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AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:here lets play a game. you find 1 ard boyz finalist csm list that runs lesser demons, I'll find 2 that don't. fair?

What would the point be?

to have an experiment? to test an assertion of fact? more ard boyz players arent using them then are. ipso facto they suck

I'm going to let that stand as a testament as to the quality of your opinion on the subject.

Monster Rain wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:here lets play a game. you find 1 ard boyz finalist csm list that runs lesser demons, I'll find 2 that don't. fair?

What would the point be?

You can compete at that level using SLD, ipso facto they aren't terrible if they are part of your strategy. Not really a hard concept.

/thread

It's still a shame when somebody crosses that fine line between crank and troll.

Don't I know it.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Since lesser daemons have been used successfully by a variety of players and even on a tournament level, at this stage, the argument to use lesser daemons over a naked CSM team has more weight.

here lets play a game. you find 1 ard boyz finalist csm list that runs lesser demons, I'll find 2 that don't. fair?

Speaking of ard boyz, the two CSM lists which did best at the PA final this year both used LDs. Including the winner. He was the only person who beat me in that final, and I brought them too.

I also placed top ten at last year's AB final, of 60+ people, using LDs.

It's been kind of useful for you to keep arguing, because it's given folks impetus to explain how LDs actually do work and are genuinely good. But your position is beginning to look more like a Devil's Advocate.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
if deep striking created a unique set of capabilities for the demons I would go for that. but since they have to come off of the icon it really doesnt. the only thing they can do that you cant do with a squad of csm is charge somebody directly out of reserves. however you usually wont be ready for this on turn 2, and they have a 1/2 chance to come in by then. when they do they're exposed and their primary advantage is wasted. the randomness of this ability + the lack luster nature of their attacks means that this ability, while interesting, just doesnt stack up.

I think you're dismissing the "charge directly out of reserves" ability too quickly, AF. The icon puts them 100% for sure into combat with any unit that's within 12" on that turn (barring terrain, which you can usually compensate for since you know exactly where everything is going). If they're coming in off an icon in a transport, that means you know you can get a combined charge from all the arriving daemon squads, plus the guys in the transport out to 12" from the hull--and you don't have to make that decision until the daemons actually arrive. It's like getting multiple units into one transport, where they're needed, on-demand.

well ok..... maybe I am. these are the reasons that I think it wont work very well. let's discuss them...? if the demons show up without anything in charge radius, you lose most of the benefit of their special ability. since the reserve table means they'll show up 1/2 the time by turn 2, and you usually wont be in position for the charge by turn 2, then there's a 50% chance they'll whiff their initial attack, right? I think thats a significant disadvantage. but when they do get the charge they arent all that fierce. 3 str 4 init 4 ws 4 str 4 attacks a piece. so each attack has a 8% chance (roughly) of killing an meq. you cant really multiply the percentages and say 8% x3 = 24% because each roll is a seperate event and has to be treated seperately, but if you could your odds would still be only about 1/4 per demon. thats not very good is it? but what if they have to go against a really good assault unit like terminators or thunderwolves? they're going to bounce off those guys and then take mega no-retreat wounds. the whole squad will probably evaporate by the beginning of their next turn. that isnt very good is it?

And--I've been making this argument for 10 years--the invulnerable saves make them complimentary to power-armored marines in assault. With careful base placement and your ability to precisely coordinate assaults, you can have the power-weapon IC fighting the invulnerable-save daemons while your power-armored guys max out casualties on the grunts. Or carry one or two daemons out to fight the big bug while the rest of your daemons and CSM score combat-res wounds on the little bugs for massive no-retreat damage.

well the 5++ is better than nothing but its not exactly *good* against a big bug or a dreadnought is it? you're still dying most of the time. not as much as tacticals granted but you're still not exactly safe. why not have terminators doing this work instead? with the icon of tzeentch they have a 4++, their armor is better, and they have some really wicked close combat options.

Thanks everybody! I definately feel as if I should pick these guys up now. That along with some plague marines and a rhino. That should compliment everything fairly well right? Maybe something like:

2 Princes- Nurgle, wings, warptime 350
2x7 Plague Marines- champ, fist, icon, 2 meltas 452
8 Lesser Daemons 104
2 Rhinos 70
3 Obliterators 225
1 Defiler 2 DCCW 150
1 Vindicator- Daemonic Possession, TL Bolter 150

So does this seem like ample support for my daemons? and would they work well? Thanks again!

Mannahnin wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Since lesser daemons have been used successfully by a variety of players and even on a tournament level, at this stage, the argument to use lesser daemons over a naked CSM team has more weight.

here lets play a game. you find 1 ard boyz finalist csm list that runs lesser demons, I'll find 2 that don't. fair?

Speaking of ard boyz, the two CSM lists which did best at the PA final this year both used LDs. Including the winner. He was the only person who beat me in that final, and I brought them too.

I also placed top ten at last year's AB final, of 60+ people, using LDs.

It's been kind of useful for you to keep arguing, because it's given folks impetus to explain how LDs actually do work and are genuinely good. But your position is beginning to look more like a Devil's Advocate.

I'm just advocating for my opinions. some people will find them convincing. others wont.
I offered to do the experiment. I think it will bear out what I'm saying. If you all are so confident why dont you acccept? I agree that ard boyz finalists probably know what they're doing. if we find more of them using summoned lesser demons than not then I'll own up to that and reevaluate my opinion. if we find out the opposite, will you all? (not that truth is a democracy or anything but w/e. there has to be some kind of objective standard right?)

It's a bogus experiment. You claim that lesser demons are terrible. We say they can be good in certain roles. We only need to show that they can be used successfully at a high level to help prove our point.

You're view is disproved if any players use them. It doesn't matter if 5% or 90% of chaos players used them. If any do, and are successful, they're clearly not as bad as you claim.

rodt777 wrote:Thanks everybody! I definately feel as if I should pick these guys up now. That along with some plague marines and a rhino. That should compliment everything fairly well right? Maybe something like:

2 Princes- Nurgle, wings, warptime 350
2x7 Plague Marines- champ, fist, icon, 2 meltas 452
8 Lesser Daemons 104
2 Rhinos 70
3 Obliterators 225
1 Defiler 2 DCCW 150
1 Vindicator- Daemonic Possession, TL Bolter 150

So does this seem like ample support for my daemons? and would they work well? Thanks again!

If you're going to do it, I'd say find room for icons on the Princes maybe by dropping a LD. And Daemonic Possession is so expensive...

hell put a personal icon on everything if you're going to do it. that way you have maximum flexibility. def. drop demonic possession. the vindicator is going to get shot and its going to die. dont invest too much in it.

Actually, drop the Plague Champions and the Vindicator altogether and put in 3 more obliterators.



That'll take some heat off of your Daemons!

Polonius wrote:It's a bogus experiment. You claim that lesser demons are terrible. We say they can be good in certain roles. We only need to show that they can be used successfully at a high level to help prove our point.

You're view is disproved if any players use them. It doesn't matter if 5% or 90% of chaos players used them. If any do, and are successful, they're clearly not as bad as you claim.

more ard boyz finalists agree with me than with you all. if you accept that they probably know what they're doing then it follows that I'm more probably right than you all are. one or two flukes doesnt prove anything. right now some one, somewhere, is driving screws with a hammer. and its working. doesnt mean its a good idea for you to try it next time you need to screw something in. anyway I think its cute that if 1 out of 100 ard boyz finalists agrees with you then it proves you right, but if the other 99 agree with me it proves nothing. nice

Well, nobody with an elementary grasp on logic agrees with you, so I've got that going for me.

You have to keep in mind what you're asserting, what your evidence is, and how they connect.

The fact that most players don't use them does indeed prove something: it proves that for most players, there are better options available than lesser demons. Which would be great, if that was in any way your argument.

How can I put an icon on the princes? I dont see the option. And I've been considering dropping the vindi for awhile now. Problem is $$. So as long as I keep it i figured i might as well use it to the best of its ability. I want it to shoot, so adding DP greatly increases the odds of that happening. With the plague champ, I use it as another anti-tank method. I, again, am not the richest man ever, and the fist has worked alright so far. So I think ill keep it for now, thanks for the idea though. And what are some better options for a similar role?

I'm done.

Considering the guy that won the finals in PA used them, why would it matter what everyone who didn't win had in their lists?

The guy who won used LDs. The majority of Ard Boyz players didn't win the finals.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:except for one thing.

SHOUTING PROVES EVERYTHING, RIGHT MONSTER?

BLAME THE VICTIM!

I still love ya, AF, even though you make me crazy.

I guess only dcms get to write in super big fonts. sigh. might be reason enough to give dakka few bucks.....

no hard feelings. you big bully.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:I guess only dcms get to write in super big fonts. sigh. might be reason enough to give dakka few bucks.....

Put the color brackets inside of the size brackets... or vice versa... I'm pretty sure it works for everyone.

Why I'm encouraging you to do it is another question entirely.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I CAN ONLY WRITE THIS BIG


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yep. there it goes.

@Rodt777
Princes can't take icons which is one of the flaws of the current dex. If only GW could errata that, I’d be a happy man.

The strategy of lesser daemons coming from reserve as a support unit works best with a greater abundance of icons/rhino mounted squads in the list. Your list will work best at 1750 points with the inclusion of your berserker unit in a rhino supporting your army.

candy.man wrote:@Rodt777
Princes can't take icons which is one of the flaws of the current dex. If only GW could errata that, I’d be a happy man.

You're absolutely right.



I could have sworn that you could. Oh well. I am wrong, occasionally.

no. never....

I still cling to the agree side of this thread.
Their the least expensive unit in the codex. Which in my book means cheap. but thats just me. =p

Dropping a small unit of them into terrain on an objective is the ideal way here. Not to mention assaulting after deepstriking can be nice in a pinch.
Having 7 daemons in cover in the back of your deployment zone is just something shooting armies have to deal with. Most guard lists cant send the resources
to get that objective back with the rest of your armies applying pressure to their lines (Unless yer doin it wrong laddie)

Point being some armies cant deal with your rhino rush AND uproot lesser daemons off of objectives.

@rodt

Your list is fine overall, I would probably drop the Defiler and an Obliterator for a Third Plague Marine unit. Garner a little more firepower and maintain a large amount of bad assery. Now, a lot of people will say you need more than one Vindicator or Defiler, you could try it as is for now; however, you'll find these big hitters work better in pairs. I'd say you're off to a good start.

Monster Rain wrote:Considering the guy that won the finals in PA used them, why would it matter what everyone who didn't win had in their lists?

The guy who won used LDs. The majority of Ard Boyz players didn't win the finals.

The majority of ard boys finalists don't use sld, except for the guy that came in 1st place.

Sld are one of those units that suck on paper, but once they hit the table they are as good as the player using them. Bad players will get bad results and might give up on sld, or they might keep them because they know they are a bad player and its not ecactlly the fault of sld that they lost. Mediocre players will get mediocre results and rapidly give up on sld and will stick with easy to use units. Great players will get great results.

Anytime you see sld at a tournament the chaos player is either really bad or a serious contender

That's the beauty.
The threat-o-meter is on the fritz and the opponent doesn't know if they need to over-commit or not...while 'when' they commit is a mystery to both players .

AbaddonFidelis wrote:they're 13 points each. they aren't cheap. guardsmen are cheap. are you all on crack? just pay the extra 2 points for a marine.

i dont think you really have much of a point. using LDs is not the same as taking class A drugs, and we cant take guardsmen (they took cultists away)

Marines are Good, but they can't teleport, and don't say about running because so can daemons.
Icons are worth having anyway.
You say anybody can have a cover save, this is true, yet you still bang on about the 3+ armour save.
Admittedly, sometimes they are a little stranded on turn 2 (rarely as i play aggressively) and have to resort to hiding

I love chaos marines, they are incredibly flexible and reliable, but as i used to use word bearers (when the daemon were all different) i still use 2 units of 6 LDs, and they are often the unit that wins the game, they also help out unit that i need them to.
I have tried using lots of them (over 20 in 1500pts) but not brilliant like this, better in support, sticking to 2 units is perfect

My OPINION: In my experience, Lesser daemons are worth using as supporting units, 6-8 per 1000points.