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/bow. Well said.

This thread has been highly amusing. Thanks all!!

Let's take this little jewel of a Tyranid list:

H.Q.

Swarmlord
2x Tyrant Guard with Lash Whips

Elites

Hive Guard 2x -100

Hive Guard 2x -100

Venomthropes 2x -110

Troops

Tervigon
Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, Catalyst -185

Tervigon
Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, Catalyst -185

Termagants 22x -110

Termagants 22x -110

Heavy Support

Trygon
Adrenal Glands -210

Trygon
Adrenal Glands -210

Total: 1750

No need to explain why...

I think jabbdo wants us to praise his list, not criticize it. Weird.

Actually he's just getting a kick out of goating us.

Would it satisfy you all if I were to say the list sucked, and I was an utter slow?

Happy now?

Nope...I made it out of elementary school a long time ago.

What more do you want then?? I have admitted the list sucks (if only to end this thread as I'm tired of having to come back here) and I've said that you would absolutely PWN it with your nid list, though im not even sure on that, IMO it would be close (though Ill probably be horribly flamed for even suggesting that I might be able to compete with my crappy list)

Happy now guys?? You have utterly destroyed my self confidence, and hurt my feelings deeply. I shall now go and smash all of my models.

Pics or it didn't happen.

Damn, you got me

Your list could do PLENTY of murder to that nid list with just a handful of changes... that's the point...

You could go from having close games to all out ass handings...that's the gist of what I have been trying to get at.

*le sigh* and that my friends is why cyber-bullying is the bane of our generation (insert political statement)

agreed. Unholy Martyr, you say it perfectly.

+1 Unholy Martyr


What sort of changes would you suggest?

Well look at what would cause you the greatest grief from the army that is proposed at hand. You have 3 Close Combat Monsters that will surely make your skin crawl and can shred you because you lack just a few Invulnerable saves. Next, you're going to have to deal with numbers that will swap you. With that said, you need to be able to move around those numbers and dominate the field. The hammer and anvil approach only works if you have a suitable anvil. As it stands you really can't afford an anvil for your hammer which is your thunderwolves.

Take out the Iron priests and you have 310 points to work with. You can flesh out your troops a little bit more to have them be able to sit back and have your opponent break on them. Additionally, you can toss in some more firepower in the form of a few ore Missile Launchers and the like. It really becomes a personal choice from here on in.

I'll go into more detail a little later; however, I need to get going to work.

My list using yours as a stepping stone:

H.Q.

Wolf Lord
Thunderwulf mount, WC, SS, Wolf tooth Necklace, Saga of the Bear -240

Troops

Grey Hunters 5x
Flamer, Las Plas Razorback -150

Grey Hunters 5x
Flamer, Las Plas Razorback -150

Grey Hunters 5x
Flamer, Las Plas Razorback -150

Fast Attack

4 Thunderwulf Cavalry
1 w/ PF, 1 naked, 1 w/ bolter, 1 storm shield -255

4 Thunderwulf Cavalry
1 w/ PF, 1 naked, 1 w/ bolter, 1 storm shield -255

3 Thunderwulf Cavalry
1 w/ PF, 1 naked, 1 Storm Shield -205

Heavy Support

Long Fangs 5x
4x Missile Launchers -115

Long Fangs 5x
4x Missile Launchers -115

Long Fangs 5x
4x Missile Launchers -115

Total: 1750

Fair enough, switching the IP's for SS on the TWC and lasplas on the GH. On the other hand, you only have 4 cavalry units, whereas I have 6. Granted, your cavalry units can go toe to toe with tougher units more reliably with their SS, however against stuff lacking PF's our cavalry units are about even in effectiveness, except I have 2 more. Your list would do better than mine against rock armies and the like thanks to those SS, but against mech armies (which is the current meta) I think mine would do a little better thanks to having more targets and more power spread out over 6 units, at the cost of survivability.

The list is a glass hammer, it hits hard, then depending on who you're facing they either hit back and you crumble, or they dont get up again. Against most mech armies, its the latter. Only rock lists can take the damage it puts out and smack it back, but when that happens, it hurts like hell.

Is it just me who wonders how well this list would preform against a primairly deep striking army? I've always struggled abit when I decide to go with a CC fast moving list when the enemy cracks off their deep striking units and ruin my back line, forcing you to choose between carrying on the assault, or returning back, whilst being barraged on both sides.

As fast as the TWC are, their not the most durable thing in the world without SS and I see that really ruining the effectiveness.

feel free to dismiss my ponderings, Im still bitter from the Chaos Daemons army with ungodly deep striking.

Try to drop the IP's. It wont hurt to test it wouldn't it =)

Started reading the thread, and to be honest it went from good to bad to WTF in about 4seconds, then the last page opens up and we have Unholy_Martyr not only cooling the flames but taking an extinguisher to them, my hat is off to you good sir!

As to your list, I agree that while expensive, just ONE invul save could mean the difference, and for me has on so many occasions that I will always be biased towards taking one if available.

If you want the points I'ld advise going ahead with dropping an IP and bumping the squads, one less unit but more survivability across the board will help solve the Glass Hammer issue. Also are the bolters you're putting in the TWC squads earning any kills yet? I don't understand the point in puting a weapon that's only 12" range after moving and you can't assault after shooting it because of Rapid Fire special rule. If you have the extra points go crazy but otherwise invest elsewhere.

For your friend playing the 20 termies at 1750, I think Deathwing may be more of your playing style. While yes 20 termies sound scary, if you're playing them and I'm across the board I wouldn't start wetting myself until they're all LC's with a TH/SS in each group. With Furious Charge making them Str5 Init5 and rerolls to failed hit AND wound, a single squad of these bad boys means death to your TWC because until you throw a SS in there, there are no invul saves against them. Using Templar units at all, much less an Elite slot with a 24" range, as a firing platform shouldn't be the way the codex is played. Sorry about this sidetrack from the topic but I feel the need to comment on the 20 shooting termies at 1750.

One last comment is you stated that you can use any size base because they didn't have any TWC models but were using 60mm to represent them. GW actually has the one model mounted on a TWC which is, I'm sure you know, Canis Wolfborn. Although they don't have any models for the normal joes, any conversions/custom TWC must use the 60mm bases because of him. So kudos for getting the base sizes correct.

I would very much like to see you post a reworked version of your original list because it seems like a very themed and in-your-face style list.

We're all trying to help. We don't get anything from flaming some dude that's probably 108957438975843975 miles away from us.

Putting the Bolter on there is purely for wound allocation purposes. You never shoot with Thunderwolves as they are usually running to take advantage of fleet.

Against a good mechanized opponent, the las plas backs do something your wolves will have issues with: Cracking fast moving armor. You have quite a few Missile Launchers but due to their static nature, one could position themselves out of LOS and make you roll 6's to hit. Also, say you pop said transport in assault, now your opponent has free reign on the wolves. If they're plague marines they'll probably double tap you with plasma and bolters dropping 1-2 models. What I'm trying to get here is you get more flexibility.

Next up, we'll put my list against the nids. At this point, you can guarantee that the Swarmlord and Tyrant guard are dead first turn. From there, you're dropping 1-2 monstrous creatures a turn while your wolves have free reign on the little ones.

That's just my thoughts.


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Putting the Bolter on there is purely for wound allocation purposes. You never shoot with Thunderwolves as they are usually running to take advantage of fleet.

Against a good mechanized opponent, the las plas backs do something your wolves will have issues with: Cracking fast moving armor. You have quite a few Missile Launchers but due to their static nature, one could position themselves out of LOS and make you roll 6's to hit. Also, say you pop said transport in assault, now your opponent has free reign on the wolves. If they're plague marines they'll probably double tap you with plasma and bolters dropping 1-2 models. What I'm trying to get here is you get more flexibility.

Next up, we'll put my list against the nids. At this point, you can guarantee that the Swarmlord and Tyrant guard are dead first turn. From there, you're dropping 1-2 monstrous creatures a turn while your wolves have free reign on the little ones.

That's just my thoughts.

Aha! Figured it was wound allocation.

Here's some food for thought on the popping a transport in assault, block the access points.
With just one squad of TWC cracking open a rhino for example: 4x60mm bases placed one on either side and two on either back corner will prevent the squad from inside from disembarking, destroying every model that CAN'T disembark.
"Calgar was in that Land Raider with full Honour Guard? Bummer for the Lord of Macragge."

You gotta remember to use your bases to your advantage; pulling something like that could potentially be the game changer for you from defeat to victory.
When you play big you win big, so use your huge bases to your advantage!

Thank god for Unholy. Finally, I can post on this thread again.

So let's all stop whaling/flaming on Jabbdo, huh? That was kinda pointless in the first place, and it was kinda everyones fault. Firstly, the OP may have overreacted a bit, but hey, nobodys perfect! Then it became everone elses fault alongside him, pouring gasoling on the already burning flames. Then Unholy comes along, puts it out, and gets us back on track, perhaps better than even a mod...

On the new list, the one Unholy posted:

No complaints there, now that your GH have transports. My only suggestion is this: Take a frost blade and talisman on the lord, the blade out of personal preference, and the talisman beacuase especiually with what Jabbdo plays, psychics will have a ball wiht those TWC.

That's all I got to say.

Hope it works out for you, Jabbdo! Cheers for Unholy getting the thread back on track, and lets keep it clean! (although to be honest, I kinda wanted to join in the flaming... but repressed the urge.).

Either I'm getting old or there must be some amount of common sense creeping into my mind...that's just downright terrifying.

On the note of surrounding Transports, that is an exceptional way of killing 2 birds with one stone it is twice as difficult to pull off as getting all 4 models around is a chore enough but is doubly difficult when there remains the possibility that you may be short a wolf.


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Either I'm getting old or there must be some amount of common sense creeping into my mind...that's just downright terrifying.

On the note of surrounding Transports, that is an exceptional way of killing 2 birds with one stone it is twice as difficult to pull off as getting all 4 models around is a chore enough but is doubly difficult when there remains the possibility that you may be short a wolf.

OK, playing a game tomorrow, not sure what against, but most likely drop nids or chaos (?) Not sure yet. I'll post up a batrep if I have time to jot stuff down during the game, as time might be tight. Ill play using the orig list, at least for this game, just to illustrate how I play it, and next game I play, most likely on thursday, I'll play the variant Unholy_Martyr suggested.

Sorry to all for the unneeded rage earlier, was annoyed about things unconnected to wargaming and got carried away here.

Ahh, should have just said. We've all had days like that.

Let us know how it goes!

Oh no doubt it's difficult to block off ALL the access points of a transport.

However most of the time you only need to block 2 to kill half the models inside, and that really only takes 2 wolves because of the "'can't be with-in 1" of an enemy model"' rule. Two 60mm bases set 2" apart WILL deny the enemy 2 of their access points.
Let's say that the wolves are infront and to one side of a LandRaider that they just melta-bombed open. Set-up 2" apart, the two wolves have a total deny range of 9", which completly negates the front and one side of the LandRaider. The only remaining room is a 2"-by-3" bubble on the oppisite side. A model's base being one inch diameter means only SIX models can be placed inside this bubble. If you move the TWC on the side only .5" closer and the TWC in the front over that .5", you cut the bubble down into a 2"-by-2.5" area....only 5 models could possibly be placed legaly! What if the damage result was a 6? The few models there would then take a few armor saves and most likely lose at least one more model. And if this was a LRC you're almost guarenteed to have additional/more expensive models inside than just a ten man tac squad, most likely the termies that the opponent was driving forward and hoping to launch an assault on the TWC with next turn.

Killing 250 points and then a possible 96-240+ more just by correct placement around the vehicle? Difficult to acomplish maybe, but when it goes off you will have just floored two of the enemies most powerful units in one fel swoop, as well as quite possibly causing the remaining men to become pinned, leaving your TWC free to either grind them under with a charge or move off to bigger targets with-out worry.

I think Id rather just prefor an emergency disembarktion in that case...