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Not if the mini-rocket actually fires outside of the barrel

The explanation of how bolters operate always make it seem like a two-stage rocket with a small blast of propellant propelling the bolt out of the barrel, then once it's clear and on its way the main stage fires and then propels the bolt for the rest of the way.

Seaward wrote:I suppose it makes sense, in a way, but it seems like it'd be inefficient to me. When you're actually shooting something, especially multiple moving targets, you need to constantly adjust your aim, and aiming, locking the armor, firing, unlocking the armor to correct aim, locking the armor, etc. just seems like it'd be a pain.

As was already stated, a bolter has pretty(for a 8 foot tall superhuman wearing slabs of tank plating for armor at least) low recoil. I'd assume they'd only "lock" the armor when rapid firing at short range into crowds.

Seaward wrote:Yeah, well, let's not even get into how dumb that is. Don't get me wrong, you could probably manage four or five shots before the barrel was completely fouled by all the exhaust from a mini-rocket launching inside of it, but...

So a 38,000 year old guy walking around, guys shooting lightning from their hands, ships with power generators more efficient than matter-to-energy conversion, batteries that can recharge from being tossed in a fire, words that drive you insane to look at or hear, flattening a continent for a meeting, and all of the other big things in 40k are fine, but clean rocket propellants or a self-clearing barrel completely strain your suspension of disbelief?

Seaward wrote:

4M2A wrote:Many other sources claim that bolters fire self propelled bolts like small missiles.

Yeah, well, let's not even get into how dumb that is. Don't get me wrong, you could probably manage four or five shots before the barrel was completely fouled by all the exhaust from a mini-rocket launching inside of it, but...

Not at all. The rocket doesn't fire until the round has left the gun. It's a small explosive charge which launches it. And could it work?

It does:

The Gyrojet: a real-life boltgun from the 1960s....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrojet



"The rocket leaves the barrel with low energy, and accelerates until the fuel is exhausted at about 60 feet (20 m), at which point the rocket has a velocity of about 1250 feet per second (FPS), slightly greater than Mach one, with about 50% more energy than the common .45 ACP round.[11] While test figures vary greatly, testers report that there was a sonic crack from some rounds, but only a hissing sound from others, suggesting that the maximum velocity varied from slightly below to slightly above Mach 1"

Melissia wrote:Astartes power armor negates the need for stocks for the most part. As far as recoil goes, it nullifies it. As far as aim goes, they usually have a vid link to their weapon's point of view. Hell, even regular Stormtroopers are often equipped with something similar (see Dark Heresy: Ascension), albeit not as advanced.

This. That and what's to say they don't have a telescopic stock in there in case they want it, and you just never see it because it's usually collapsed?

As for why the MODELS are always shown firing from the hip, it's because the way that GW has decided for everything to look, it would be flat out impossible to make the model aiming down the sight of a bolter.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

Seaward wrote:Yeah, well, let's not even get into how dumb that is. Don't get me wrong, you could probably manage four or five shots before the barrel was completely fouled by all the exhaust from a mini-rocket launching inside of it, but...

So a 38,000 year old guy walking around, guys shooting lightning from their hands, ships with power generators more efficient than matter-to-energy conversion, batteries that can recharge from being tossed in a fire, words that drive you insane to look at or hear, flattening a continent for a meeting, and all of the other big things in 40k are fine, but clean rocket propellants or a self-clearing barrel completely strain your suspension of disbelief?

exactly.

actually some do have stocks , the old ones did mainley on human models but they came on a plastic sprue and you could could it off for sm

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

Seaward wrote:Yeah, well, let's not even get into how dumb that is. Don't get me wrong, you could probably manage four or five shots before the barrel was completely fouled by all the exhaust from a mini-rocket launching inside of it, but...

So a 38,000 year old guy walking around, guys shooting lightning from their hands, ships with power generators more efficient than matter-to-energy conversion, batteries that can recharge from being tossed in a fire, words that drive you insane to look at or hear, flattening a continent for a meeting, and all of the other big things in 40k are fine, but clean rocket propellants or a self-clearing barrel completely strain your suspension of disbelief?

Exactly, people need to remember in fluff discussions that science and the universe as a whole acts differently to the 40k universe.

Seaward wrote:

Excellent. So it basically is like Shadowrun's smartlink system, then. Good to know.

Or the HUDs Stormtroopers, Mandalorians and various other troopers have in Star Wars, or The ODST, Spartan and normal Marine's HUD in Halo, or the Flip Down HUDs in Aliens.

Seaward wrote:Still not sure I buy the armor locking to prevent recoil thing, but meh.

They don't need to lock their armor to deal with the amount of recoil because its Powered Battle Armour, its a strength enhancing Combat Suit, worn by super humans that already have a large amount of physical strength, recoil control isn't that hard.

For example I have the stock removed from my Mossberg 500 Tactical Shotgun and due to a life long experience with shotguns the recoil is manageable. Now replace me with a Space Marine and the Shotgun with a Bolter and you've got the same situation a person with a life long association with a Weapon's system that they know inside and out.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

Seaward wrote:Yeah, well, let's not even get into how dumb that is. Don't get me wrong, you could probably manage four or five shots before the barrel was completely fouled by all the exhaust from a mini-rocket launching inside of it, but...

So a 38,000 year old guy walking around, guys shooting lightning from their hands, ships with power generators more efficient than matter-to-energy conversion, batteries that can recharge from being tossed in a fire, words that drive you insane to look at or hear, flattening a continent for a meeting, and all of the other big things in 40k are fine, but clean rocket propellants or a self-clearing barrel completely strain your suspension of disbelief?

Yep.

Seaward wrote:

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

Seaward wrote:Yeah, well, let's not even get into how dumb that is. Don't get me wrong, you could probably manage four or five shots before the barrel was completely fouled by all the exhaust from a mini-rocket launching inside of it, but...

So a 38,000 year old guy walking around, guys shooting lightning from their hands, ships with power generators more efficient than matter-to-energy conversion, batteries that can recharge from being tossed in a fire, words that drive you insane to look at or hear, flattening a continent for a meeting, and all of the other big things in 40k are fine, but clean rocket propellants or a self-clearing barrel completely strain your suspension of disbelief?

Yep.

There is NOW a shotgun with no noticeable recoil, that fires 20+ rounds in less then 5 second, and 4 of the ammo types are basically mini rocket capable of hitting a target 200+ yards away. If we can do that now, you really think 38,000 years later they haven't figured out how to make that technology, even just a little better.

Miraclefish wrote:The Gyrojet: a real-life boltgun from the 1960s....

No. Go look at the hundreds of threads in the background on this subject. Suffice ti to say, you are wrong.

Melissia wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:The Gyrojet: a real-life boltgun from the 1960s....

No. Go look at the hundreds of threads in the background on this subject. Suffice ti to say, you are wrong.

I dont see why? Its a 50 cal. rocket in a rifle round. So is a bolter. In concept, they are the same thing.

I PMed you my response as it's off-topic, suffice it to say the misconception of Bolter Shells being Gyrojet rounds has been answered a hundred times over already.

I'm not saying one = the other.

I'm saying that if one which uses 100% rocket drive can operate cleanly in 1960, then I don't have to suspend my disbelief that one which uses a charge to exit the barrel can operate cleanly in 40,999...

It didn't operate cleanly, and due to that and other problems it never became more than a curiosity.

To deviate from the subject for a moment, the problem with 40K fluff is that you have to imagine all sorts of things which are stupid and impossible now, due to our lack of knowledge of advanced science, which will be cured in the future. BUT the new knowledge won't be of any help to improve existing technology.

For example, a rocket gun barrel which is made of a material which doesn't retain any propellant traces, so it never clogs up, thus rockets become a viable weapon. BUT, such a barrel can't be used for bullet guns, although they are already more efficient than rockets, and would become even more efficient still with the benefit of this new material.

Of course there isn't any serious thought into the science of 40K, it all operates on the principle of the Rule of Cool. Understanding that is the secret to sensible participation in 40K fluff tech discussions.

Yes, but you see... Science is cool!

What, I'm a Chemistry major, you'd expect me to say otherwise?

Personally I think the Bolter is a viable weapon, in the sense that it could actually work . Not necessarily in the sense that it is an actual practical weapon-- certainly it's highly impractical when its targets are common humans.

Well I can easily answer the "barrel being fouled by propellant" debate. When the rokkit bolts are fired out, they "drag" a swab of some kind that cleans the barrel as the bolt exits the barrel. Problem solved. Now tell me we couldnt do that in the future.

Bolters are supposed to be maintenance hogs.

Incidentally I like to think that the whole caseless, recoilless, and so on follows the nomenclature for stainless steel. Stainless steel will still stain and rust, but it won't do so as easily thanks to the large amount of nickel in it. Similarly bolters aren't caseless, but the kicker charge that results in the bolt leaving the barrel at a reasonably lethal velocity means that there's a cinematic discharge of spent shell casings that are more like the casings of low-velocity weapon like a large shotgun than a 0.75 calibre rifle round. Likewise it's not that they have no recoil, but they'd have less recoil than an equivalent 0.75 calibre rifle round thanks to the kicker charge being relatively weak.

KingCracker wrote:Well I can easily answer the "barrel being fouled by propellant" debate. When the rokkit bolts are fired out, they "drag" a swab of some kind that cleans the barrel as the bolt exits the barrel. Problem solved. Now tell me we couldnt do that in the future.

So tell me why bullets couldn't do that in the future?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nurglitch wrote:Bolters are supposed to be maintenance hogs.

Incidentally I like to think that the whole caseless, recoilless, and so on follows the nomenclature for stainless steel. Stainless steel will still stain and rust, but it won't do so as easily thanks to the large amount of nickel in it. Similarly bolters aren't caseless, but the kicker charge that results in the bolt leaving the barrel at a reasonably lethal velocity means that there's a cinematic discharge of spent shell casings that are more like the casings of low-velocity weapon like a large shotgun than a 0.75 calibre rifle round. Likewise it's not that they have no recoil, but they'd have less recoil than an equivalent 0.75 calibre rifle round thanks to the kicker charge being relatively weak.

That is exactly right.

The charge needed to get a heavy, rocket containing 0.75 round out of the breech, is probably as much as the recoil needed to get a normal bullet with much greater kinetic energy out of the breech.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:Yes, but you see... Science is cool!

What, I'm a Chemistry major, you'd expect me to say otherwise?

Personally I think the Bolter is a viable weapon, in the sense that it could actually work . Not necessarily in the sense that it is an actual practical weapon-- certainly it's highly impractical when its targets are common humans.

It is a viable weapon. There have been a number of weapons like this in the 20th century, such as rocket assisted artillery projectiles.

It is, as you say, an impractical weapon, partly because it is excessive against a human target, and also because the technology needed to make it work, can make simpler weapons such as normal bullet or rocket guns, work much better.

A bolter may be inefficient for killing people, but it seems like a terribly effective terror weapon, particularly the mass-reactive rounds (though one imagines the Hellfire shells to be far worse). Where its inefficiency is made up for by Astartes-level marksmanship, and its utility as a zero-g weapon, the Bolter comes into its own.

That said, real men use Plasma with the safeties off.

Ah the pistols I received second hand but the full size bolters I got while they were still on the sprue