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I am sorry that the Space Puppies have the most ballaced list that allows them to take on every one on our terms and win.

Jayden63 wrote:

Lord Chiasson wrote:Well it did say he strangled a Kraken with its own tentacles, thus giving proof of his great strength?

Who Arjac. No it doesn't. Arjac is supposed to be a beast of a man even along side other SMs, but all his work is done with Hammer and Shield. No fisticuffs against probing tentacles for him.

Oh your right I dont remeber where I saw it....I know somebody strangled a Kraken tho!! lol

Just Dave wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
If you must go into specific words rather than take my rhetoric with humor then fine I conceed. However then in turn explain to me how not crazy awesome Lucas is.

And take this quote (from the book): "Fenris Breeds Heroes like a Bar Breeds Drunks - Proud, Loud and Spoiling for a Fight" - Grand Master Beilal of the Dark Angels. Pg 21

Then there's Arjac Rockfist, who held off an entire kraken invasion with a hammer. Nuff said.

It's not that I've gone into specific words, it's that no where does it say he was hungover or that he blamed being hungover on a powerfist to the head. It doesn't even imply it. What it does say is that he claimed he was defeated due to the effects of the alcohol which is just arrogance, as I explained. Even without going into specific words, it NO WHERE say or imply he was hungover or that he blamed the (non-existent) hangover on alcohol rather than a power-fist.

As for Lucas and Arjac, I haven't denied their crazy awesomeness, in fact earlier I said:

Just Dave wrote:Fluff wise, I have very little problem with the Space Wolves. In fact the reason I loved them in the 1st place was their fluff. There are some bad points fluff-wise in the new Codex; namely a couple of the battles (fighting under water) and Lukas the Dickster. However, otherwise in fluff Space Wolves are as they've always been: awesome.
It could be worse, they could be best buds with the Necrons.

I don't know WTF Shaman is on about.
Nonetheless, except for some of the recent additions, I think the Space Wolves fluff is as good as it's always been.

I acknowledge that much of the new fluff added into the Codex is stupid, Lukas very much included. Actually Lukas is most at fault. However, Russ is not particularly, if at all, stupid fluff.

New, 5th edition fluff. Stupid.
The core and pre-existing Space Wolf fluff. Awesome.

Also, being a Dark Angel Belial isn't exactly impartial, not does he comment prove anything other than skill with similies.

When someone blames alchohol, especially performance, it's either drunken-ness or hangovers. If he was drunk, he wouldnt have realised it. The fact that you said "it's that no where does it say he was hungover or that he blamed being hungover on a powerfist to the head." means you went into specific words.

I never argued that Space Wolves is any more stupid in terms of fluff than any other 5th ed codex (or indeed any of the codex has "stupid" fluff) but rather than go Grimdark as the case may be for others (such as Mephiston's implication that he is indeed possessed) they went the other direction, making them crazy awesome, which is exemplified by Arjac and Lucas's backstories, something I was honestly surprised to see in a Space Marine Codex (sharing beds is something I, honestly, would have expected Orks to do, disgusting as that may be). Beilal's little blurp also shows how informal the codex has gotten, as, like you said, there's clear bias there. However he still compliments the Space Wolves, even if he thinks they're a bunch of pub crawlers. This type of writing is usually common to that of Orks.

I'm actually entirely ok with mephiston for 2 key reasons.
1.) He's not an IC
2.) He has no invulnerable save.

Also the wolf codex is very powerful however I do not think it's unbeatable. By the way, since when have newer codexes been LESS powerful than the old ones? I know the nids are weak compared to other 5th ed but they are by no means bad, there are plenty of ways to make them nasty.

He blamed his performance on alcohol (PERFORMANCE = PAST, NOT CURRENT HANGOVER), I sincerley doubt he actually believed that but was actually trying to conserve some pride; showing his arrogance, rather than stupidity.
Also, the quote from Lexicanum directly talks about him blaming his defeat on alcohol, he doesn't say or imply he had a hangover or that it had anything to do with his defeat. It is to an extent, specific words, yes. It is however nonetheless accurate and more about specific phrases/paragraphs/excerpts as it still doesn't suggest or state a hangover.

I agree to an extent about the stupidity being related to Grimdark and as I said, I'm not going to defend the 5th edition Space Wolf fluff, I'd just like it to also be compared to other 5th edition fluff which was also crazy stupid although also had more grimdark.
For example, the Necrons and Blood Angels buddying up isn't grimdark, it's stupid. As is Space Jesus (Sanguinor) and him beating up a Bloodthirster. Same with Marneus Calgar uppercutting an Avatar, flying landraiders or the Tyranids eating an entire planet FULL of Iron Warriors and Defilers. This stuff - like Lukas and Arjac, as you said - also isn't grimdark, but just stupid.
I'm pleased you didn't argue that Space Wolves are more stupid than other 5th edition Codices, because they're not. I will agree, they are slightly less grimdark, but all the Codices are at fault there too, as I've just tried to explain.

Just Dave wrote:He blamed his performance on alcohol (PERFORMANCE = PAST, NOT CURRENT HANGOVER), I sincerley doubt he actually believed that but was actually trying to conserve some pride; showing his arrogance, rather than stupidity.
Also, the quote from Lexicanum directly talks about him blaming his defeat on alcohol, he doesn't say or imply he had a hangover or that it had anything to do with his defeat. It is to an extent, specific words, yes. It is however nonetheless accurate and more about specific phrases/paragraphs/excerpts as it still doesn't suggest or state a hangover.

I agree to an extent about the stupidity being related to Grimdark and as I said, I'm not going to defend the 5th edition Space Wolf fluff, I'd just like it to also be compared to other 5th edition fluff which was also crazy stupid although also had more grimdark.
For example, the Necrons and Blood Angels buddying up isn't grimdark, it's stupid. As is Space Jesus (Sanguinor) and him beating up a Bloodthirster. Same with Marneus Calgar uppercutting an Avatar, flying landraiders or the Tyranids eating an entire planet FULL of Iron Warriors and Defilers. This stuff - like Lukas and Arjac, as you said - also isn't grimdark, but just stupid.
I'm pleased you didn't argue that Space Wolves are more stupid than other 5th edition Codices, because they're not. I will agree, they are slightly less grimdark, but all the Codices are at fault there too, as I've just tried to explain.

For the Hangover part, you're just changing your argument now. I've already said I conceed that point if you must go into specific words, so dont start swinging back and forth just to prove me wrong.

As for the whole "nids ate Iron Warriors", in the 4th ed codex the Nids ate up an entire forge world. Forge Worlds are Iron Clad, have TITANS and Techpriests who are more metal than man, and the Nids ate that up in a previous edition. If anything they got nerfed in fluff. If I remember the name of the Forge World was Gryphonne V or something along those lines. The Flying Landraider was a WTF moment indeed, but moreso to make the unit more distinct from the vanilla counterpart, not for crazy awesomeness (since a Fast Raider would have imbalanced them sooo much more). Space Jesus sounds more like Sanguinus returning, as per the reference to beating up a Bloodthirster. Calgar largely has been flanderized with edition and is another Crazy Awesome character, however he has his moments of grimdark. Lucas however is a walking joke (it's even the reason for his nickname "The Trickster") and Arjac is the Space Wolves current equivallent to The White Death.

Another chance to bash on the space furries?! yes please

I feel like Im beating a dead horse with this Ive said it so many times but here goes:

Fluff:

Heretics: SW have actively killed members of the ecclesiarch and inquisitors, this makes them heretics. They spit on imperial doctrine and wipe there ass with the codex astares. All these things make them heretics and should leave there sector forfeit for a chapter more worthy of defending fenris and the surrounding area.

Mutants: They are mutants! Canis helix causes them to turn into werewolves! blood crazed werewolves!

Witches: Now I know everyone uses librarians but the SW have librarians that invoke warp powers with tribal fetishes and barbaric runes. Anyone else in the imperium caught breaching imperial sanction and psychic power use would be declared heretics. They hate psychers yet they are psychers? hypocrites.

Over the top extremeness... just read the codex and ull get this one. Excessive even for 40k...

Part 2 Codex:

Most powerful librarians in the game! Never before have I seen cheesy powers the likes of JoWW, Living lightning, And the hurricane thing that hits you with a million attacks then forces dangerous terrain tests. So we have a power that can instakill anything in the game in a straight line, another that gives you D6 autocannon shots with unlimited range, and that hurricane madness all for only 100pts?! WTF MATE!?

Grey Hunters: More bang for your buck than prolly any other troops choice in any other codex.

Long Fangs: 5 missiles that can split fire for how much?

The list goes on and on for how broke this thing is. Really its just incredibly cheap for what it can do. Everyone expected people to take really spendy HQ's so they dropped points off everything else. Ya right! with today’s power house meta game everyone is going to run 120pt ruin priests and all the missiles and assault powerhouses they can take.


And is this thread about blood angels? NO stick to the topic people and dont set up the BA as a decoy for how ridiculous SW are. True the BA have some ridiculous fluff (Pushing LR out of planes, and teaming up with necrons?), and they are guilty of of the bloody blood bloods of bloodness as well, AND there codex has some crazy gimmicks in it. BUT THE POINTS COST REFLECTS THAT.

But thats all irrelevant as even if the BA WERE as bad as the SW this thread isnt about those pretty boys its about Space Furries.

Just Dave wrote:
I agree to an extent about the stupidity being related to Grimdark and as I said, I'm not going to defend the 5th edition Space Wolf fluff, I'd just like it to also be compared to other 5th edition fluff which was also crazy stupid although also had more grimdark.
For example, the Necrons and Blood Angels buddying up isn't grimdark, it's stupid. As is Space Jesus (Sanguinor) and him beating up a Bloodthirster. Same with Marneus Calgar uppercutting an Avatar, flying landraiders or the Tyranids eating an entire planet FULL of Iron Warriors and Defilers. This stuff - like Lukas and Arjac, as you said - also isn't grimdark, but just stupid.
I'm pleased you didn't argue that Space Wolves are more stupid than other 5th edition Codices, because they're not. I will agree, they are slightly less grimdark, but all the Codices are at fault there too, as I've just tried to explain.

thank you JD at least someone here knows how to take criticism and be mature about it, I still love the viking heart of the space wolves, unfortunately its buried beneath the 5th edition BS. I agree completely about ridiculous fluff being spread around to other codexes, it just seems that the space wolves have the most concentrated amount out of any other army.

ninja'd

Laughing God wrote:Another chance to bash on the space furries?! yes please

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Just Dave wrote:He blamed his performance on alcohol (PERFORMANCE = PAST, NOT CURRENT HANGOVER), I sincerley doubt he actually believed that but was actually trying to conserve some pride; showing his arrogance, rather than stupidity.
Also, the quote from Lexicanum directly talks about him blaming his defeat on alcohol, he doesn't say or imply he had a hangover or that it had anything to do with his defeat. It is to an extent, specific words, yes. It is however nonetheless accurate and more about specific phrases/paragraphs/excerpts as it still doesn't suggest or state a hangover.

I agree to an extent about the stupidity being related to Grimdark and as I said, I'm not going to defend the 5th edition Space Wolf fluff, I'd just like it to also be compared to other 5th edition fluff which was also crazy stupid although also had more grimdark.
For example, the Necrons and Blood Angels buddying up isn't grimdark, it's stupid. As is Space Jesus (Sanguinor) and him beating up a Bloodthirster. Same with Marneus Calgar uppercutting an Avatar, flying landraiders or the Tyranids eating an entire planet FULL of Iron Warriors and Defilers. This stuff - like Lukas and Arjac, as you said - also isn't grimdark, but just stupid.
I'm pleased you didn't argue that Space Wolves are more stupid than other 5th edition Codices, because they're not. I will agree, they are slightly less grimdark, but all the Codices are at fault there too, as I've just tried to explain.

For the Hangover part, you're just changing your argument now. I've already said I conceed that point if you must go into specific words, so dont start swinging back and forth just to prove me wrong.

As for the whole "nids ate Iron Warriors", in the 4th ed codex the Nids ate up an entire forge world. Forge Worlds are Iron Clad, have TITANS and Techpriests who are more metal than man, and the Nids ate that up in a previous edition. If anything they got nerfed in fluff. If I remember the name of the Forge World was Gryphonne V or something along those lines. The Flying Landraider was a WTF moment indeed, but moreso to make the unit more distinct from the vanilla counterpart, not for crazy awesomeness (since a Fast Raider would have imbalanced them sooo much more). Space Jesus sounds more like Sanguinus returning, as per the reference to beating up a Bloodthirster. Calgar largely has been flanderized with edition and is another Crazy Awesome character, however he has his moments of grimdark. Lucas however is a walking joke (it's even the reason for his nickname "The Trickster") and Arjac is the Space Wolves current equivallent to The White Death.

So we pretty much agree on both parts?

and on the internet too!

Laughing God wrote:
Part 2 Codex:

Most powerful librarians in the game! Never before have I seen cheesy powers the likes of JoWW, Living lightning, And the hurricane thing that hits you with a million attacks then forces dangerous terrain tests. So we have a power that can instakill anything in the game in a straight line, another that gives you D6 autocannon shots with unlimited range, and that hurricane madness all for only 100pts?! WTF MATE!?

Grey Hunters: More bang for your buck than prolly any other troops choice in any other codex.

Long Fangs: 5 missiles that can split fire for how much?

The list goes on and on for how broke this thing is. Really its just incredibly cheap for what it can do. Everyone expected people to take really spendy HQ's so they dropped points off everything else. Ya right! with today’s power house meta game everyone is going to run 120pt ruin priests and all the missiles and assault powerhouses they can take.

The fluff pisses me off but what really galls me is the above, Psycho good everything for the price of dirt. Thats just poor codex writing/ testing

Shas'O Dorian wrote:I'm actually entirely ok with mephiston for 2 key reasons.
1.) He's not an IC
2.) He has no invulnerable save.

Also the wolf codex is very powerful however I do not think it's unbeatable. By the way, since when have newer codexes been LESS powerful than the old ones? I know the nids are weak compared to other 5th ed but they are by no means bad, there are plenty of ways to make them nasty.

Eldar codex=nerfed, Chaos codex=nerfed, outside of vulkan lists SM codex=nerfed. GW has a habbit of nerfing codexes that got too big for there briches. I also agree SW are not unbeatable but deffinately at an unfair advantage to all other codexes.

Just Dave wrote:I agree to an extent about the stupidity being related to Grimdark and as I said, I'm not going to defend the 5th edition Space Wolf fluff, I'd just like it to also be compared to other 5th edition fluff which was also crazy stupid although also had more grimdark.
For example, the Necrons and Blood Angels buddying up isn't grimdark, it's stupid. As is Space Jesus (Sanguinor) and him beating up a Bloodthirster. Same with Marneus Calgar uppercutting an Avatar, flying landraiders or the Tyranids eating an entire planet FULL of Iron Warriors and Defilers. This stuff - like Lukas and Arjac, as you said - also isn't grimdark, but just stupid.
I'm pleased you didn't argue that Space Wolves are more stupid than other 5th edition Codices, because they're not. I will agree, they are slightly less grimdark, but all the Codices are at fault there too, as I've just tried to explain.

I actually think they were being consistently over the top with the nids fluff, There were eating forgeworlds and stoping out titan leagions before that IW world thing. (AND THAT WAS BEFORE TRYGONS! lol) But I will agree on all other accounts regarding fluff.

Laughing God wrote:

Shas'O Dorian wrote:I'm actually entirely ok with mephiston for 2 key reasons.
1.) He's not an IC
2.) He has no invulnerable save.

Also the wolf codex is very powerful however I do not think it's unbeatable. By the way, since when have newer codexes been LESS powerful than the old ones? I know the nids are weak compared to other 5th ed but they are by no means bad, there are plenty of ways to make them nasty.

Eldar codex=nerfed, Chaos codex=nerfed, outside of vulkan lists SM codex=nerfed. GW has a habbit of nerfing codexes that got too big for there briches. I also agree SW are not unbeatable but deffinately at an unfair advantage to all other codexes.

Just Dave wrote:I agree to an extent about the stupidity being related to Grimdark and as I said, I'm not going to defend the 5th edition Space Wolf fluff, I'd just like it to also be compared to other 5th edition fluff which was also crazy stupid although also had more grimdark.
For example, the Necrons and Blood Angels buddying up isn't grimdark, it's stupid. As is Space Jesus (Sanguinor) and him beating up a Bloodthirster. Same with Marneus Calgar uppercutting an Avatar, flying landraiders or the Tyranids eating an entire planet FULL of Iron Warriors and Defilers. This stuff - like Lukas and Arjac, as you said - also isn't grimdark, but just stupid.
I'm pleased you didn't argue that Space Wolves are more stupid than other 5th edition Codices, because they're not. I will agree, they are slightly less grimdark, but all the Codices are at fault there too, as I've just tried to explain.

I actually think they were being consistently over the top with the nids fluff, There were eating forgeworlds and stoping out titan leagions before that IW world thing. (AND THAT WAS BEFORE TRYGONS! lol) But I will agree on all other accounts regarding fluff.

Nids got nerfed in every way possible in 5th ed, but this is about SW

I still think the fluff is creeping in on Ork Territory. I like my Comedic Race to be green and haphazard rather than furry and drunk.

Laughing God wrote:Another chance to bash on the space furries?! yes please

I feel like Im beating a dead horse with this Ive said it so many times but here goes:

Fluff:

Heretics: SW have actively killed members of the ecclesiarch and inquisitors, this makes them heretics. They spit on imperial doctrine and wipe there ass with the codex astares. All these things make them heretics and should leave there sector forfeit for a chapter more worthy of defending fenris and the surrounding area.

Mutants: They are mutants! Canis helix causes them to turn into werewolves! blood crazed werewolves!

Witches: Now I know everyone uses librarians but the SW have librarians that invoke warp powers with tribal fetishes and barbaric runes. Anyone else in the imperium caught breaching imperial sanction and psychic power use would be declared heretics. They hate psychers yet they are psychers? hypocrites.

Over the top extremeness... just read the codex and ull get this one. Excessive even for 40k...


And is this thread about blood angels? NO stick to the topic people and dont set up the BA as a decoy for how ridiculous SW are. True the BA have some ridiculous fluff (Pushing LR out of planes, and teaming up with necrons?), and they are guilty of of the bloody blood bloods of bloodness as well, AND there codex has some crazy gimmicks in it. BUT THE POINTS COST REFLECTS THAT.

But thats all irrelevant as even if the BA WERE as bad as the SW this thread isnt about those pretty boys its about Space Furries.

To say that they shouldn't be compared to Blood Angels is - IMO - stupid. You can't criticise and debate something if you are going to put it in a bubble and ignore all extraneous factors; in forums such as Tactics, people always ask for army lists instead of simply recommending units because things should be put in context. Blood Angels should be mentioned and aren't off topic because their flaws directly relate to the Space Wolves.

As for your other points:
- The Blood Angels (!!!!!) are equally heretics in that case, ask the Mechanicum. Chapters don't HAVE to follow the Codex Astartes, ask the Salamanders or Dark Angels. Yes, they killed Inq. members which is heretical, however they still have provided an incredible amount of support to the Imperium and that far out-weighs their dislike of the Inq. or intrusion.

- Almost all Chapters have a flaw in their geneseed, it doesn't make them mutants however. Not only that but it's a small minority of Space Wolves that are Wulfen.

- They don't believe they are Psykers (refer to the proper spelling in future?) as they belief they draw their powers from the earth (stupid, yes). Ultimately, their rites and incantations are stupid, but the IoM no longer disbelieves in gods or fully condones such things and it certainly doesn't make the Space Wolves witches.

- Ultimately, the Space Wolves are much better for the IoM as an ally, than they are an enemy. They are much loved by humanity as they ultimately stand up for humanity like no other, they may disagree with the Imperiums methods but they are on the same side and have one of the best combat records of any chapter. The Space Wolves aren't something that can just be disposed of as you suggest, nor should they.

I won't argue with you on the game side as I fully accept the Space Wolves flaws there, however I think the way you have phrased your claims and what you have claimed suggests serious bias against the Space Wolves. I am biased towards them, yes. However I also try to bring reason and I will fully criticise them when need be; their 5th edition fluff and their rules.

Brother Heinrich wrote:

Just Dave wrote:
I agree to an extent about the stupidity being related to Grimdark and as I said, I'm not going to defend the 5th edition Space Wolf fluff, I'd just like it to also be compared to other 5th edition fluff which was also crazy stupid although also had more grimdark.
For example, the Necrons and Blood Angels buddying up isn't grimdark, it's stupid. As is Space Jesus (Sanguinor) and him beating up a Bloodthirster. Same with Marneus Calgar uppercutting an Avatar, flying landraiders or the Tyranids eating an entire planet FULL of Iron Warriors and Defilers. This stuff - like Lukas and Arjac, as you said - also isn't grimdark, but just stupid.
I'm pleased you didn't argue that Space Wolves are more stupid than other 5th edition Codices, because they're not. I will agree, they are slightly less grimdark, but all the Codices are at fault there too, as I've just tried to explain.

thank you JD at least someone here knows how to take criticism and be mature about it, I still love the viking heart of the space wolves, unfortunately its buried beneath the 5th edition BS. I agree completely about ridiculous fluff being spread around to other codexes, it just seems that the space wolves have the most concentrated amount out of any other army.

Thank you to you too man, it's nice to see someone willing to reason on the internet, usually it's people rigidly standing by their views and refusing to listen to all else. So thank you, sincerely.

I personally don't feel the Space Wolves are that much worse - if at all - than any other Codex in terms of OTT. As you said, they're buried under all the 5th Ed BS that is rife amongst all the Codices. But this will become a minro difference of opinion and as much as I like the maturity you are expressing, I'd say this argument is best left there before it becomes simply nit-picking...

I just feel it's unfair to put that Space Wolves in a bubble and completely criticise them.
As you - and Mecha - are at-least now acknowledging, Space Wolves aren't the only Codex at fault, all 5th Edition Codices are and the difference in stupidity between each of them is relatively minor.
Game wise they are all pretty damn stupid and OTT in one way or another and I fully agree that the Space Wolves are worst in this respect, at least the others have flaws in game. in terms of back-ground, it's all fairly even IMHO.

Once again though, I appreciate your maturity and reason Heinrich.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Heinrich wrote:

Laughing God wrote:
Part 2 Codex:

Most powerful librarians in the game! Never before have I seen cheesy powers the likes of JoWW, Living lightning, And the hurricane thing that hits you with a million attacks then forces dangerous terrain tests. So we have a power that can instakill anything in the game in a straight line, another that gives you D6 autocannon shots with unlimited range, and that hurricane madness all for only 100pts?! WTF MATE!?

Grey Hunters: More bang for your buck than prolly any other troops choice in any other codex.

Long Fangs: 5 missiles that can split fire for how much?

The list goes on and on for how broke this thing is. Really its just incredibly cheap for what it can do. Everyone expected people to take really spendy HQ's so they dropped points off everything else. Ya right! with today’s power house meta game everyone is going to run 120pt ruin priests and all the missiles and assault powerhouses they can take.

*snip! Removed the bit about fluff! * Psycho good everything for the price of dirt. Thats just poor codex writing/ testing

Agreed.

One can't forget the space wolves firing artillery by *smell*, then rushing forward and exposing their valuable artillery platform (whose entire point is to provide distant, out of LoS fire support) to direct enemy fire so they can see what happened. That's really what psycho-indoctrinated, highly disciplined, genetically engineered super soldiers do?

Or of course "Canis Wolfborne of the Wolf Guard of the Space Wolves, raised by Wolves, mounted upon his monstrous Thunderwolf Fangir, wielding Wolfclaws, Wolf Tooth Talisman and Wolf Tooth Necklace, Lord of the Wolfkin, bearing the saga of the Wolfkin and known as the Wolf King, accompanied by Fenrisian Wolves..."

For an army that supposedly does not like psykers, they certainly can field more than the vast majority of armies out there, and certainly some of the, if not *the*, best in the game.

And then we get lavishly equipped genetically engineered super soldiers with access to the best tech the Imperium has to offer, striding stars is mighty spaceships, equipped with rocket guns and laser cannons... riding around on wolves?

SW's have the same issue that much of the newer SM stuff does, where they suffer from Superman syndrome. They win always all the time due to awesomeness and being just "that good", and can **** up all they want with mentally deficient recruits and dudes flying thunderhawks into the ground and boozing and its all right. That creates the same problem that Superman has, in that it becomes boring watching dudes who have the "And They Can Do No Wrong" USR.

Their army was billed originally as a highly elite, small model count army consisting of lots of characters that was highly CC oriented and lacking in ranged firepower, but really has as many if not more dudes compared with other Marine armies, generally with more capable infantry with cheaper options, and astoundingly capable fire support and amazing deathstar and CC units.




As to Mephiston, he's got stats on par with the Apocalypse Primarch Angron datasheet, and better than that of a Tyranid Hive Tyrant, but on a platform that can be hidden behind just about anything. Overcoming the black rage should not a Hive Tyrant or Primarch make.

If all you see are the same SW lists, maybe its time to get some new friends. After all there is only 2 IG lists (leaf blower and vendetta spam). There is only 1 Tau list, there is only 3 SM lists Vulcan, Pedro, or biker.

Pray tell, how do you define a "leafblower" list? BoLS internet E-hype for a *2500pt* army list and stupid list naming aside, what honestly constitutes a "leafblower" army? Is it anything with a chimera in it? It should not be synonymous with "mechanized". And Vendetta spam? How many are we talking about here, becuase once you start squadroning them they become drastically less useful. There are many great IG builds out there. There's dozens of ways to make solid mechanized armies, either with platoons or vets, and footslogging isn't terrible by any means (as long as you are going with platoons) and blob platoon armies are quite nasty. There are quite a bit more than 2 IG builds.

What it boils down to is my fury at GW's insistency on releasing codecies one.....at.....a.........time. as ponderous a sloth, I know it's marketing thats behind this, because if you release all armies at the same time then its much more work on the modellers/writers/testers and your not going to get the rush to buy the newest greatest thing. However it's nonetheless getting old, having the constant rise and fall of codex's, when GW could just release all new army rules along with each new edition and thus keep all armies abreast of one another and balanced, instead of allowing certain codex's to remain unchanged for almost a decade before finally bringing them to back to the light.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:Overcoming the black rage should not a Hive Tyrant or Primarch make.

sigged

I'm a very casual player and even I think the SW are ridiculous. I suggest that to handicap them, anyone who plays a SW army has to take d6 shots of vodka every turn. Oops, you forgot to shoot your long fangs because you got in a drunken argument with the FLGS owner? Well, that sounds pretty fluffy to me.

Randomnerd wrote:I'm a very casual player and even I think the SW are ridiculous. I suggest that to handicap them, anyone who plays a SW army has to take d6 shots of vodka every turn. Oops, you forgot to shoot your long fangs because you got in a drunken argument with the FLGS owner? Well, that sounds pretty fluffy to me.

awesome. that alone would settle all my woes, simply for the entertainment value it would provide.

Brother Heinrich wrote:
who cares about whether or not it was a hangover, Russ took a powerfist to the face. WHAT. I'm sorry but primarch or no, that would have annihilated him.

Hahaha, no, just no.

The Primarchs have always been physical gods. This predates the current Space Wolf codex by some time. For example, Night Haunter survived being shot into a planet whose crust was made of adamantium with enough force to drill miles into its surface. He crawled out of said hole, also, he was still a baby. Leman Russ pushed over a Titan during the Heresy; that's from the old Titanicus/Space Marine days where Primarchs and Space Marine legions originated.

Point the second: the Emperor was not good in a fist fight. The only fights he ever won were against the Primarchs themselves, suggesting he just coded in some kind of submission imperative to his projects. How do we know? We have the account of the Emperor and some Space Marines in the midst of an Ork invasion. In this scene, the Emperor is being strangled near to death by an Ork. Not some legendary warboss or anything, just a run of the mill ork who was part of the horde that swamped his position. It stated outright the Emperor would have died there if Rogal Dorn hadn't pulled the Ork off him.

So if the Primarchs were worse fighters than the Emperor, how did one save the Emperor from a superior foe? See previous backdoor theory.

Jayden63 wrote:Haters gonna hate.

I personally love everything about the SW book. I love the fluff, I love the list choices (still not as cheesy unbalanced as IG or BA).

You don't have to spam long fangs/rune priests etc. and still be competitive. This codex reminds me of the old Chaos 3.5. Not in power level, but in the ability to do many different things and do it well.

If all you see are the same SW lists, maybe its time to get some new friends. After all there is only 2 IG lists (leaf blower and vendetta spam). There is only 1 Tau list, there is only 3 SM lists Vulcan, Pedro, or biker.

So in reality, if all your ever playing against the same damn thing, that should be second nature by now.

Thunder Wolf Calvary, 4 Hq's, and Jaws of The World Wolf beg to differ. >:[

Although i hate it when people start ripping the SW codex i have to agree with some points.
I prefered it when it was more viking with a hint of wolf rather than wolf with added viking.
Also most of the accounts of Russ are from the SW who are naturally going to big up their primarch.
I do agree that SW armies are far to easy to play.
Some of the fluff is ridiculous but IMO most of it is fine.

Randomnerd wrote: anyone who plays a SW army has to take d6 shots of vodka every turn. Oops, you forgot to shoot your long fangs because you got in a drunken argument with the FLGS owner? Well, that sounds pretty fluffy to me.

QFT

This Space Wolf hate is making me want to play Space Wolves.

DarknessEternal wrote:Leman Russ pushed over a Titan during the Heresy

lol, i rest my case, there's no arguing with that kind of logic.

battle Brother Lucifer wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:Haters gonna hate.

I personally love everything about the SW book. I love the fluff, I love the list choices (still not as cheesy unbalanced as IG or BA).

You don't have to spam long fangs/rune priests etc. and still be competitive. This codex reminds me of the old Chaos 3.5. Not in power level, but in the ability to do many different things and do it well.

If all you see are the same SW lists, maybe its time to get some new friends. After all there is only 2 IG lists (leaf blower and vendetta spam). There is only 1 Tau list, there is only 3 SM lists Vulcan, Pedro, or biker.

So in reality, if all your ever playing against the same damn thing, that should be second nature by now.

Thunder Wolf Calvary, 4 Hq's, and Jaws of The World Wolf beg to differ. >:[

TWC is just awesome sauce in a silver bowl. Good thing you can only take 3 units of them. Deamons can take 4 HQs as well, and JOTWW will do absolutely nothing against some armies (All mechanized, or all jump pack, etc.).

Again, if all your seeing is the super hard stuff, then maybe you need to find different people to play with. I know there are other SW generals out there like me who only have one RP, don't bother with an enemy list dependant psychic power, only take 1 HQ, and not a long fang or TWC on the table.

And I'll still give you the most competitive game you've had all week.

I dislike the space furries and shiny vampires in equal measure

Randomnerd wrote:I'm a very casual player and even I think the SW are ridiculous. I suggest that to handicap them, anyone who plays a SW army has to take d6 shots of vodka every turn. Oops, you forgot to shoot your long fangs because you got in a drunken argument with the FLGS owner? Well, that sounds pretty fluffy to me.

Win of Awesome. Although to be fair, I'd probably play SW for the free vodka ;D

Jayden63 wrote:

battle Brother Lucifer wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:Haters gonna hate.

I personally love everything about the SW book. I love the fluff, I love the list choices (still not as cheesy unbalanced as IG or BA).

You don't have to spam long fangs/rune priests etc. and still be competitive. This codex reminds me of the old Chaos 3.5. Not in power level, but in the ability to do many different things and do it well.

If all you see are the same SW lists, maybe its time to get some new friends. After all there is only 2 IG lists (leaf blower and vendetta spam). There is only 1 Tau list, there is only 3 SM lists Vulcan, Pedro, or biker.

So in reality, if all your ever playing against the same damn thing, that should be second nature by now.

Thunder Wolf Calvary, 4 Hq's, and Jaws of The World Wolf beg to differ. >:[

TWC is just awesome sauce in a silver bowl. Good thing you can only take 3 units of them. Deamons can take 4 HQs as well, and JOTWW will do absolutely nothing against some armies (All mechanized, or all jump pack, etc.).

Again, if all your seeing is the super hard stuff, then maybe you need to find different people to play with. I know there are other SW generals out there like me who only have one RP, don't bother with an enemy list dependant psychic power, only take 1 HQ, and not a long fang or TWC on the table.

And I'll still give you the most competitive game you've had all week.

Yes, but for armies that can take limited mech, if any, *Points at my Tyranids*, their units best me on nigh every front. They are better at Shooting,generally most armies are, I'll give them that. BUT, they can down my MCs with a unit of re-rolling to hit and wound units, great. They kill my gribblies in cc. Why? We're in cover, and crush your units before they assault/do any damage!!! One Squad of Long Fangs? Say BYE to ANY MCs on the board. JotWW? Gives up... /rant...

Footsloggin wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:

battle Brother Lucifer wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:Haters gonna hate.

I personally love everything about the SW book. I love the fluff, I love the list choices (still not as cheesy unbalanced as IG or BA).

You don't have to spam long fangs/rune priests etc. and still be competitive. This codex reminds me of the old Chaos 3.5. Not in power level, but in the ability to do many different things and do it well.

If all you see are the same SW lists, maybe its time to get some new friends. After all there is only 2 IG lists (leaf blower and vendetta spam). There is only 1 Tau list, there is only 3 SM lists Vulcan, Pedro, or biker.

So in reality, if all your ever playing against the same damn thing, that should be second nature by now.

Thunder Wolf Calvary, 4 Hq's, and Jaws of The World Wolf beg to differ. >:[

TWC is just awesome sauce in a silver bowl. Good thing you can only take 3 units of them. Deamons can take 4 HQs as well, and JOTWW will do absolutely nothing against some armies (All mechanized, or all jump pack, etc.).

Again, if all your seeing is the super hard stuff, then maybe you need to find different people to play with. I know there are other SW generals out there like me who only have one RP, don't bother with an enemy list dependant psychic power, only take 1 HQ, and not a long fang or TWC on the table.

And I'll still give you the most competitive game you've had all week.

Yes, but for armies that can take limited mech, if any, *Points at my Tyranids*, their units best me on nigh every front. They are better at Shooting,generally most armies are, I'll give them that. BUT, they can down my MCs with a unit of re-rolling to hit and wound units, great. They kill my gribblies in cc. Why? We're in cover, and crush your units before they assault/do any damage!!! One Squad of Long Fangs? Say BYE to ANY MCs on the board. JotWW? Gives up... /rant...

Sounds more like failure of the Nid codex than anything SW had to do with it. Nids did come out after SW, so they knew how JOTWW worked, but decided to give Nids crappy anti-psyker and low Init. anyway. Blame the reworking of cover and HTH as to why your Gribblies suck against units with grenades. Trust me, my Kroot effin hate it. If 5 Missile launchers can drop your MCs, then 4 Miissile Launchers from any other marine devi squad (including chaos) should have just as solid of an impact.

Nid problems are more of an issue with the Nid codex than anything SW can bring to the table.