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I run a mech chaos list with reasonable success. It had 2 Nurgle Warptime Princes, a termicide unit, 2x8 Berzerkers w/ a fist in each, 2 Rhinos for <-, 3 oblits, defiler, and a vindicator w/ daemonic possession. This all came to 1501. I was looking into lesser daemons today while at the shop and wondered if lesser daemons would be worth including. They seem nice, problem is idk where to find the points. So would they be worth buying? why or why not? Also, I am considering buying some plague marines in place of the berzerkers. Thank you, Rod!

Not in your list, no. Lessers are great for hammer and anvil tactics, especially when using a shootier CSM style (run up, rapid fire, accept the charge then use Deepstriking Lessers to turn the tide). You've got Berserkers, which need to get the charge and can't hang out in a protracted combat. Now if you were to switch to Plague Marines, they'd be ideal, but I don't know where you'd get the points for them both.

I don't understand how adding daemons would make combat any longer for the berzerkers? And is it a reasonable idea to drop the termies in exchange for more daemons and plague marines?

I don't believe I implied adding Lessers would make combat take longer. I implied that Lessers work well with units that like longer combats, like CSM, Plague Marines and Possessed. Berserkers do not like longer combats, and would not work well with Lesser Daemons.

I think you need the Meltaguns from the Termicide, but I don't like your Obliterators.

Darkhound is explaining that the Berzerkers can't spend time in combat locking down a unit for a horde of Lesser Daemons to come in from reserves and help destroy it. Lesser Daemons combine better with Plague Marines and regular Chaos Space Marines because they can sit back, and be the anvil for the Lesser Daemon's hammer.

However, given that Khorne Berzerkers are best at murdering stuff in close combat, Lesser Daemons can supply some cheap Objective campers so that the Berzerkers don't end up chained to an objective.

Something worth mentioning is that there is no Lesser Daemon model, although you can use the plastic Daemonette, Bloodletter, or Horror kits (and the metal Plaguebearers). I find WFB Zombies come in the right quantities for Lesser Daemon models, but some people make their own custom models (Dryads are good ones), and Beastmen might work.

rodt777 wrote:I run a mech chaos list with reasonable success. It had 2 Nurgle Warptime Princes, a termicide unit, 2x8 Berzerkers w/ a fist in each, 2 Rhinos for <-, 3 oblits, defiler, and a vindicator w/ daemonic possession. This all came to 1501. I was looking into lesser daemons today while at the shop and wondered if lesser daemons would be worth including. They seem nice, problem is idk where to find the points. So would they be worth buying? why or why not? Also, I am considering buying some plague marines in place of the berzerkers. Thank you, Rod!

no. they are not worth playing. or buying. unless you want to run legit demons out of the demons codex. here's why.
1. "they're only 13 points, they're cheap objective holders" this is the most common argument advanced for this unit, and its completely silly. first of all they arent cheap. they're just the least expensive thing in an expensive code. guardsmen are about 4 points a piece. they're cheap. ork boyz are 6 points a piece. they're cheap. 13 points a piece isnt cheap
2. and even if it was, you dont want to run armies with alot of extra fat in them. there are no specialized objective holders, there is no room for guys who arent hard core killers, there is no room for guys who are just ok. these are myths that noobs believe and that experienced players reject out of hand. everyone needs to be killing like crazy all the fething time. that is the only way to play this game competitively.
3. what are lesser demons good at? not much. they dont have power weapons, they dont have very many attacks, they dont have shooting attacks, they arent any more mobile than the nearest icon, and that icon usually isnt going to move more than 12 inches a turn, unless you take another horrible chaos unit - bikers. basically lesser demons suck at life. if you could control when they showed up their assault out of the warp ability might be useful. but you have no control at all over when they show so they'll almost always find a way to show up either too early or too late. not that they can do a whole lot once they get there. because they're fearless if they lose the combat (and they will) they take no retreat wounds and have only 5+ invulnerable saves against those.
4. for just 2 more points a lesser demon could have been a marine, who comes with a bolter and 3+ armor. the 5+ invulnerable is nice but in a game where everyone can get 4+ cover just by hiding behind a rock it's questionable just how good it is, or whether its even worth paying for. besides that marines get a ton of good weapon options.
5. as a chaos player your troops section is one of the strongest parts of your codex. plague marines and zerkers are both great troop choices, and plague marines are a hell of alot better at holding objectives than lesser demons. they're more expensive yes but you ge what you pay for.

so to recap
1. they're not cheap
2. good lists do not run units that do nothing but hold objectives - they run units that kill things.
3. they arent good at anything.
4. they could have been marines
5. you already have great objective holders in that book.

so no do not use lesser demons. ever. they are junk.
AF

Mannahnin manages to use them with a great deal of success, and he's widely renowned as a pretty good player.

He'd be able to explain it better than I could though...

They are not junk, they are just difficult to use.

A huge chunk of their cost is the ability to assault after a scatter free deep strike.

Lesser deamons are ghetto vanguard vets that don't scatter.

There are other tactics besides hammer anvil. They are also good for hammer hammer. Deamons+zerkers is a good example. 10 deamons add some more octane to a zerkers punch against nasty units, especially those with wound allocation issues. The deamons hit on a different iniative, which can be a good.

The thing to remember is a huge chunk of the sld price is the ability to assault in the turn they are summoned.

All of that being said I hate sld for fluff reasons, and miss having specific deamons available.

half the time they show up on turn 2, which is too early, and their free assault is wasted. even if they do get the assault though, so what? they're garbage in close combat. do they have alot of attacks? no not really. do they have power weapons? no. rending? no. high initiative? no. poisoned? no. maybe a nifty special rule? nope. is there anything good about them in close combat? no. not really. they're going to bounce off of anything heavier than guardsmen, and when they lose no retreat means they lose big. they suck for game and for fluff reasons.

Absolutely.
They're Cheap ( for chaos ) , they're MEQ's (aside the save and more attacks ) , and they come in where you want.
Buying icons for these guys is the worst it gets . which isnt saying much.
Having a unit come in without scattering. walking onto on objective. and going to ground for the rest of the game
Perfect. Have fun shooting them off. and with the rest of your army running about they should go the game on that objective.

Also can be doubled as a instant assault unit against soft targets IE: Tau , guard , orks

they dont have more attacks than csm. and the 3+ save is what makes a meq. if they go to ground they arent any harder to kill with light weapons than normal marines. chaos marines dont need the help vs tau guard orks etc. for a few more points you could have had legit marines in there killing stuff. I basically disagree with all of this.

5 sld are 65 points, and you're most likely buying icons for your CSM anyway.

It's a pretty good deal for something that can hold an objective, that's fearless with an Invulnerable Save. And if the other, say, 1935 points of your army is brutal enough, your opponent will have plenty to keep them busy.

abaddonfidelis wrote:
1. "they're only 13 points, they're cheap objective holders" this is the most common argument advanced for this unit, and its completely silly. first of all they arent cheap. they're just the least expensive thing in an expensive code. guardsmen are about 4 points a piece. they're cheap. ork boyz are 6 points a piece. they're cheap. 13 points a piece isnt cheap

5. as a chaos player your troops section is one of the strongest parts of your codex. plague marines and zerkers are both great troop choices, and plague marines are a hell of alot better at holding objectives than lesser demons. they're more expensive yes but you ge what you pay for.

So, 65 points is expensive for a fearless scoring squad with an invul?

That's patently silly.

They're significantly cheaper than the other options you listed.

for a unit with 5 guys? who have no shooting attacks and are garbage in close combat? yeah 65 points is expensive for that. who cares about a 5+ invuln when any guy can get a 4++ by hiding behind a rock? and fearless doesnt help them when they get their ass kicked in close combat, which they will, because it just means they take no retreat wounds. all this has already been said.

I run a mechanized Nurgle list that consists of the following:

H.Q.

Daemon Prince
Wings, Warptime, Mark of Nurlge -175

Daemon Prince
Wings, Warptime, Mark of Nurlge -175

Troops

Plague marines 7x
Champion with Power Fist, 2x Melta, Rhino, Icon -261

Plague marines 7x
Champion with Power Fist, 2x Melta, Rhino, Icon -261

Plague marines 7x
Champion with Power Fist, 2x Plasma, Rhino, Icon -271

Lesser Daemons 5x -65

Heavy Support

Vindicator
Daemonic Possession -145

Vindicator
Daemonic Possession -145

Total: 1498

Those 5 Lesser Daemons have been amazing for me, especially in Seize Ground missions. Same statline as a Marine with the exception of Save...not biggy, just place your objective in cover and let them go to ground. They now have a 3+ cover save and are fearless. You have only 1 use for them and that is far objective possession. You don't bring them down in the thick of a firefight, they'll just die. You don't use the in assault unless it is in desperation. They have only the objective to be concerned about. Also, with the lower profile of the models (they're generally less bulky compared to Space Marines), you can keep them safer from shooting. If they get assaulted, that's probably because my opponent is running away from the rest of my army and I'm happy anyway. If they come in late, I don't really care because they'll end up where I need them to be with the Icons floating around. Fearless troops that people write off are what makes me love Daemons. If you focus fire on my Daemons it is either because you don't know what you're doing or you've already wiped the rest of the army...in either case, they've done their job.

As TL, MR, and the Martyr have said, 65pts is darn cheap for a fearless scoring unit. They can go to ground in cover for a 3+ save against shooting, and don't take morale tests. I had two of these units in the 1000pt 5rd tournament I won recently, and the ability of these units to hold objectives while my more expensive stuff did the main fighting was key in that.

Many non-scoring units can carry Icons, which allow you to put a scoring unit of LDs where only a non-scoring one was, mid-game. I've used this to capture objectives near my Havocs in more games then I can count, while my expensive CSM, Plague, or Berserker units move forward to attack and capture enemy objectives.

As Shadenfreude said, they can also be used to support other units in assault, though you'll want at least 8-10 for this. They are not "garbage" in assault; they hit just as hard as a CSM; their flaw is their poor save against regular attacks, but they're more durable than a CSM or Berserker against power weapons or fists. If you set up your assault right, the daemons can often isolate an enemy power fist to keep it off your more expensive power-armored guys. They can also tie down dreadnoughts and some monstrous creatures.

Having several icons across your force allows lesser daemons to appear where they're most needed/best used at any given time. Thus giving you instant reinforcements and the effect of greater numbers than you have, because some of those numbers appear where it turns out that you need them.

If you could hold off summoning them, they'd be better, of course. Turn 2 is frequently too early, though if it is too early, that generally means that your opponent has ceded control of the center of the table to you, and you have him on the defensive.

Everything Mannahnin just said: +1. I like 8-10 because I use them in the aforementioned Hammer and Anvil, and I know Sanctjud sometimes uses blobs of 20.

An army with Lesser Daemons benefits from being mutable. Units, especially fast ones, that can work alone take best advantage of Lesser's deployment. For example, when my Possessed roll Scout, they are durable enough (at 1500-1750 points) to be a threat on their own, but with the Lessers still in reserve my opponent needs to take special precautions. Does he focus down the Possessed before they can summon reinforcements in his flank, or does he worry about the rest of the army? Bikers are the most blunt approach to this concept, but one can do cunning things with Chosen, Possessed and Raptors.

I also need to bring up a rule that drastically mitigates their lower save: "Models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) must attack that unit." (pg 41) If you choose your combats right, the Lessers can't be killed to force No Retreat! wounds. Lessers work well with units who like protracted slug fests, but they aren't good at slug fests themselves. They exist to end combats other units have started.

Mannahnin wrote:As TL, MR, and the Martyr have said, 65pts is darn cheap for a fearless scoring unit.

safety in numbers

They can go to ground in cover for a 3+ save against shooting

anyone can do that

, and don't take morale tests.

which is why they get wiped extra hard in close combat. they take casualties when they lose. which they will.

I had two of these units in the 1000pt 5rd tournament I won recently, and the ability of these units to hold objectives while my more expensive stuff did the main fighting was key in that.

just get guys who kill and hold objectives. its not too much to ask in that book.

Many non-scoring units can carry Icons, which allow you to put a scoring unit of LDs where only a non-scoring one was, mid-game. I've used this to capture objectives near my Havocs in more games then I can count, while my expensive CSM, Plague, or Berserker units move forward to attack and capture enemy objectives.

just send your depleted units back to the rear to hold objectives, starting mid game. gets the same job done and its free.

As Shadenfreude said, they can also be used to support other units in assault, though you'll want at least 8-10 for this.

sure. you could support your units with something good. or with something bad. its all about personal play style I guess.

They are not "garbage" in assault;

do they have alot of attacks? no. power weapons? no. rending? no. poisoned attacks? no. extra weapon skill? no. extra strength? no. anything? no not really. I think you're setting the bar pretty low for your assault units.

they hit just as hard as a CSM;

which isnt hard at all

their flaw is

that people keep trying to find a reason to bring them

their poor save against regular attacks

or any kind of attack really

, but they're more durable than a CSM or Berserker against power weapons or fists.

the greater offensive potential of a csm or a berserker makes both of them more durable than the lesser demon. you dont have to take saves if you kill the thing thats swinging at you. the csm or zerker is more likely than the lesser demon to do that, and is hence more durable.

If you set up your assault right, the daemons can often isolate an enemy power fist to keep it off your more expensive power-armored guys. They can also tie down dreadnoughts and some monstrous creatures.

their randomness means that your plans might not mean a whole lot when you bring them. they're not going to tie down a dreadnought. they're going to take 1 or 2 casualties from the dread in every phase, do no wounds back, then take 1 or 2 more from no retreat. repeat twice per game turn. is this really an acceptable result for you?

Having several icons across your force allows lesser daemons to appear where they're most needed/best used at any given time. Thus giving you instant reinforcements and the effect of greater numbers than you have, because some of those numbers appear where it turns out that you need them.

no thats the whole problem. they dont show up when they're most needed. they show up when the dice decide they'll show up. its completely random. I'll give you that their location is flexible, if you decide to invest in icons. depending on how flexible you want them to be and what icons you take they might not be so cheap anymore. but cheap or expensive they're still going to suck when they show up.

If you could hold off summoning them, they'd be better, of course. Turn 2 is frequently too early, though if it is too early, that generally means that your opponent has ceded control of the center of the table to you, and you have him on the defensive.

if he's running a shooty army why should he care about the center?
if he's fighting you over the center how likely is it that he's attacking you with stuff that lesser demons can whip? when I take the center of the board I'm usually trying to wipe them out with flame throwers or hard core assault units. both of which will make short work of lesser demons.




I dont know what it is about this topic that irritates me. but it just does. they're an obviously bad unit but people still want to find a way to include them. don't. they're garbage. there's no mystery, and you don't get bonus points for playing bad units.
AF

I dont know what it is about this topic that irritates me. but it just does.

Then don't post.

People have detaiiled how they work well for them. They may not work well for you... (assuming you have used them extensively to have that strong of a negative opinion)...but it's pretty hard to poo poo on other people's positive experiences with them.
______________________________________

In other news:
I've enjoyed using a full squad of 20.
Comparitively cheap/on par in cost to my other troop choices, and scares the crap out of my opponents (even when meched up as they know they 'have' to deal with it and 'waste' shooting); the most important feature is that the 20 man squad makes it to the 4th ring...that extra inch makes more charges at turn 2 than I can recall missing.

but it's pretty hard to poo poo on other people's positive experiences with them.

you might be surprised, actually.... just how easy it is.
a few people had 1 or 2 games in which they werent total garbage, and on the strength of those games ignored the other 10 in which they were. they suck. really.

I have seen them used effectively with a rhino-berzerker themed army. Berzerkers like landraider delivery so you can move, disembark and assault. That however gets costly so the use of cheap rhinos works. The problem here is that the berzerkers dismount and have to wait a turn to execute the charge. This is where lesser and greater demons can help out. Not necessarily to win a combat but to cover for their berzerker brother for a turn.

Of couse this is a tad risky as you have to time them with your rhino rush so there is a dependency on reserve rolls.

Yes there are more dependable builds but this is fun and not always the most conventional so it can surprise opponents.

@AF:
Really? 2 games should dictate whether or not a unit is garbage...

Everything in 40K can and will fail.
__________________________________________

@
DAaddict:
You don't have to do it that way.
Zerkers CAN charge out of an umoved Rhino. The threat distance is NOT 12", but 16" when you factor in disembarkment; it makes a big difference.

Other things Lesser Daemons open the door for: Blocking Line of Sight.

Yesterday, I was playtesting against an I.G. Hybrid list that had 2 fairly large blobs and a smattering of Heavy Weapons Teams. I got my Daemons in Turn 2 which was the worst possible time; however, I dropped them in near the blobs and was able to assault both blobs at once. My Daemons barely won combat by 2-3 wounds and the Blobs stuck around. In the Imperial Guard turn, he realized half of his shooting was either tied up or couldn't see allowing the rest of the army to steam roll in with not that much harassment.

They're sacrificial units at best but they go places you usually can't get to and do things you normally are unable to do because of their Deep Strike and assault abilities. I guess the big thing is people don't look at the little picture enough to realize the benefits of small tactical decisions.

14 inches. 2 + 12

Actually, more accurately it's:

12" + 2" +1" for 15".

I was an inch off cause I had though disembarkment was 3 instead of 2 for some reason.
I'm sure you can find out what where that 1" comes from.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

but it's pretty hard to poo poo on other people's positive experiences with them.

you might be surprised, actually.... just how easy it is.
a few people had 1 or 2 games in which they werent total garbage, and on the strength of those games ignored the other 10 in which they were. they suck. really.

Now you're just making things up.

Anyway, the thing you're not going to be able to obfuscate is that SLD are 65 points, fearless, scoring and since you're not going to need to do anything with them other than go to ground they are for all intents and purposes MEQs.

I know, I know, "Hurr, 65 points is only cheap for the CSM codex" but that's a pointless argument since we're talking about the CSM codex, and the relative cheapness compared to other codexes is entirely irrelevant. They're cheaper than any other CSM troop options, let alone the more fancy fearless ones.

Yes. They are very good. They aren't good for everyone or in every list. They work well in my Death Guard list.

They can:

1. Add cheap bodies (sure CSM are 2 points more...plus a rhino, plus 2 specials, plus and icon, plus a champ with fist)
2. Can assault when they come in
3. Cheaply hold an objective so my expensive PM's can move forward
4. Tarpit
5. Slow don't things that rock my Plague Marines because they ignore armor.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

but it's pretty hard to poo poo on other people's positive experiences with them.

you might be surprised, actually.... just how easy it is.
a few people had 1 or 2 games in which they werent total garbage, and on the strength of those games ignored the other 10 in which they were. they suck. really.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

I've had a few games where the LDs failed or didn't do anything useful. But far more where they held one or more objectives, or assaulted to good effect. Your mileage obviously varies.

The cheap cost is a big deal. Any unit of CSMs you field, as JGrand said, is going to be upgraded into a far more than 2pt/model difference in cost. Nevermind cult marines.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

I've had a few games where the LDs failed or didn't do anything useful. But far more where they held one or more objectives, or assaulted to good effect. Your mileage obviously varies.

I always seem to find a use for them. They might not be "ZOMG WORLD BEATERS" but they are excellent role players. At 1500 I run:

2 Daemon Princes of Nurgle with Warptime
2 7 man Plague Marines squads in Rhinos- 1 2x Melta, 1 2x Plasma, both with Champs with fists
1 Daemonically Possessed Vindicator
1 Predator 1 Autocannon, 2x Lascannon
2 Oblits
13 Lesser Daemons

The Plague Marine squads along with the Princes are the heavy hitters. In multiple objective games, the idea of leaving back one of my expensive squads to babysit is usually a waste. So, I employ lesser daemons; especially when they come in early. If I am in a situation where I am hanging back and the opponent is coming to me, they have been an amazing reinforcement and counter charge. They charge the turn they come in, and usually the opponent is closing in on the PM's. Finally, I can throw them at a heavy hitter and slow that unit down while killing off a few guys. An Incubi or Nob unit will tear up Plague Marines. They are slowed by lesser daemons. This can be a huge help. Hell, I've had them assault and overrun Ghaz! They are useful enough when used in the right situations.

Finally, they add bodies which I sorely need.

The cheap cost is a big deal. Any unit of CSMs you field, as JGrand said, is going to be upgraded into a far more than 2pt/model difference in cost. Nevermind cult marines.

People who want to compare 10 CSM for 150 points to 12 Lesser Daemons for 156 are crazy. Hands down.
1. They fill completely different roles.
2. Who takes 10 base CSM?

It's a horrible logical fallacy. Now, if you want to add in the 2x melta guns, IoCG, Champ with fist and a Rhino for a total of 255 it doesn't look so clear cut...