dudes. Where our determination and will fails in real life, they succeed.

My three cents summarized: They offer many, many, MANY ways to sympathize with them -and for some of them you can actually use your imagination.

It is the way of the alien and the heretic to babble about fall of the empire. Whilst it makes its vigil, possibly last, stand in the grim future of the universe...

Nice to find 40k fluff on the internet forums...Good times .

WarWizard91 wrote:Yes there are a lot of marines, get over it, because of all of the revenue they generate they help GW make money, and who knows what the company would be like without their cash cow.

The reason I got into marines first was because 1) they are easy to learn the game with 2) heroic imagery 3) easy paint scheme for beginning painters 4) cheap.

I have now moved on to other armies and different games, but they are still fun to play with every once and a while. So what if people like heroes can you really blame them? Would I play this game if Dark Eldar were the poster boy? Heck no. Sure the game doesn't even need a main army, just look at Fantasy. It's just it helps when your're are a scared frail little man, who just opened his first starter set, to have the strong presence of a Space Marine in the grim darkness of the far future.

Yes I am the proud owner of 5000pts of Ultra Marines.

+1. I agree with you 100%. A space marine on the cover of something just makes it look more awe inspiring. And I too have aprox 5000 of Ultramarines.

Wiglaf wrote:Honestly I wouldn´t have any problem with their hegemony if they weren´t so dull to play and to look at. Their core model range, while decent is probably the blandest of the whole 40k. And their tanks are undoubtely the ugliest.

That GW keep doing more and more characters for them whom looks basically the same in their Buzz Lightyear armor while other armies with way more interesting and wider aesthetical possibilities remain completely ostracized , irks me a bit too.

The conformity of style and rigid militaristic aesthetic of marines is what defines them.

I rather think all the fancy "blinged" out marines have been made to appease people like yourself unfortunately...

A nicely painted classic marine army is a gorgeous thing and has it's place in the setting. In fact the conformity of the marines (at least pre-bling era) was what allowed the other wilder looking armies to have such impact.

Melissia wrote:

WarWizard91 wrote:Yes there are a lot of marines, get over it, because of all of the revenue they generate they help GW make money, and who knows what the company would be like without their cash cow.

Competent?

While I agree with Ordo Dakka that your comment is funny, I think that the company would be a lot smaller with less of those "cool" races/armies we all love. We all hear about how massive a sells percentage that Marines rake in, do you think that money goes only to more marines? Most likely not. The money that marines make probably helps it so that no armies have to be squated.

Sure the opposite could be true as well. That with out all the marines there could be other different cool stuff to take their place, and this would be even cooler more diverse stuff. But this other way might not be as successful as the "all marines all the time way" that we have now, and I don't see it as a risk GW was willing to take.

Given how successful monetarily their Marines program has been I would say it was a very competent move on their part. I don't think it is good for the game as a whole though, diversity adds to the joy of the game after all.

Yes, I hear about the SUPPOSED and RUMORED massive sales of Marines.

Never seen any proof.

While I don't deny they sell the most, I take the "50% of all GW profits" malarkey with a truckload of salt.

CT GAMER wrote:A nicely painted classic marine army is a gorgeous thing and has it's place in the setting. In fact the conformity of the marines (at least pre-bling era) was what allowed the other wilder looking armies to have such impact.

This is true. Space Marines are the focus of the game, and a nicely painted Space marine army is absolutely wondrous. Even moreso if the person had some creativity and did something different, especially now with all the different marks of armour being sold by Forgeworld. The downside to this is, because they are the newcomer army that is easy to play and easier to paint than other armies, is that it is rare to see a well painted Space Marine army.

I was lucky that my opponent for many years was a fantastic painter. He had 2 Space marine armies, Imperial Fists and Black Templars, and a Chaos legion, Night Lords. All 3 looked stunning. Subtle highlighting on the Black Templars, deep, orangey yellow (that had an awesome, cracked, baked on effect) on his Imperial Fists, well done lightning and conversions on the Night Lords. Even though I hated playing my Salamanders against, yet again, Space Marines, seeing those armies staring across the table at my mediocre Salamanders was awesome. Pity he stopped playing.

Now when I walk into GW and see a bunch of 14 year olds sitting at the painting table, painting their first Space Marine, I cringe.

I'm with Loki and CT GAMER. A well painted marine army (be they Ultramarines or something else) with proper squad markings etc. is a beautiful thing. These types of armies seem to be getting more rare as time goes on, which is a shame, but they really are striking on the table top. This "space marine players are n00bs with no imagination!!!" thread seems to come up all the time and I still don't understand why. I cannot be the only person who sees at least one beautiful space marine army just about everywhere they go. Similarly, I have seen tons and tons of poorly painted Guard, Ork, Necron, and especially Eldar armies (to be fair, the well painted Eldar armies I have seen are truly spectacular). I will leave it at that as the main reasons for the glut of space marine armies have been laid out several times in this thread already and there is no need to repeat them.

@ Melissia
I also am not convinced by the "Space Marines are 50% of GW's sales" argument but I would be willing to bet that they are at least 20% of overall 40K sales. That is still a huge amount of GW's overall profit. I suppose it could be argued that the high sales come from the massive exposure that space marines have but then it turns into a chicken vs. egg argument which isn't going anywhere. I think it is factually accurate to say that space marines account for a much larger chunk of GW's overall sales when compared to any other model range.

I think the more pertinent question is why so many people don't play Space Marines.

Monster Rain wrote:I think the more pertinent question is why so many people don't play Space Marines.

1. Because they're fat.
2. Because they have "space" in their name.
3. Because their shoulders hurt.
4. Because they look like lego bricks and could confuse a small child into swallowing them.
5. Because they're ugly.
6. Because they have really big hands.
7. Because they're loud.
8. Because they never have fun.
9. Because they're a public menace; you wouldn't believe how many times a poor Imperial citizen's house was leveled by a deep strike.
10. Because they're Space Marines.

Necroman wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I think the more pertinent question is why so many people don't play Space Marines.

1. Because they're fat.
2. Because they have "space" in their name.
3. Because their shoulders hurt.
4. Because they look like lego bricks and could confuse a small child into swallowing them.
5. Because they're ugly.
6. Because they have really big hands.
7. Because they're loud.
8. Because they never have fun.
9. Because they're a public menace; you wouldn't believe how many times a poor Imperial citizen's house was leveled by a deep strike.
10. Because they're Space Marines.

All interesting answers.

I actually attribute it to Middle-Child Syndrom.

TylerCade wrote:

It seems to me, sorry if i step on any ones toes here, that space marines are the army you go to when you cant muster the imagination to personify another one.

because it takes so much more imagination to put together and paint non-marine armies....... I mean really are you serious?

brettz123 wrote:

TylerCade wrote:

It seems to me, sorry if i step on any ones toes here, that space marines are the army you go to when you cant muster the imagination to personify another one.

because it takes so much more imagination to put together and paint non-marine armies....... I mean really are you serious?

I attribute the lameness of Space Marines to the absolute failure of the Dawn of War video game series.

Monster Rain wrote:I attribute the lameness of Space Marines to the absolute failure of the Dawn of War video game series.

I attribute it to marketing.

"Like, there's this cool army that's formed out these guys who are totally awesome! Like, they have these huge muscles and they're superstrong and superfast and they're really better than everybody else! They're so much better that they can kill a tank by punching it! And they have chainsaw swords! And, like, they're really nice and are good guys, but they're REALLY VIOLENT on the battlefield AND OH MY GOD HE PUNCHED OUT AN ORK'S ESOPHAGUS THATS SO COOL! You so NEED at least fifty dozen squads of these, and then a really pimped out commander with all this bling who's, like, even stronger than the other guys! And he's screaming all the time like he's constipated, only he's not, and that's cool! And they even come in different colors, like blue, and blue, and blue, and red, and blue, and... They even have bikes!

BUY THEM NOW! *May require additional paint/assembling*"

Funny, the Dawn of War games-- specifically, Dawn of War 2's original campaign and expansion campaign-- are just about the only reasons I actually might like Marines. Thaddeus is great.

Indeed. Dawn of War 2's campaign showed a small band of Space Marines achieving the impossible, but also not screaming 'Space Marines, feth yeah!'. The intro did, but Relic didn't have anything to do with the intro. Like DoW 1's intro, they outsourced it.

The Space marines in the campaign just went on and did their job, and talked about things. It actually made them seem human. I attribute the awful Space Marine attitude to the recent codex's. They're far more over the top than Relic ever made them.

-Loki wrote:Now when I walk into GW and see a bunch of 14 year olds sitting at the painting table, painting their first Space Marine, I cringe.

Why? Presumably your friend with the awesome armies was once one of those 14 year olds.

I've winced in the past at some of the horrendous things youngsters do with paint (a speed painting contest at one of the UK GamesDays still haunts me) but I'd honestly rather take the time to play them than some 24 year old with 1500 points of grey plastic.

Besides, then I might actually win...

BloodQuest wrote:

-Loki wrote:Now when I walk into GW and see a bunch of 14 year olds sitting at the painting table, painting their first Space Marine, I cringe.

Why? Presumably your friend with the awesome armies was once one of those 14 year olds.

I've winced in the past at some of the horrendous things youngsters do with paint (a speed painting contest at one of the UK GamesDays still haunts me) but I'd honestly rather take the time to play them than some 24 year old with 1500 points of grey plastic.

Besides, then I might actually win...

The problem is, it's all I'm seeing now when it comes to Space marines, unless I go looking on the net for people showcasing their stuff. Also, to be slightly fairer, he was always a good painter.

I know what you mean but you really never know.

I met a guy in one of the local GW stores who was EVEN OLDER than me - must've been in his 50's.

He'd got into the hobby as therapy after suffering a stroke. His models were astonishing, really fantastic. Then he showed me some he'd done just 6 months earlier. Looked like they'd been painted by an utter -----.

My point is that everyone's a beginner at some point, whether it's 14 or 40.

Best we can do is give them some encouragement, try and knock off any rough edges and see how it turns out.

I still play BA, but I think it's true that the better players will tend toward something more esoteric.

Good, bad or ugly seeing a painted SPESH MUHREEN army is a rare site to begin with.

Nobody wants to paint them because A) it means working on the hobby instead of just downloading a web list, using some super glue and playing to win B) it makes things more difficult when the time comes to jump to the newest flavor of the month codex.

I grant that there are people who actually do play the armies seriously but I have no fear painting the entire crowd with the same brush because of weight of numbers. The vast, vast majority of people get into space marines because it appeals to them as the noob army, cheap to buy, easy-mode to play, constantly updated to be the strongest codex (whichever one they use this month) with little to no personal investment in the hobby.

I firmly believe that Imperial Guard have way more capability due their fluff and personality to be the proper focus of a world dominated by a human empire. And you can sympathize with them easily because like every other army they have their flaws and weakness, and are able to have actual human feelings. Marines should be relegated to a secondary role as fluff wise they aren´t representative of what means to be a real imperial citizen and soldier. That would be a huge step up in the evolving process of present 40k world in a more mature way.

Marines already have a solid fan base of serious players and huge masses of young groupies whom still wet their beds so I don´t see why more exacerbated and uninterrupted commercial support is needed here.

I was dragged to Space Marines as a kid... and I resented myself as I got older for having done so, but after I changed them to DAs and stripped my crappy old paintjobs I actually got a lot of pride in my work.

Space Marines have the coolest fluff, aesthetics and general imagery in my mind... They're frankly awesome and although I might not choose them today and go for an underdog instead, I fail to see why I should throw my army away for diversity I have every right to collect an SM army as the next man!

I would have to say the reason i was drawn to amrines first was i liked the concept, as I grew to leanr more about them i began to see what thhey lacked but how they made up for it through tactics and versatility. Though i see alot of people play the specalty marines far more than plain jane vanilla. But i see alot of people that play them for the power lists and not because they like the army for what it is.

but as far as casual goes, if you know whata rmy your going to be facing, even without knowledge of what units will be showing up you an gear up a amrinnes army to beat it with proper tactics and planning. marines are desinged to do jsut that, be so versitlie with a good geneeral you almsot can't beat them. Which makes peole whine and complain that their out of left field army didn beat a solid block of marines.

I've played jsut about every army except nids, orks and dark eldar. and i have to say that through all of them i have always kept my marines. they alwasy fit and playing thhem was like riding a bike. i never forgot how. In closing jsut play and have fun. if yoour not having fun its probaly time to find a new hobby.

SumYungGui wrote:Good, bad or ugly seeing a painted SPESH MUHREEN army is a rare site to begin with. .

Now this is no joke...... maybe space marines always wage war in a very light grey environment and all those unpainted armies are just very cleverly camoed up

You're absolutely right...at the last tournie I went to, there was over 50% marines...but I like that. I picked Daemons, and I don't really want to see the majority of people play what I play. You need to build a special army to deal with Daemons or Orks or Necs or Eldar, and if most armies are built with battling marines in mind, it makes it that much easier for the non-marines to win. And every tournie I've seen usually has non-marines eating marines. So let the focus on marines continue!