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I'm sorry if this has been brought up before, but I looked for a few pages and unless I missed it I didn't see anything that looked like this on there, and we all know how Dakka's search can be. Anyway, now that I've read the new Dark Eldar book, I'm left kind of baffled as to the timeline. I've been playing Warhammer in it's various versions since 1998, and although I'm mainly a Fantasy player, I tend to get more into the 40k storyline. But in the new Dark Eldar book, it dates the Fall at M31, which is around the same time as the Horus Heresy. I've never read anything like that before. In fact, I'd always seen the figure put more around M24 or 25. My question is, if that's the case, did it happen just before the Emperor kicked off his Crusade? Since the Fall created the Eye of Terror, which is where the renegade Space Marine Legions fled to after the Heresy, I have to assume that it was right before the Heresy, although if that's the case then why do we never hear anything about it in all the Horus Heresy books? The birth of a new Chaos god seems like a fairly significant event, at least to warrant the Emperor's attention. Or was the birth of Slaanesh what stopped the Warp storms that allowed the Imperium's begginnings? I know these sound rhetorical, but seriously, if anyone has any loremasterness that they could shed on this question I'd appreciate it.

eledamris wrote:My question is, if that's the case, did it happen just before the Emperor kicked off his Crusade? Since the Fall created the Eye of Terror, which is where the renegade Space Marine Legions fled to after the Heresy, I have to assume that it was right before the Heresy...Or was the birth of Slaanesh what stopped the Warp storms that allowed the Imperium's begginnings?

This is all correct, according to Codex: Eldar.

Yep, Slaanesh "birth" killed the warp storms that had been prevalent, allowing warp travel again.

That's right on. I believe it stated the warp was turbulent due to the Eldar degradations...and the birth of Slaanesh calmed the warp.

I've always wondered, by the fluff, what would have happened had the Eldar not fallen? The Imperium would still have the Emperor....but no warp travel...

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yep, Slaanesh "birth" killed the warp storms that had been prevalent, allowing warp travel again.

AgeOfEgos wrote:That's right on. I believe it stated the warp was turbulent due to the Eldar degradations...and the birth of Slaanesh calmed the warp.

I've always wondered, by the fluff, what would have happened had the Eldar not fallen? The Imperium would still have the Emperor....but no warp travel...

hmm, well, the Eldar would be the most dominant race in the galaxy still and probably a lot more dangerous than they are now. They would be closer to the Dark Eldar, who claim to be the true Eldar, over their Craftworld brethren.

Slaanesh would possibly never have came into existence or very latter on possibly due to mankind.

Chaos might not have been so interested in humans as the Eldar were still the big players.

The Emperor might have kept hold of the Primarchs.

Possibly if he knew that they Fall wasn't going to happen and that Terra would still be cut off by the Warp Storms he might not have gone any further than creating the Thunder Warriors.

Terra would be very over crowded

The Emperor waited for millennia to emerge as the leader of mankind. He could just wait a few more until the time was right. It's not like it was a coincidence that had Terra kicked into shape at just the right time to launch the great crusade. Apart from that one slip up at the end of the heresy the guy had pretty good foresight.

Good foresight or not that was probably the biggest fail by any one person in the 40k lore lol.

CHaos would still have mucked around with the primarchs - storms or not the emperor was their biggest threat, so destruction through progeny is a very tzeentch thing to do.

If you read first heretic it elaborates on exactly *how* the primarchs were lost, as well.

nosferatu1001 wrote:CHaos would still have mucked around with the primarchs - storms or not the emperor was their biggest threat, so destruction through progeny is a very tzeentch thing to do.

Possibly, but Slaanesh wasn't around to eat the majority of the Eldar Gods so they would've still been around. Maybe the Primarchs would've been dealt with a different way. Maybe the Eldar find the Mon Keigh and destroy Terra, knowing what they are capable of.

It's if's and buts anyway as we know the fall did happen.

nosferatu1001 wrote:If you read first heretic it elaborates on exactly *how* the primarchs were lost, as well.

Yeah, those Word bearers are rascals aren't they eh?

nosferatu1001 wrote:CHaos would still have mucked around with the primarchs - storms or not the emperor was their biggest threat, so destruction through progeny is a very tzeentch thing to do.

If you read first heretic it elaborates on exactly *how* the primarchs were lost, as well.

Again, much like the earlier 'vision' shown Horus, I'm not sure how "true" these versions of events are.

Being shown anything by Chaos - well, who knows really.

I'd love to see this event from the Imperial side, but I doubt that's happening anytime soon...

Well now I know, and knowing is half the battle.

So then... human civilization is older than the Eldar's? Because the Great Crusade was intended to unite the ancient human civilization that had spread out across the galaxy, which means there was a galactic human civilization before the Warp storms began, so it was there before the Eldar Empire. Hmm...

Have a look at this for an idea of what was happening, might help

http://www.scholaprogenium.com/timeline.html

I think the guy has done his best to keep it as factual as possible.

It would really depend on what the Eldar did to abate their fall. If their society changed or evolved to subdue their decadent ways, perhaps the warp would have calmed anyways and humanity would have been able to venture back out into the cosmos.

Of course, the Eldar would be there, in much larger numbers, to confront the Imperium. The Emperor would either have to reverse his policy on Xenos or be caught up in a war Humanity couldn't win.

Actually if anything the Emperor might be revered by the Eldar as a Old one or a god. As the Eldar gods would still be living.

Eledamis - no, really, no. Eldar = million year fall from grace. Humans? Slight blip.

The way I understood it the Fall cleared most of the galaxy of the Eldar, only the colonies far from the Eye of terror remained.
If this is correct, that means that humanity's first expansion into the stars was an expansion into Eldar territory. I have a hard time believing that the Eldar would just allow an upstart race like humanity to colonize "their" worlds. It seems to me that at their peak the Eldar could easily have beaten Humanity. So are my facts wrong, or did the Eldar tolerate the first human colonists?

That timeline doesn't seem that accurate....simply because well, it put the writing of the Codex Astartes before the Horus Heresy, and says the Eldar only began building their craftworlds by M30 or something....

I'm pretty sure the fluff is that the Fall of the Eldar, formation of the Eye of Terror, and birth of Slaanesh spent the Warps energy enough that the storms around Terra dissipated, allowing the Great Crusade to occur. If I recall correctly, the Eldar Codex specifically says that the 'death of the Eldar allowed for the rise of Man' or something along those lines.

ChrisWWII wrote:That timeline doesn't seem that accurate....simply because well, it put the writing of the Codex Astartes before the Horus Heresy, and says the Eldar only began building their craftworlds by M30 or something....

Some of it is out but I think it's a fairly good and accurate attempt. It's kinda saying around this time, it would've been in M31 that the codex astartes was put into play

sixes wrote:The way I understood it the Fall cleared most of the galaxy of the Eldar, only the colonies far from the Eye of terror remained.
If this is correct, that means that humanity's first expansion into the stars was an expansion into Eldar territory. I have a hard time believing that the Eldar would just allow an upstart race like humanity to colonize "their" worlds. It seems to me that at their peak the Eldar could easily have beaten Humanity. So are my facts wrong, or did the Eldar tolerate the first human colonists?

During the Dark Age of Technology humanity had the Iron Men fight thier wars. Humanity made many treaties with aliens, because they could always fight them later, and there was plenty to explore already. When the golden age ended, and mankind imploded, and the aliens invaded the weak neighboring human worlds.

sixes wrote:The way I understood it the Fall cleared most of the galaxy of the Eldar, only the colonies far from the Eye of terror remained.

You realisde Ulthwe proabably the most psychologically connected Elder, live remarkably close to the Eye of Terror right? read the eldar codex before posting about the fall of Eldar please.

sixes wrote:The way I understood it the Fall cleared most of the galaxy of the Eldar, only the colonies far from the Eye of terror remained.
If this is correct, that means that humanity's first expansion into the stars was an expansion into Eldar territory. I have a hard time believing that the Eldar would just allow an upstart race like humanity to colonize "their" worlds. It seems to me that at their peak the Eldar could easily have beaten Humanity. So are my facts wrong, or did the Eldar tolerate the first human colonists?

Some of the craftworlds got caught in the wake of slaanesh's birth. One only in recent history managed to escape from the warp for the most part intact. Others seemed to avoid getting sucked into the warp due to being far away enough. Also remember nearly ALL of the eldar have died at this point. Their empire was situated around the eye of terrors current location. At least the main portion of it. Remember at their peak the Eldar Empire was sliding into debauchery and dark arts. Seemingly becoming quite insular and not giving humanity a second thought as they seemed to be so arrogant that they felt they were above all the other races. Those emotions of course helping slaanesh's growth even more.

There's a terrific quote in one of the heresy books where Eldrad is talking about the Emperor. Something along the lines of 'visions of a powerful golden armored warrior fighting the chaos entities in the warp..."

Asherian Command wrote:Actually if anything the Emperor might be revered by the Eldar as a Old one or a god. As the Eldar gods would still be living.

To bad, then, that the Emperor can only sit on the golden toilet.

It is really interesting to think of the outcome of humanity if the Eldar hadn't fallen...

I've often wondered if the fall is what sprung the beginnings of the heresy.

But that's in the past. Now, we must worry about when the eldar will die out, if ever, and if nids will consume the galaxy.

eledamris wrote:So then... human civilization is older than the Eldar's? Because the Great Crusade was intended to unite the ancient human civilization that had spread out across the galaxy, which means there was a galactic human civilization before the Warp storms began, so it was there before the Eldar Empire. Hmm...

The original human expansion across the galaxy has not been described in detail, but what has been said aout it suggests that it was not a co-ordinated effort of a single coherent civilisation, but rather a quite disjointed happening.

Don't forget, even since Rogue Trader, GW have taken pains to say that the Empire is not a coherent whole with defined borders, but is actually a sprwaling mess, jumbled up with Eldar, Ork, and other races. Just because you are travelling from one human planet through the warp, to another to another, it doesn't mean all the realspace between those places willl be human-controlled.

Tekeino wrote:

sixes wrote:The way I understood it the Fall cleared most of the galaxy of the Eldar, only the colonies far from the Eye of terror remained.

You realisde Ulthwe proabably the most psychologically connected Elder, live remarkably close to the Eye of Terror right? read the eldar codex before posting about the fall of Eldar please.

You realise that the Eldar codices (2nd Ed and 4th Ed anyway), both state quite explicitly that only far-distant exodite colonies and the earliest craftworlds to depart the Eldar homeworlds and get farthest away surived the fall, right? You realise craftworlds can move, especially over the course of ten millenia, right? Read the Eldar Codex, apply some common sense and be polite before telling other people what to do please.

Eldar Codex, Page 5, Para 2: "...Most of those who had foreseen the catastrophe and fled upon the craftworlds were overhwelmed, with only the furthest from the devastation surviving. The remote Exodite worlds remained largely untouched."

Fifty wrote:The original human expansion across the galaxy has not been described in detail, but what has been said aout it suggests that it was not a co-ordinated effort of a single coherent civilisation, but rather a quite disjointed happening.

Have to call myself on that one, just in case someone comes along and dredges this thread up to accuse me of bad fluff-fu.

Been re-reading WD129 and prior to 25k there was a pan-galactic human civilisation.

um, i actually think that the fall happened waaaaay before the HH. there is this one quote in the eldar codex that says something along the lines of : we have been singing songs of lamentation long before man even crawled out of the seas (or something like that)

The Fall happened at the beginning of the Great Crusade/end of the Age of Strife. Pure and simple. The quote from the Eldar codex is just Eldrad being the arrogant dick he is and mocking humanity for being not as ancient a race as the Eldar.

ChrisWWII wrote:The Fall happened at the beginning of the Great Crusade/end of the Age of Strife. Pure and simple. The quote from the Eldar codex is just Eldrad being the arrogant dick he is and mocking humanity for being not as ancient a race as the Eldar.

Pretty much this. There have been other mentions I think that would contradict the new time line chronicling the fall but I guess that's been retconned now.

The fall of the Eldar created the age of stife it didn't end it.
The birth of Slaanesh didn't dispell the warp storms it created them.
How could the birth of a Chaos god make the warp calm?
If the fall of the Eldar happened just before the great crusade Im pretty sure the Empeor and his Legions would have run into a hell of a lot more Eldar rather than just that one craft world that Fulgrim meets.

Plus.