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The old ones are not the eldar gods. They are just a super intelligent reptilian species if WHF fluff is anything to go by.

Also they did not create the eldar, the eldar are the children of Isha, one of the actual eldar gods.

Eldrad wrote:th one thing i dont get is why is it so imposible for the hive mind to just be a pist off god or old one in hiding some were in another galixy just directing the nids around they would be smart anough to

It's not possible because the background states that the Hive Mind is exactly that, the hive's mind, a gestalt consciousness formed from all the individual consciousnesses of every Tyranid organism.

Exopheric wrote:Xenology has some weird and questionable stuff in it, but it implied that the Eldar gods were engineered by the Old Ones along with the Eldar.

It does? I just had a re-read and didn't see anything that would allude to that conclusion but I am a little tired so maybe I missed it. Is there a specific passage you could direct me to?

The book also suggested that Old Ones could exist in either the Warp or realspace, and maybe didn't have a single form. The Umbra are the remains of the last of the Old Ones, after Slaanesh got through with it.

Again, I would question that first assertion, I don't see much evidence of the Old Ones being discussed in Xenology, unless you can direct me to some reference I missed. As to the Umbra, I can only assume that the mad ravings of Salvador come from Slaanesh and his mention of, 'She's born in the longears' brains' and, 'chops him a million times, and kicks the shards out into the cold.' sounds more like the destruction of Khaine to me than anything related to the Umbra.

LeetBix wrote:The old ones are not the eldar gods. They are just a super intelligent reptilian species if WHF fluff is anything to go by.

Also they did not create the eldar, the eldar are the children of Isha, one of the actual eldar gods.

1. you seemed to haven't read alot of fluff, the eldar are one of the many sentient races created by the old ones to fight against the c'tan
2. warp gods are created by the thoughts of mortal beings not the other way round
3. the thousands and thousands of years that the eldar have existed has probable led to a melding of facts into their present creation myths, it can be assumed the the eldar gods as presented in myth are a mix of actual old ones and the warp entities, with the production of the eldar being done by the old ones and the eldar gods forming from the minds of the eldar (although the idea that the shape these warp entities took was guided by the old ones is quite plausable). while certain material actions by the old ones in relation to the eldar (such as the possible true origin of the blackstone fortresses) have been attributed to the eldar gods as the knowledge of the old ones is lost.
4. whf and 40k are seperate, 100%, that is what GW HQ has now gone for.

Gogsnik wrote:

Eldrad wrote:th one thing i dont get is why is it so imposible for the hive mind to just be a pist off god or old one in hiding some were in another galixy just directing the nids around they would be smart anough to

It's not possible because the background states that the Hive Mind is exactly that, the hive's mind, a gestalt consciousness formed from all the individual consciousnesses of every Tyranid organism.

Exopheric wrote:Xenology has some weird and questionable stuff in it, but it implied that the Eldar gods were engineered by the Old Ones along with the Eldar.

It does? I just had a re-read and didn't see anything that would allude to that conclusion but I am a little tired so maybe I missed it. Is there a specific passage you could direct me to?

The book also suggested that Old Ones could exist in either the Warp or realspace, and maybe didn't have a single form. The Umbra are the remains of the last of the Old Ones, after Slaanesh got through with it.

Again, I would question that first assertion, I don't see much evidence of the Old Ones being discussed in Xenology, unless you can direct me to some reference I missed. As to the Umbra, I can only assume that the mad ravings of Salvador come from Slaanesh and his mention of, 'She's born in the longears' brains' and, 'chops him a million times, and kicks the shards out into the cold.' sounds more like the destruction of Khaine to me than anything related to the Umbra.

"Star Devils lock horns triumphant and Old Gods killed-away. Killed, she says, all but one. Hid away, he did. Up to his Old Ways, tweaking and dabbling, poking and prodding...." Suggests to me the war between the Old Ones and the C'tan, with one survivor. After he did the things he set out to do he retreated back into the warp only to encounter Slaanesh and her new Cusinart. There are parallels to the Hrud patron described later in the book. However, Xenology also confuses or conflates archetypal gods like Khaine, Isha and Cegorach with the Old Ones and it's difficult to come up with a clear explanation. Umm, I really can't recall where I saw that first idea now, maybe I made it up....

BluntmanDC wrote:3. the thousands and thousands of years that the eldar have existed has probable led to a melding of facts into their present creation myths, it can be assumed the the eldar gods as presented in myth are a mix of actual old ones and the warp entities, with the production of the eldar being done by the old ones and the eldar gods forming from the minds of the eldar (although the idea that the shape these warp entities took was guided by the old ones is quite plausable). while certain material actions by the old ones in relation to the eldar (such as the possible true origin of the blackstone fortresses) have been attributed to the eldar gods as the knowledge of the old ones is lost.

imo the bit of information that most strongly suggests this is the idea that Cegorach managed to trick one of the C'Tan into eating his fellows. I'd hazard a guess that the Harlequin god Cegorach in fact originated in the myths and legends revolving around one particularly crafty Old One.

But it would then be the act of believing in cegorach in myth and worship that would create the warp being cegorach, when fact is then replaced with myth and religion that is when the gods are formed and the original deeds of the old ones are given over to the newly born gods.

The old ones are their own race. They had a fight with the C'tan and made The Krork (Orks). They are not the same guys as lizardmen gods or slann. It is an alternative timeline.

BluntmanDC wrote:But it would then be the act of believing in cegorach in myth and worship that would create the warp being cegorach, when fact is then replaced with myth and religion that is when the gods are formed and the original deeds of the old ones are given over to the newly born gods.

Kind of like how the warp version of George Washington would chop down cherry trees, and the warp version of Abraham Lincoln would be scrupulously honest.

purplefood wrote:Do you know what's interesting?
Dinosaurs are older than most of the species in 40k despite their suposed ancient-ness...

That IS pretty interesting, considering how relatively recently dinosaurs existed. It's really been nothing more than a blip between the dinosaurs and now.

What's intersting is dinosaurs died out at the same time as everything else: 60-65 million years ago.
Also interesting is dinosaurs are found on Eldar Exodite planets.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:What's intersting is dinosaurs died out at the same time as everything else: 60-65 million years ago.
Also interesting is dinosaurs are found on Eldar Exodite planets.

Clearly this means only one thing:
VELOCIRAPTORS ARE OLD ONES

Klawz wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:What's intersting is dinosaurs died out at the same time as everything else: 60-65 million years ago.
Also interesting is dinosaurs are found on Eldar Exodite planets.

Clearly this means only one thing:
VELOCIRAPTORS ARE OLD ONES

what? no, I....uh nevermind...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Klawz wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:What's intersting is dinosaurs died out at the same time as everything else: 60-65 million years ago.
Also interesting is dinosaurs are found on Eldar Exodite planets.

Clearly this means only one thing:
VELOCIRAPTORS ARE OLD ONES

what? no, I....uh nevermind...

This is the truth, you know it is so. Velociraptors have infiltraited up to the highest levels of government, what's to stop them from being old ones?

Exopheric wrote:Umm, I really can't recall where I saw that first idea now, maybe I made it up....

Fair enough.

"Star Devils lock horns triumphant and Old Gods killed-away. Killed, she says, all but one. Hid away, he did. Up to his Old Ways, tweaking and dabbling, poking and prodding...." Suggests to me the war between the Old Ones and the C'tan, with one survivor. After he did the things he set out to do he retreated back into the warp only to encounter Slaanesh and her new Cusinart. There are parallels to the Hrud patron described later in the book. However, Xenology also confuses or conflates archetypal gods like Khaine, Isha and Cegorach with the Old Ones and it's difficult to come up with a clear explanation.

I wasn't sure about that either, its pretty vague but I would agree that it seems to indicate an Old One potentially.

Yeah, I think I read something about how Gork and Mork are more powerful than all the chaos gods combined.... Which brings up my question....If the orks created their own warp gods from their emotions, then why hasn't the eternal hunger of the tyranids created something in the warp?

Is it because they're a 'shadow in the warp'? That they have no presence in the warp in the first place?

Well I read an article on the hive mind, it said that it wasnt really a being but a collective consciousness, it sounded very similiar to the ork gods now that I read it. MAYBE the hive mind IS the warp! Could make sense, or I just felt like making a very controversial theory.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/02/40k-fluff-nature-of-hivemind.html

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Yeah, I think I read something about how Gork and Mork are more powerful than all the chaos gods combined.... Which brings up my question....If the orks created their own warp gods from their emotions, then why hasn't the eternal hunger of the tyranids created something in the warp?

Is it because they're a 'shadow in the warp'? That they have no presence in the warp in the first place?

Well I read an article on the hive mind, it said that it wasnt really a being but a collective consciousness, it sounded very similiar to the ork gods now that I read it. MAYBE the hive mind IS the warp! Could make sense, or I just felt like making a very controversial theory.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/02/40k-fluff-nature-of-hivemind.html

Well, if the hive mind IS the warp then that would mean that the Chaos Gods, which reside in the warp are a part of the hive mind. That is something that I find very very unlikely.

In the 40k orcs codex it talks about a lost race. They created the orcs as soldiers. They used psyhic powers to control the Orcs but eventually died off from some sickness that didnt transfer to the races they created. Leaving orcs leaderless to go nuts fighting everything. There not anything anymore.

haha it is unlikely. but it sounds interesting. The warp is natural, the tyranid are described as a force of nature. The hive fleets create a shadow in the warp and communication is transmitted instantly to tyranid forces. The hive mind seems to do almost everything through the warp. Also, the article in my above message describes it as a collective conciousness not a living thing. So where else would it reside? No its not the warp lol to far fetched. I believe however that it resides in the warp like any god, and is similiar to an ork god, having been CREATED by Tyranid consciensnous.

Hmm, perhaps the hive mind is like the bugs from starship troopers that truly has one single leader controlling them all, or influencing them atleast? If that isn't so then there are some that are smart that control the lessers, but are all connected to eachother so they know what they are doing?
This one sound confusing to anyone else but me?

The Hive Mind is very well documented in Codex: Tyranids. No conjecture is needed. All Synapse are the Hive mind and the Hive mind is all Synapse creatures.

Hmm...well if you look at the rule book, you will find a table of all the nids forces linking to something or another. At the root of it all is the hive mind, which implies that it is a single creature, or to me it does.
I haven't had a chance to look at the new nid dex, nor did I actually read the fluff in the last ed.

it implies it is a single entity, not a singe creature.

The Old Ones are in game references to the old school game designers like Jervis Johnson.

zadelistol wrote:Hmm...well if you look at the rule book, you will find a table of all the nids forces linking to something or another. At the root of it all is the hive mind, which implies that it is a single creature, or to me it does.
I haven't had a chance to look at the new nid dex, nor did I actually read the fluff in the last ed.

Actually i think the table thing is the geaology as some of the Tyranids evolved directly from others and some don't... it's like an alien family tree.

Ah. Well as I said in that post thats how it looked to me.
At a GW I used to go to, someone created a massive model to represent the hive mind. It was on display for a few months then i dont know what happened to it.

To the conversation about who ruled over the orks or directed them if you will was by other orks such as meck boys. You no those orks who get a torch and weld random things together and then it becomes a gun or a trukk those guys. They are the smarter ones who are ment to lead the orks only under the Old ones rule. By the way im getting this nolige from a guy who works at a store called greenfield games or griffins game and the guy calls himself buba. He is a big white dude who noes fluff but not how to play the game so if im wrong sorry. Ghazkul = ork Jesus

Eldrad wrote:To the conversation about who ruled over the orks or directed them if you will was by other orks such as meck boys. You no those orks who get a torch and weld random things together and then it becomes a gun or a trukk those guys. They are the smarter ones who are ment to lead the orks only under the Old ones rule. By the way im getting this nolige from a guy who works at a store called greenfield games or griffins game and the guy calls himself buba. He is a big white dude who noes fluff but not how to play the game so if im wrong sorry. Ghazkul = ork Jesus

Then you can tell Buba (should that be Bubba?) he's wrong. Meks did not rule orks under the guidance of the Old Ones; even without delving into the Brain Boyz background all we know for sure is that a green-skinned race called the Krork were used by the Old Ones, how their society was structured, how the Old Ones treated with them and how similar (if at all) they were to modern Orks is not mentioned in the background so anyone claiming they know is mistaken or talking out of their fundament.

Meks lead the Orks on Angelis (the setting for GorkaMorka) where they took on a leadership and semi-religious role. Perhaps Buba was thinking of that.

zadelistol wrote:Hmm...well if you look at the rule book, you will find a table of all the nids forces linking to something or another. At the root of it all is the hive mind, which implies that it is a single creature, or to me it does.
I haven't had a chance to look at the new nid dex, nor did I actually read the fluff in the last ed.

The Hive Mind is the collective conciousness of the entire Tyranid race, a psychic 'entity' made up of the collective minds of the entire race. This is why the Tyranids always seem to work in perfect harmony, even across hive fleets - what one Tyranid knows, all Tyranids know. Synapse creatures are the focal points, which have a slight degree of self awareness, guide the swarm based on that collective knowledge. The higher up the chain of synapse creatures, the more self awareness they have. Hive Tyrants are near the top, with only Dominatrices, Norn Queens and the Swarmlord above them. There is no one leader, with the possible exception of the Swarmlord, but he is only spawned when the Tyranids just can't win, it's not a permanant part of a hive fleet.

Eldrad wrote:To the conversation about who ruled over the orks or directed them if you will was by other orks such as meck boys. You no those orks who get a torch and weld random things together and then it becomes a gun or a trukk those guys. They are the smarter ones who are ment to lead the orks only under the Old ones rule. By the way im getting this nolige from a guy who works at a store called greenfield games or griffins game and the guy calls himself buba. He is a big white dude who noes fluff but not how to play the game so if im wrong sorry. Ghazkul = ork Jesus

Orks only have tech skills and psy abilites becouse the Brain Boyz (Old Ones?) where dumbing down (dying) and incoded the knowledge into there genes. Meks were never meant to lead, they are living stroes houses of the Brain Boyz knowledge and mental abitiles.

BluntmanDC wrote:

ShadowAngel159 wrote:Does anyone not remember that the Slann were Slaaneshi-worshipping psycho lizards that were wiped out by the Emperor's Children in the HH book Fulgrim?

If that is what created the races of 40k (minus 'cronies and the roaches), may the Emperor save us all. Every being is the spawn of Slaanesh.

**puts bolt pistol to the head and prepares to pull the trigger**

the slann predate the birth of slaanesh (the chaos god) by thousands and thousands of years (maybe it was a small group of slann that turned to chaos), and the old ones themselves predate all the chaos gods.

I think ShadowAngel159 is referring to the Laeran, the multiple armed snake like things.

-Loki- wrote:

zadelistol wrote:Hmm...well if you look at the rule book, you will find a table of all the nids forces linking to something or another. At the root of it all is the hive mind, which implies that it is a single creature, or to me it does.
I haven't had a chance to look at the new nid dex, nor did I actually read the fluff in the last ed.

The Hive Mind is the collective conciousness of the entire Tyranid race, a psychic 'entity' made up of the collective minds of the entire race. This is why the Tyranids always seem to work in perfect harmony, even across hive fleets - what one Tyranid knows, all Tyranids know. Synapse creatures are the focal points, which have a slight degree of self awareness, guide the swarm based on that collective knowledge. The higher up the chain of synapse creatures, the more self awareness they have. Hive Tyrants are near the top, with only Dominatrices, Norn Queens and the Swarmlord above them. There is no one leader, with the possible exception of the Swarmlord, but he is only spawned when the Tyranids just can't win, it's not a permanant part of a hive fleet.

The newest codex says on this

The Hive Mind holds all Tyranid Creatures in a psychic bond that enables them to act together as one gestalt organism. It is a single coordinating sentience formed from untold billions of individual consciences, each of which is a Tyranid.

The concept of the Hive Mind is a confusing one to me. If it's a singular conscience made up of untold billions, who gets to decide what to do? It kinda makes more sense to have the Hive Mind as a singular 'creature' rather than having it as being made up as it is. I guess the whole concept of it is as it should be, alien and impossible to fathom