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Armageddon if the Imperium could ever manage to secure it, or any number of Worlds between Terra and the Eye could be fortified. Though we are both assuming that the Chaos Gods would allow Abaddon to destroy Terra, for all we know them taking the whole of the Galaxy could have negative effects on the Warp.

Also I would say you are assuming that Chaos would have enough numbers to push past the Cadian Gate and the surrounding Sectors after the Battles, their numbers would be severely diminished by the heavy fighting and they would need time to recover before the final push which could allow time for the Imperium to rally forces for a counter push to drive Abaddon and his Legions back into the Eye.

BrotherStynier wrote:Armageddon if the Imperium could ever manage to secure it, or any number of Worlds between Terra and the Eye could be fortified. Though we are both assuming that the Chaos Gods would allow Abaddon to destroy Terra, for all we know them taking the whole of the Galaxy could have negative effects on the Warp.

I wonder if the Chaos Gods know that. Tzeench probably does, but is he also crazy enough to think it's a good thing...for him?

Also I would say you are assuming that Chaos would have enough numbers to push past the Cadian Gate and the surrounding Sectors after the Battles, their numbers would be severely diminished by the heavy fighting and they would need time to recover before the final push which could allow time for the Imperium to rally forces for a counter push to drive Abaddon and his Legions back into the Eye.

I'm not saying that Abbadon and his best-buddies-best-pals-best-friends actually stand a chance at cracking Terra open. The system, even just looking at Mars is likely to be a hundred times more fortified than Cadia. The fact remains though that if Cadia is taken, the Traitor legions do have a very strong basepoint to launch attacks at the cradle of mankind. Regardless of whether these attacks are successful (again, they probably won't be) the fact that they are even able to launch such attacks is a big thing.

BrotherStynier wrote:Though we are both assuming that the Chaos Gods would allow Abaddon to destroy Terra, for all we know them taking the whole of the Galaxy could have negative effects on the Warp.

The Chaos gods don't work like that. To take the easiest example, Khorne is rage and violence. Khorne doesn't do a cost-benefit analysis before deciding whether it would be convenient to do rage and violence today. Even if Khorne were aware that wiping out Terra would have negative consequences it wouldn't make a difference. Chaos is a force of nature, and the Chaos gods are inherently incapable of restraint. Tzeentch would be scheming both for and against Abaddon, just because that's what Tzeentch does. The slightly saner followers of Chaos might think these things through, but I don't think the Chaos gods themselves do thinking at all. Any reluctance to storm in and burn Terra to the ground would be necessarily in opposition to Khorne. The other gods might play things differently, but there's no Chaos god of self-preservation, and I wouldn't count on Abaddon to hold back if he were ever given the chance.

As for early human colonization, I think it's made pretty clear that any clashes with the pre-fall Eldar Empire would have seen the humans casually annihilated. It appears that while the Eldar had mastery of the entire galaxy they didn't bother actually settling all that many worlds outside of their core homeworlds, and didn't pay much attention to the activities of lesser races on worlds that they didn't directly claim. Humans certainly weren't wresting control of worlds away from the Eldar, they were just settling everywhere they could get away with it and hoping the Eldar didn't show up to send them packing. It was only after the fall that humanity could even consider stepping foot on a formerly Eldar-claimed world and living to tell the tale, and even then it seems that such planets were given a very wide berth for fear of conflict with an otherwise indifferent power. The fact that humanity at its height, with the Emperor and the Primarchs striding around the galaxy stomping on everyone and anyone, avoided uninhabited Maiden Worlds so as not to upset the post-fall Eldar speaks volumes about the respect afforded to Eldar military power at the time. That respect certainly doesn't exist anymore, and arguably wasn't justified during the crusade, but I'd bet such a reputation was well earned in the days when the Eldar were the undisputed galactic superpower.

Temujin wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:Though we are both assuming that the Chaos Gods would allow Abaddon to destroy Terra, for all we know them taking the whole of the Galaxy could have negative effects on the Warp.

The Chaos gods don't work like that. To take the easiest example, Khorne is rage and violence. Khorne doesn't do a cost-benefit analysis before deciding whether it would be convenient to do rage and violence today. Even if Khorne were aware that wiping out Terra would have negative consequences it wouldn't make a difference. Chaos is a force of nature, and the Chaos gods are inherently incapable of restraint. Tzeentch would be scheming both for and against Abaddon, just because that's what Tzeentch does. The slightly saner followers of Chaos might think these things through, but I don't think the Chaos gods themselves do thinking at all. Any reluctance to storm in and burn Terra to the ground would be necessarily in opposition to Khorne. The other gods might play things differently, but there's no Chaos god of self-preservation, and I wouldn't count on Abaddon to hold back if he were ever given the chance.

Tzeentch doesnt scheme just for the sake of it. He isnt going to oppose himself just for fun. He WILL oppose his own schemes if down the track it leads to a better result (something that he can perceive better than anything else). Generally the Chaos Gods themselves are far beyond anything that the characters in the game/universe can imagine. They are more than capable of restraint because in the warp time is meaningless. That is why slaanesh that is only 10000 years old (in real time) has been in the warp since the start. And will be there at the end.

As for early human colonization, I think it's made pretty clear that any clashes with the pre-fall Eldar Empire would have seen the humans casually annihilated. It appears that while the Eldar had mastery of the entire galaxy they didn't bother actually settling all that many worlds outside of their core homeworlds, and didn't pay much attention to the activities of lesser races on worlds that they didn't directly claim. Humans certainly weren't wresting control of worlds away from the Eldar, they were just settling everywhere they could get away with it and hoping the Eldar didn't show up to send them packing. It was only after the fall that humanity could even consider stepping foot on a formerly Eldar-claimed world and living to tell the tale, and even then it seems that such planets were given a very wide berth for fear of conflict with an otherwise indifferent power. The fact that humanity at its height, with the Emperor and the Primarchs striding around the galaxy stomping on everyone and anyone, avoided uninhabited Maiden Worlds so as not to upset the post-fall Eldar speaks volumes about the respect afforded to Eldar military power at the time. That respect certainly doesn't exist anymore, and arguably wasn't justified during the crusade, but I'd bet such a reputation was well earned in the days when the Eldar were the undisputed galactic superpower.

Im curious how do you know they avoided maiden worlds? reading the HH series they dont seem to care what they face. The legions will kill anything. By the time of the crusade the eldar had already fallen, so they werent a threat to man.

Given that Cadia and other systems so close to what once was the Eye of Terror were supposedly colonised after the Fall, I don't think that much heed was paid to the remnants of a dying race. To be sure the Eldar Empire put paid to any notions of human enroachment at their height, but by the time of the Crusades I don't see much evidence that the Empire and his primarchs went out of their way to avoid Maiden Worlds.

ChaosGalvatron wrote:Tzeentch doesnt scheme just for the sake of it. He isnt going to oppose himself just for fun. He WILL oppose his own schemes if down the track it leads to a better result (something that he can perceive better than anything else). Generally the Chaos Gods themselves are far beyond anything that the characters in the game/universe can imagine. They are more than capable of restraint because in the warp time is meaningless. That is why slaanesh that is only 10000 years old (in real time) has been in the warp since the start. And will be there at the end.

You have to remember that a good result for Tzeentch is one in which he/she/it is empowered by scheming. So schemes within schemes and schemes opposing those schemes are inherently benefitial to Tzeentch. They are certainly incapable of restraining themselves from expressing the traits that they embody. Embody might even be understating it - given the structure of the warp they actually made of the emotions that they are associated with. Time seems irrelevant to me, but speaking of Tzeentch, of course he/she/it is capable of patience, since that is all part of being a schemer. Tzeentch could not however restrain himself/herself/itself from scheming since Tzeentch's entire existence is scheming (along with the other aspects that are associated with Tzeentch).

ChaosGalvatron wrote:Im curious how do you know they avoided maiden worlds? reading the HH series they dont seem to care what they face. The legions will kill anything. By the time of the crusade the eldar had already fallen, so they werent a threat to man.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Given that Cadia and other systems so close to what once was the Eye of Terror were supposedly colonised after the Fall, I don't think that much heed was paid to the remnants of a dying race. To be sure the Eldar Empire put paid to any notions of human enroachment at their height, but by the time of the Crusades I don't see much evidence that the Empire and his primarchs went out of their way to avoid Maiden Worlds.

In Fulgrim when they land on a Maiden World it is made clear that they are usually left untouched. I would concur that the Eldar were no longer an existential threat during the heresy, but I guess when you've spent thousands of years tip-toeing around an unassailable empire you get stuck with the idea that stepping foot on their worlds equals death. I imagine it took a fair bit of cautious encroachment before the Imperium got used to the idea that they could take on the Eldar without being crushed. At the time they were still within living memory of the pre-fall Eldar, though few people would have been able to travel far given that the fall coincided with the abating of the warp storms.

Temujin wrote:In Fulgrim when they land on a Maiden World it is made clear that they are usually left untouched. I would concur that the Eldar were no longer an existential threat during the heresy, but I guess when you've spent thousands of years tip-toeing around an unassailable empire you get stuck with the idea that stepping foot on their worlds equals death. I imagine it took a fair bit of cautious encroachment before the Imperium got used to the idea that they could take on the Eldar without being crushed. At the time they were still within living memory of the pre-fall Eldar, though few people would have been able to travel far given that the fall coincided with the abating of the warp storms.

Fair enough, I haven't actually read the novel myself. Could you perhaps give us a token paragraph? I just want to clarify whether avoiding Maiden Worlds was a matter of Imperial policy or if it was only Fulgrim's personal qualms.

nickmund wrote:Ive got another bit of contradictory fluff.
In tales of heresy.

Spoiler:

When the Space Wolves are fighting the Dark Eldar on a lost human world the natives seem to make out that the Dark Eldar have been harvesting thier people for thousands of years.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think I preffer to belive whats in the HH novels rather than the DE codex.

They do not contradict. The Dark Eldar existed thousands of years before the fall. They are the ones that caused it. The actual name Dark Eldar was coined by Vect in like M32ish but that cult existed long before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I admit I was a bit confused about the timeline myself. I thought The Fall happened like 50 million years ago but Codex Dark Eldar set me straight. It was in M30 and is the exact reason why the Emperor ventured forth from earth. The Galaxy had become untravable at the time because of the Eldar's non-stop-torture-orgies. The birth of Slaanesh and tear known as the Eye of Terror put out the warp storms the way an Explosion can be used to put out a fire. The rest, as they say, is history.

Pilau Rice wrote: as we know the fall did happen.

I think you mean it will happen, in 26 thousand years that is :0P

nickmund wrote:The fall of the Eldar created the age of stife it didn't end it.
The birth of Slaanesh didn't dispell the warp storms it created them.
How could the birth of a Chaos god make the warp calm?
If the fall of the Eldar happened just before the great crusade Im pretty sure the Empeor and his Legions would have run into a hell of a lot more Eldar rather than just that one craft world that Fulgrim meets.

40kwiki wrote:The deaths of hundreds of thousands of Eldar in extremely pleasurable and/or painful ways -- and the concomitant entry of huge numbers of their souls into the Warp -- had an unintended, and catastrophic, side-effect: The restless souls of the dead Eldar caused the formation of terrible Warp storms, which made interstellar travel extremely difficult in the physical realm (This was one of the factors that precipitated humanity's Age of Strife). A far worse effect, however, was that these souls began to somehow coalesce into a larger entity, a living, psychic embodiment of the corruption that had taken their lives. As more and more Eldar died to fuel the decadence and depravity of their society, this entity continued to grow, and the Warp storms continued to grow worse.

In the early 30th millennium, this great warp entity finally attained full sentience. In the last few years before its birth, many Eldar were driven insane by the uncontrolled psychic energies possessed by this embryonic entity. Many Eldar who had stayed behind on their homeworlds to try and turn their race away from the decadence that had consumed them saw what was happening and knew that something terrible was about to occur. These Eldar left the empire behind, fleeing aboard colossal spacecraft called Craftworlds and taking any plants, animals or other pieces of the Eldar culture and their homeworlds' environments with them.

At last the entity suddenly came to life, and was said to have "taken its first breath"; this first 'breath' instantly slew the overwhelming majority of the Eldar who lived in the empire as their souls were 'inhaled' by the entity. The death toll was so massive within the Eldar empire that Warp energy literally spilled over into the physical realm, creating a permanent interface of realspace and Warpspace later known to the Imperium of Man as the Eye of Terror. Even the Eldar who had fled their empire were affected -— many Exodites and Craftworlders fell dead as their souls were also sucked from them. As well, many psykers of other races were also driven insane or killed by the power that had been unleashed. This new entity became the fourth major Chaos God, Slaanesh, the Prince of Pleasure, and the Eldar empire was no more.