Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Brother Heinrich wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Leman Russ pushed over a Titan during the Heresy

lol, i rest my case, there's no arguing with that kind of logic.

Your case was that something had changed recently in regards to Space Wolf and/or Primarch background material. That case was blown out of the water since the original stories about Primarchs were just as ludicrous.

Jayden63 wrote:

Footsloggin wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:

battle Brother Lucifer wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:Haters gonna hate.

I personally love everything about the SW book. I love the fluff, I love the list choices (still not as cheesy unbalanced as IG or BA).

You don't have to spam long fangs/rune priests etc. and still be competitive. This codex reminds me of the old Chaos 3.5. Not in power level, but in the ability to do many different things and do it well.

If all you see are the same SW lists, maybe its time to get some new friends. After all there is only 2 IG lists (leaf blower and vendetta spam). There is only 1 Tau list, there is only 3 SM lists Vulcan, Pedro, or biker.

So in reality, if all your ever playing against the same damn thing, that should be second nature by now.

Thunder Wolf Calvary, 4 Hq's, and Jaws of The World Wolf beg to differ. >:[

TWC is just awesome sauce in a silver bowl. Good thing you can only take 3 units of them. Deamons can take 4 HQs as well, and JOTWW will do absolutely nothing against some armies (All mechanized, or all jump pack, etc.).

Again, if all your seeing is the super hard stuff, then maybe you need to find different people to play with. I know there are other SW generals out there like me who only have one RP, don't bother with an enemy list dependant psychic power, only take 1 HQ, and not a long fang or TWC on the table.

And I'll still give you the most competitive game you've had all week.

Yes, but for armies that can take limited mech, if any, *Points at my Tyranids*, their units best me on nigh every front. They are better at Shooting,generally most armies are, I'll give them that. BUT, they can down my MCs with a unit of re-rolling to hit and wound units, great. They kill my gribblies in cc. Why? We're in cover, and crush your units before they assault/do any damage!!! One Squad of Long Fangs? Say BYE to ANY MCs on the board. JotWW? Gives up... /rant...

Sounds more like failure of the Nid codex than anything SW had to do with it. Nids did come out after SW, so they knew how JOTWW worked, but decided to give Nids crappy anti-psyker and low Init. anyway. Blame the reworking of cover and HTH as to why your Gribblies suck against units with grenades. Trust me, my Kroot effin hate it. If 5 Missile launchers can drop your MCs, then 4 Miissile Launchers from any other marine devi squad (including chaos) should have just as solid of an impact.

Nid problems are more of an issue with the Nid codex than anything SW can bring to the table.

Yes, 'Nids do have a problem with their own codex, but the simple fact of the matter is, I have little problem against other forces, heck, I've beaten mech guard with some decent all-comers list. But, no matter how much I tailor my force, one way or another, the SW WILL beat me, it matters little who the commander is, as three of my friends played the relatively same list of SW and beat me all three times. And to boot, the fact that should a MC go down to two wounds, the Long Fangs just split fire. Let's make devastators with PotMS-Lite! In addition, they seem to be more numerous than standard marines, and their elite units counter anything short of the swarmlord, which their SCs make short work of anyway... I myself have only seen the codex to verify special rules. How much more/less expensive are their upgrades/units over standard marines>

And while I'm inclined to agree that the gribblies NEED frag grenades, I just feel as if Space Wolves are a Harder-than-hard counter for my 'Nids...

Footsloggin wrote:

<snip a whole bunch of stuff>

Yes, 'Nids do have a problem with their own codex, but the simple fact of the matter is, I have little problem against other forces, heck, I've beaten mech guard with some decent all-comers list. But, no matter how much I tailor my force, one way or another, the SW WILL beat me, it matters little who the commander is, as three of my friends played the relatively same list of SW and beat me all three times. And to boot, the fact that should a MC go down to two wounds, the Long Fangs just split fire. Let's make devastators with PotMS-Lite! In addition, they seem to be more numerous than standard marines, and their elite units counter anything short of the swarmlord, which their SCs make short work of anyway... I myself have only seen the codex to verify special rules. How much more/less expensive are their upgrades/units over standard marines>

And while I'm inclined to agree that the gribblies NEED frag grenades, I just feel as if Space Wolves are a Harder-than-hard counter for my 'Nids...

Well, maybe you should ask your three friends to play different SW lists. If all three are toting TWCs, JOTWW, and LF x3 then yeah, probably doesn't matter who the general is because your still fighting an uphill battle.

Do any of them run termis, bloodclaws, skyclaws, speeders, scouts, etc. All of which I mentioned can make a very strong army but totally play differently. Your nids might still loose (for whatever reason), but at least the game will be different.

As for upgrades they are actually more expensive than other SM codexs. Our THs and SS are stupidly expensive when considering same models. Our basic bikers cost about the same, but have weaker stats. Putting bikes on Wolf Guard so that they are at least decent is stupidly points heavy. We dont even get Ironclads/sternguard/locater beacons/ and our Venerables cost an arm and a leg.

The only real advantage is that our basic marine in PA is 15 points. Doesn't matter if its Blood Claw, Long Fang, or Grey Hunter. The basic Wolf Guard is 18 points. So on that front, yeah we are a little cheaper on the per man issue, and yeah it adds up over 40 guys or so. But all of our SCs and special characters are about 25-50 points or so more than other comparable codexs characters. So it really does come out as a wash. You will never be out numbered by Vanilla SM and even if your opponent avoided the stupid expensive stuff, you will never be outnumbered by SW either.

Ohh and all SMs devi squads can also do split fire. Its called combat squadding. It just means taking more guys as bullet catchers. Those four missile launchers will still be firing after a LF squad has been wiped out.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Brother Heinrich wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Leman Russ pushed over a Titan during the Heresy

lol, i rest my case, there's no arguing with that kind of logic.

Your case was that something had changed recently in regards to Space Wolf and/or Primarch background material. That case was blown out of the water since the original stories about Primarchs were just as ludicrous.

then by all means, lets see the direct reference

We just wanted to test the SWs effectivity vs. my 'nids, the six of us played the same two armies against one another under varying scenarios, we do this when most races come out, in this case being the 'Nids codex.... Aside DE... And since I was the only one with a sizeable force that and the SW player to be able to field for three people at once.

3 'Nids lists all the same
vs.
3 SWs lists all the same
Both all comers lists (note, we DO NOT do this often)

The players of equal tactical ability we're placed together. So, my friend who OWNS the SW was in the top tier along with my friend who's been playing for around 6 years now, and has a good grasp of the 'Nids, however still fields Space Marines.

I was placed second tier against my friend who normally plays IG, he's good with them, and has a moderately good grasp of SM and their varients as well.

Finally, my friend who plays orks, and the one who plays Necrons we're played against one another.

After one game was played, sides we're swaped, and the game reset. In the top tier, it was equal wins and losses, Space Wolves 1, 'Nids 1. In the second tier, I won with the SW, as did my friend Space Wolves 3, 'Nids 1. In the final tier, both games were a draw.

I was a little surprised, but now am trying to combat SWs on any front possible, and I fail many a time. The one win I've pulled off was out of sheer luck of crap rolls by my opponent...

I learned that beating the SWs is ALWAYS going to be a massive uphill battle for my 'Nids, under any circumstance... Defeating them is like trying to find a worker at my LFGS who knows what WH40k is...

Nobody runs speeders except me and our top tier SM player. Blood-Claws with the special character attached IDK who it is, but allows re-rolls of wounds(?) on anything over T5. Even more MCs dying. No-one runs scouts except me as standard SM, and I've had MASSIVE success with them...

We usually now play 2v1 vs. the SW player, to add diversity for him to deal with...

Anyway, SWs are tough as nails for me to kill off/win against, luckily I don't play for that purpose, but I wish I didn't go into a game wondering what turn my MCs would disappear off of the board. Or my gribblies sponataniously die everywhere they move...

Brother Heinrich wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Brother Heinrich wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Leman Russ pushed over a Titan during the Heresy

lol, i rest my case, there's no arguing with that kind of logic.

Your case was that something had changed recently in regards to Space Wolf and/or Primarch background material. That case was blown out of the water since the original stories about Primarchs were just as ludicrous.

then by all means, lets see the direct reference

Angron killed a party of Eldar assassins when he was a kid.

Jayden63 wrote:

As for upgrades they are actually more expensive than other SM codexs. Our THs and SS are stupidly expensive when considering same models.

That's about the only thing in the book that is costed like that aside from bikes for WG's, and they are horrifically *undercosted* in C:SM and even C:BA. That and you don't need to take both weapons on everything, the primary thing you want is the Stormshield. The rest of the options are perfectly in line with C:SM and C:CSM for termi's, and of course have that beautiful Counterattack for on termi's what works out to be 3ppm (compared with a 30pt CSM termi, a 33pt WG termi loses 1pt of LD for ATSKNF and Counterattack and greater wargear options), and WG's get their gear at the same or lower prices than others, especially if acting as squad leaders, and lets not talk about GH upgrade costs, or lack of them.

Our basic bikers cost about the same, but have weaker stats.

The BS3 is of little issue when they are typically assault units and most of their shooting is TL'd, and their WS3 is compensated for by getting an extra bonus attack on the charge *AND* having BP/CCW for an extra attack. And of course they have the Counterattack crutch to help them out when they get charged..There is nothing wrong with Swiftclaw bikers.

You lose 1pt of WS/BS for Counterattack, an extra base attack due to BP/CCW, and an extra Charge attack. How is that not far more than a fair trade? So you're a little easier to hit in CC, but hit back no differently for the most part except against WS7 enemies but with 2-4x as many attacks as normal SM bikers, and with TL'd guns you aren't losing a whole lot, and in exchange the unit is infinitely more CC capable.

I fail to see how the swiftclaw bikers aren't *better* than normal bikers aside from the fact that they aren't as capable as a cheap MSU Multi melta suicide unit.

Putting bikes on Wolf Guard so that they are at least decent is stupidly points heavy.

Which is about the only truly drastically overcosted option they have

We dont even get Ironclads/sternguard/locater beacons/ and our Venerables cost an arm and a leg.

Instead of sternguard you have the far more flexible, cheaper, and capable Wolf Guard, not a huge loss. Ironclads would be nice, but then again what point would there be in playing C:SM then? Venerables are a straight copy/paste from C:SM except they have even more options.

The only real advantage is that our basic marine in PA is 15 points. Doesn't matter if its Blood Claw, Long Fang, or Grey Hunter. The basic Wolf Guard is 18 points. So on that front, yeah we are a little cheaper on the per man issue, and yeah it adds up over 40 guys or so. But all of our SCs and special characters are about 25-50 points or so more than other comparable codexs characters. So it really does come out as a wash. You will never be out numbered by Vanilla SM and even if your opponent avoided the stupid expensive stuff, you will never be outnumbered by SW either.

A squad of GH's with WG Pfist leader, combi melta, and meltagun in rhino is 17pts cheaper than a Missile/Melta/PfistTac Squad in a Rhino, over 3-4 squads that adds up to another dakkapred or speeder, on top that the SW dudes are far better in close combat and just as good at shooting (and lets be honest, lack of a HW is not an issue, nobody would take it on WS 4 I4 S4 BP/CCW troops anyway)

The SW HQ section costs no more for normal characters compared with C:SM (especially rune/wolf priests versus chaplains and librarians), or very little for more capable HQ's with more options, and the completely optional SC's aren't going to cover the cost gap that the troops provide.

Ohh and all SMs devi squads can also do split fire. Its called combat squadding. It just means taking more guys as bullet catchers. Those four missile launchers will still be firing after a LF squad has been wiped out.

And they cost nearly twice as much with fewer heavy weapons at that point. That nowhere near equalizes out, especially for the all important first turn alpha strike.

Just Dave wrote:
To say that they shouldn't be compared to Blood Angels is - IMO - stupid. You can't criticise and debate something if you are going to put it in a bubble and ignore all extraneous factors; in forums such as Tactics, people always ask for army lists instead of simply recommending units because things should be put in context. Blood Angels should be mentioned and aren't off topic because their flaws directly relate to the Space Wolves.

Let it be known that I think the BA suffer from the exact same problem that SW do in there fluff. I dont much care for the pretty vampires of 40k, but not with the same contempt I hold SW. Really read the entry on astrath and tell me the writer of that thing was a slow or fanboy. So he can be everywhere in the galaxy at once? ahh derp-derp... I just don’t want this thread to turn into a "well look at the BA if they can get away with being asinine then so should the SW!!!". thats the only point im trying to make there.

Just Dave wrote:As for your other points:
- The Blood Angels (!!!!!) are equally heretics in that case, ask the Mechanicum. Chapters don't HAVE to follow the Codex Astartes, ask the Salamanders or Dark Angels. Yes, they killed Inq. members which is heretical, however they still have provided an incredible amount of support to the Imperium and that far out-weighs their dislike of the Inq. or intrusion.

In fact chapters do have to follow the codex astares or they become subject to the judgment of the inqusition (ask the Black Templars). Salamanders and DA only diverge from the codex slightly while the SW use the codex astares as toilet paper. Also the DA may kill inquisitors in secret but the SW go to all out war with them and the SoB. Your examples are flawed by comparison to the SW actions. BA dont attack inquisitors or the ecclesiarchy, BA dont show physical signs of mutation, BA follow the codex for the most part.

Just Dave wrote:- Almost all Chapters have a flaw in their geneseed, it doesn't make them mutants however. Not only that but it's a small minority of Space Wolves that are Wulfen.

It does make them mutants. Its true many chapters have a geneseed flaw (BA psykic echo of saguiniouses final moments) but all those that show the freakish physical mutations the canis helix does are declared traitors and erraticated (Flame falcons and black dragons anyone?). They all show wolfish details physically and on rare occasions turn into freakish werewolves... but it ok they aren’t mutants they are SPACE WOLVES!!! FLUFF ARMOR HOE!

Just Dave wrote:- They don't believe they are Psykers (refer to the proper spelling in future?) as they belief they draw their powers from the earth (stupid, yes). Ultimately, their rites and incantations are stupid, but the IoM no longer disbelieves in gods or fully condones such things and it certainly doesn't make the Space Wolves witches.

Sorry about the poor spelling. Not something that showes up on a spell check. lol But my point still stands they can believe in whatever all they want but they still draw there power from the warp in a far more barbaric and tribal fashon then any SM chapter... but the thousand sons were witches and heretics...ok

Just Dave wrote:- Ultimately, the Space Wolves are much better for the IoM as an ally, than they are an enemy. They are much loved by humanity as they ultimately stand up for humanity like no other, they may disagree with the Imperiums methods but they are on the same side and have one of the best combat records of any chapter. The Space Wolves aren't something that can just be disposed of as you suggest, nor should they.

IMO the most humanitarian chapter award has to go to the Salamanders but SW are a close second. This is the root of my problem with the SW. They are not the cool roguish heroes GW makes them out to be but space Vikings free to do whatever they please whenever they want in allegiance with the imperium. They are tolerated because there is nothing the imperium can do about there barbaric uncontrollable ways. That and money/fluff armor.

Just Dave wrote:I won't argue with you on the game side as I fully accept the Space Wolves flaws there, however I think the way you have phrased your claims and what you have claimed suggests serious bias against the Space Wolves. I am biased towards them, yes. However I also try to bring reason and I will fully criticize them when need be; their 5th edition fluff and their rules.

Your absolutely correct. Im insanely biased about my hatred for SW... I just explained my justification for why above... you should check it out. lol I agree 5th addition SM fluff is getting out of control but honestly I've always hated SM, so on that note death to the false emperor!

Jayden63 wrote:

Footsloggin wrote:

<snip a whole bunch of stuff>

Yes, 'Nids do have a problem with their own codex, but the simple fact of the matter is, I have little problem against other forces, heck, I've beaten mech guard with some decent all-comers list. But, no matter how much I tailor my force, one way or another, the SW WILL beat me, it matters little who the commander is, as three of my friends played the relatively same list of SW and beat me all three times. And to boot, the fact that should a MC go down to two wounds, the Long Fangs just split fire. Let's make devastators with PotMS-Lite! In addition, they seem to be more numerous than standard marines, and their elite units counter anything short of the swarmlord, which their SCs make short work of anyway... I myself have only seen the codex to verify special rules. How much more/less expensive are their upgrades/units over standard marines>

And while I'm inclined to agree that the gribblies NEED frag grenades, I just feel as if Space Wolves are a Harder-than-hard counter for my 'Nids...

Well, maybe you should ask your three friends to play different SW lists. If all three are toting TWCs, JOTWW, and LF x3 then yeah, probably doesn't matter who the general is because your still fighting an uphill battle.

Do any of them run termis, bloodclaws, skyclaws, speeders, scouts, etc. All of which I mentioned can make a very strong army but totally play differently. Your nids might still loose (for whatever reason), but at least the game will be different.

As for upgrades they are actually more expensive than other SM codexs. Our THs and SS are stupidly expensive when considering same models. Our basic bikers cost about the same, but have weaker stats. Putting bikes on Wolf Guard so that they are at least decent is stupidly points heavy. We dont even get Ironclads/sternguard/locater beacons/ and our Venerables cost an arm and a leg.

The only real advantage is that our basic marine in PA is 15 points. Doesn't matter if its Blood Claw, Long Fang, or Grey Hunter. The basic Wolf Guard is 18 points. So on that front, yeah we are a little cheaper on the per man issue, and yeah it adds up over 40 guys or so. But all of our SCs and special characters are about 25-50 points or so more than other comparable codexs characters. So it really does come out as a wash. You will never be out numbered by Vanilla SM and even if your opponent avoided the stupid expensive stuff, you will never be outnumbered by SW either.

Ohh and all SMs devi squads can also do split fire. Its called combat squadding. It just means taking more guys as bullet catchers. Those four missile launchers will still be firing after a LF squad has been wiped out.

Vaktathi took the words right out of my mouth on this absurdity. Anyone who supports they SW codex on the rules side of things is deluding themselves into thinking its not cheese at best... sorry mate the evidence is all there.

Quick tip: suck less.

Space wolves are good, but they aren't unstoppable, think about what you are doing in game, write good lists, and you won't have a problem.

Dexterium wrote:Quick tip: suck less.

Space wolves are good, but they aren't unstoppable, think about what you are doing in game, write good lists, and you won't have a problem.

How deep and insightful... why didnt I think of that...

I know they are very beatable... Ive done so several times with eldar no less. But the glaring advantages from there codex to any other cannot be denied!

You beat them with arguably one of the worst lists (eldar), and yet you still pollute the forum with your whining?

Please sir...

Dexterium wrote:You beat them with arguably one of the worst lists (eldar), and yet you still pollute the forum with your whining?

Please sir...

Ha! good tactics and knowledge on how to use an army properly will beat out broken/poorly written rules any day.

This thread is trying to make a point on how GW messed up when they wrote the SW codex much in the way they messed up in codexes past. Is it the end of the game? no... not by a long shot. Should it be acknowledged so it can be made better? yes. Now if you dont have anything intelegent to contribute to one side or the other on that point perhaps it is you who should stop "polluting" the forums with your two sentenced snide remarks...

Dexterium wrote:You beat them with arguably one of the worst lists (eldar), and yet you still pollute the forum with your whining?

Please sir...

You must be new to the internet , remember haters will always hate and always complain. When their new army books come out and have something broken about them I expect them to be defending it to the death or they will just shift their hate. Should they shift their hate they'll likely say something along the lines of "Oh I remember back when the fluff was good and not ever the top."

Wake up people, its Warhammer 40,000 you are playing the fluff has always been enjoyable in some manner and has always been over the top. Now I know you'll all jump out with the "Baaw, fluff used to be amazing argument." But its wrong, the Codex fluff was never amazing. 4th Ed Space Marine Codex was certainly more enjoyable to read(and had some better rules) than the dribble put out by Matt Ward, but it still wasn't amazing. Space Wolves have always been Wolf this Wolf that, you know why? Because they are the Space Wolves! Its in the name people. Sure now they have those god awful Marines on Chipmunks but their wargear always mentioned Wolves. And sure certain pieces in the Codex aren't gonna be very good, like Lukas the Trickster, and others may seem just plain ridiculous, ie Underwater Tau fight, but they serve their purpose. The underwater Tau fight is practically a throw back to when the game was about more humorous about its Darkness not entirely Grim Dark.

I'll say this, the Space Wolves codex is certainly more enjoyable than Blood Angels one, if I'm going to read an author's spank stories about Super Men curb-stomping Aliens I don't want it to read like a terrible internet fan-fiction, I'm looking at you Matt Ward, I'm looking at you.

Here is the rub on all of that. The level that the SW codex is broken is totally dependant on what is on the other side of the table.

In some cases the point costs are in line. In some cases they are not. SW was the first of the divergent marine codexs to come out, I'm sure BT and DA will have us all talking just like the BA codex did.

Xenos get the codex power shaft. Its just the way it is. If you haven't learned to live with it for the last 10 years, nothing will change that now.

I will never convince anyone who hates the SW codex that it can be a fun, fluffy, and rewarding codex. Just like no one can convince me that the BA codex isn't a huge red stinky turd of game design.

The SW codex is over a year old now, I'm pretty sure everything that needs to be said on both sides of the fence have been said.

This was a fun little exercise though. Its always nice to reaffirm our convictions, even if the other guy doesn't agree.

Jayden63 wrote:Here is the rub on all of that. The level that the SW codex is broken is totally dependant on what is on the other side of the table.

In some cases the point costs are in line. In some cases they are not. SW was the first of the divergent marine codexs to come out, I'm sure BT and DA will have us all talking just like the BA codex did.

Xenos get the codex power shaft. Its just the way it is. If you haven't learned to live with it for the last 10 years, nothing will change that now.

I will never convince anyone who hates the SW codex that it can be a fun, fluffy, and rewarding codex. Just like no one can convince me that the BA codex isn't a huge red stinky turd of game design.

The SW codex is over a year old now, I'm pretty sure everything that needs to be said on both sides of the fence have been said.

This was a fun little exercise though. Its always nice to reaffirm our convictions, even if the other guy doesn't agree.

Here, here well said.

I liked in the second edition Codex how I could take an entire army of Space Wolves in Terminator Armor with Assault Cannons and Blind Grenades. Fun times.

For those curious about my quote on the first page; its essentially the opinion of every space wolf player I have ever met and some from the internet. Essentially Leman Russ is the best no matter what..


I think its a valid reason to hate the space wolves when even in the book a thousand sons, Ahriman and his bros are knocking at the knees at the sight of a few space wolves. (the bit were a space wolf lord delivers a message to magnus.)

Seriously they are almost overcome with fear at the sight of them..

WTF

Also leman russ knocked over a titan.. and the best outlandish thing some one can come up with is the night haunter surviving in his pod or angron beating up the most fragile race in the game.

But I am just a bitter X chaos player.

Shaman wrote:For those curious about my quote on the first page; its essentially the opinion of every space wolf player I have ever met and some from the internet. Essentially Leman Russ is the best no matter what..


I think its a valid reason to hate the space wolves when even in the book a thousand sons, Ahriman and his bros are knocking at the knees at the sight of a few space wolves. (the bit were a space wolf lord delivers a message to magnus.)

Seriously they are almost overcome with fear at the sight of them..

WTF

Also leman russ knocked over a titan.. and the best outlandish thing some one can come up with is the night haunter surviving in his pod or angron beating up the most fragile race in the game.

But I am just a bitter X chaos player.

You find something similar then fine.
I never had any of the older fluff and i couldn't find any on the net so i found what i could from the more recent stuff.

Shaman wrote:For those curious about my quote on the first page; its essentially the opinion of every space wolf player I have ever met and some from the internet. Essentially Leman Russ is the best no matter what..


I think its a valid reason to hate the space wolves when even in the book a thousand sons, Ahriman and his bros are knocking at the knees at the sight of a few space wolves. (the bit were a space wolf lord delivers a message to magnus.)

Seriously they are almost overcome with fear at the sight of them..

WTF

Also leman russ knocked over a titan.. and the best outlandish thing some one can come up with is the night haunter surviving in his pod or angron beating up the most fragile race in the game.

But I am just a bitter X chaos player.

So what you've just admitted is that 'quote' isn't actually a quote at all, just your opinion on other people and players, which you have admitted to be clouded by bitterness. Which, whilst maybe different for your area, is a gross over-assumption and generalisation.

As for fearing the sight of the Space Wolves, they are rightly feared for their reputation, however it's not so much that there were Space Wolves, but why the Space Wolves were there. Ahriman and co. knew they were supposed to be supporting the Space Wolves in a campaign, they knew the two legions never got along and they knew something must have been amiss for the Space Wolves to come personally rather than just send another message. They weren't so much as scared as they were intrigued and concerned.

I'm not a Space Wolf fanboy like you seem to think every Space Wolf player is, I accept Leman Russ is a douche and much of the 5th edition fluff SUCKS (as it does for all 5th edition Codices) however all Primarchs super-human to the extreme. Leman Russ is no different.

Spoilered for any who haven't read the HH:


If you are going to argue a point, try to do it without bias and with evidence and reason.

Leman Russ may have knocked over a titan but that was in VERY OLD fluff and all the Primarchs have done stupid/OTT things (see above). Leman Russ is arguably the most powerful primarch physically, any threads that debate the Primarchs capabilities in a fight usually agree that it would be Angron or Russ that come out on top. However, Leman Russ also seems to be a naive, arrogant douche who fails to have an opinion of his own.

Try putting together a Loganwing and have more than one Special Character
I run a 13 Model 1,500 point Loganwing no real SPAM list, if I add the Two Land Raiders to go Mechanized it jumps to 2,000 points.
It is Logan, Njal, Arjac and Bjorn and 9 other Wolf Guard with a Mix of Weapons, but some of those Wolf Guard are running me alsmost 70 ponits each.

Now here is the weird part, I keep winning with it, though i have not taken on a Horde army, unnless you count Orks.