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He has a point though why do they need the iron sight if the optics are in their helmet.

Anyway what will really grind your gears Seaward is one of them 'aiming down the sights' models I mentioned earlier actually has a stock on his bolt pistol. lols.



I guess if J.R tolkein can write plot holes GW are bound to.

To be fair, that's actually a boltgun, not a bolt pistol.

Ok. And?

Out of interest why is it not a bolt pistol? It obviously isn't meant to be held with two hands.

"Boltgun" is another name for "Bolter" in 40k. Sergeant Telion, for example, wields a Stalker pattern Boltgun.

As for why it's not a bolt pistol?

That's how the 2nd edition and earlier Boltguns looked. They were kinda wimpy, compared to the beefier Bolters of today.

I know what a boltgun is and in 2nd ed that was a bolt pistol not a bolter/boltgun. In the rules you couldnt even have a marine with a bolter/power fist combo.

= 2nd ed bolt pistol

Then I don't know what the hell is going on there, because I've never seen a bolt pistol with a stock, even in 2nd edition.

Ooh and check this... 3rd ed marine with a stock on his bolter.

This is my model, look at his wrist.

Now, that I have seen before. Stocks on the bolter at least.

A few of the metal Sergeant figures had it, but that was also before they really went into "detail" as to what Astartes Power Armor can/can't do.

So they ceased putting stocks on bolters with their models due to the fluff detailing they didn't need it. Yet left the iron sights?

Lots of older bolters did have stocks (small wire-frame like a modern folding stock), and were a pain because you generally had to cut them off so they wouldn't get stuck on the gigantic shoulder pads. As far as fluff goes, a man with superhuman strength and reflexes wearing powered armor that makes him strong enough to rip apart a truck with his hands should be able to brace a modern machine gun just fine with arm strength, and a bolter should not have bad recoil since most of the speed of the projectile comes from the rocket propellant, not an explosion in the chamber of the gun.

Stocks would extend the length of the weapon, something to be avoid in a boarding action or any close confined environment.

Space Marines don't need to aim, their faith in the divine Emperor guides their rounds.

1) Bolters have very low recoil, being as they have a small charge to get the round out of the chamber before the propellant kicks in

2) They don't fire from the hip in the traditional sense. Astartes have targetting systems that link their weapons to their armour senses - they see a reticule showing the round's end point and flight path

3) Some have stocks as they can customise their weapons/different Forge Worlds have different patterns. Some even have traditional scopes on - see Scouts, Deathwatch and Sternguard....

4) The iron sights are there as a backup. If a Marine's helmet is destroyed or the targeting system is compromises, they can use their considerable skill and eyesight to fire using the sights on the gun.

5) They're small plastic soldiers


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Weejock wrote:Stocks would extend the length of the weapon, something to be avoid in a boarding action or any close confined environment.

Space Marines don't need to aim, their faith in the divine Emperor guides their rounds.

Sorry, not the case at all.

I have several models with the bolt pistols of that style and they have no stocks thats something someone did themselves, and I also have ones with the actual bolter of that style its my favorite modeling of the bolt weapon. The pistols do not have the stocks only the bolter does and why would iron sights be impractical? a lot of marines go un-hooded and when their not wearing their helmets the dont get the hud and other things versus when they are wearing their helmets so....

Seaward wrote: Also, much better to argue that they have a Shadowrun-style Smartlink sort of system rather than simply a gun cam, as a gun cam is a terrible, terrible idea if only for the huge hit to situation awareness and field of vision you would take every time you wanted to aim at something.

The problem is that you are thinking about this from a human perspective, space marines are superhuman and can deal with and the visual stimuli

BloodDrop101X wrote: why would iron sights be impractical? a lot of marines go un-hooded and when their not wearing their helmets the dont get the hud and other things versus when they are wearing their helmets so....

That's a fair point.

I originally stood up for the fluff on this one but I'm kind of thinking this area has holes all over the shop. Not really worth the argument.

I wasnt really trying to argue but yes to many pot holes in their fluff, thats what were here for to provide eachother with the correct answers even though it usually takes a bit of debate here first lol

That scentence wasn't directed at you personally. Nor did I mean 'argument' in a negative non-constructive sense.

Oh sorry....

Kanluwen wrote:
Then you're obviously reading fluff wrong.

The fact that Astartes have optics that link their helmet's sensor suites to their gun kind of defeats the need for a big honking scope, doesn't it?

Do we have that actually verified in fluff anywhere, or is it simply an assumption?

Guard optics, by the by, on lasguns?
They're bogstandard, equivalent to the "ACOG" scopes you see on battle rifles right now. 4x magnification, at best, unless you're in a Marksman unit or have scavenged something better.

I'd take an ACOG over iron sights any day, was my point. Though theoretically you wouldn't need one with a lasgun in the first place, or at least not its bullet drop compensator. I have no idea about the ballistic properties of (LOL) mini rockets, though.

Seeing as how Guard weapons have no need for iron sights, what with integrated 4x sights(see that "tube" running around the top of your Cadians' lasguns? That's the sight.) you don't need to take iron sights for them

With Astartes, you've got a helmet that calculates trajectories for grenades to be thrown, flight characteristics of bolt rounds, etc etc.

And yes, that's been verified in fluff for years. The Deathwatch RPG, however, is what most recently talks about the helmet sensor suites. There was also an interesting piece in there about how those little "cyborg" things you see covering one eye on an unhelmeted Astartes being a "compact" version of the helmet's sensor suite, still allowing for a weapon link.

BloodDrop101X wrote: why would iron sights be impractical? a lot of marines go un-hooded and when their not wearing their helmets the dont get the hud and other things versus when they are wearing their helmets so....

Well, I'd be obliged to make the case that covering every inch of your body EXCEPT for your head in layers of armor is ALSO impractical, but then we'd get stuck on some sort of impracticality merry-go-round.



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Kanluwen wrote:Seeing as how Guard weapons have no need for iron sights, what with integrated 4x sights(see that "tube" running around the top of your Cadians' lasguns? That's the sight.) you don't need to take iron sights for them

With Astartes, you've got a helmet that calculates trajectories for grenades to be thrown, flight characteristics of bolt rounds, etc etc.

And yes, that's been verified in fluff for years. The Deathwatch RPG, however, is what most recently talks about the helmet sensor suites. There was also an interesting piece in there about how those little "cyborg" things you see covering one eye on an unhelmeted Astartes being a "compact" version of the helmet's sensor suite, still allowing for a weapon link.

Excellent. So it basically is like Shadowrun's smartlink system, then. Good to know.

Still not sure I buy the armor locking to prevent recoil thing, but meh.

They used to come with shoulder stocks:

The armor locking bit is an assumption on my part, to be honest. I get an inkling that the hydraulic system that they use to actually ensure that the wearer gets a full range of motion can be brute-forced into "locking" ala the "Armor Lock" ability in Halo: Reach.

As for scopes on bolters, they most assuredly exist. See Sternguard models and some Sisters models.

Bolters are self propelling so they only require a small amount of starting force and the rest comes from the bolt. This means they have a very low recoil. Bolters are not meant to be firing like an automatic weapon. When a hit has the power to blow an enemy apart one accurate is much more effective than spraying.

The weight of the SM + power armour combined with their strength means any remaining recoil has little effect.

Sm have a direct link between their visual screen and their bolter. standard aimin is pointless because they can use the bolter's camera instead of their eyes.

4M2A wrote:Bolters are self propelling so they only require a small amount of starting force and the rest comes from the bolt. This means they have a very low recoil.

Current fluff from the Deathwatch RPG says otherwise. And I quote, in the section regarding humans using Astartes bolters: "Astartes weapons impose a -30 [note: very heavy] penalty to all tests made with them by presumptuous mortals due to scale, weight, and/or recoil"

*shrug* Basically, Astartes weapons are designed to be used by Astartes in power armor. The recoil, while insignificant to an Astartes, is extremely disrupting to a normal human's aim. Mind you, similar penalties are given to other, heavier pattern boltguns (for example, a civilian replica of a Sororitas bolter).

I think that's either an incosistency or maybe there are multiple kinds. Many other sources claim that bolters fire self propelled bolts like small missiles.

Kanluwen wrote:The armor locking bit is an assumption on my part, to be honest. I get an inkling that the hydraulic system that they use to actually ensure that the wearer gets a full range of motion can be brute-forced into "locking" ala the "Armor Lock" ability in Halo: Reach.

I suppose it makes sense, in a way, but it seems like it'd be inefficient to me. When you're actually shooting something, especially multiple moving targets, you need to constantly adjust your aim, and aiming, locking the armor, firing, unlocking the armor to correct aim, locking the armor, etc. just seems like it'd be a pain.

whatwhat wrote:He has a point though why do they need the iron sight if the optics are in their helmet.

Anyway what will really grind your gears Seaward is one of them 'aiming down the sights' models I mentioned earlier actually has a stock on his bolt pistol. lols.



I guess if J.R tolkein can write plot holes GW are bound to.

Ya, I got that guy. As you can see a bolter can have a stock if the Marine wants it.

4M2A wrote:Many other sources claim that bolters fire self propelled bolts like small missiles.

Yeah, well, let's not even get into how dumb that is. Don't get me wrong, you could probably manage four or five shots before the barrel was completely fouled by all the exhaust from a mini-rocket launching inside of it, but...