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Ailaros wrote:The question isn't "should the guard have a higher ballistic skill?" but "should terminators have a 1++ invul save?"

Yes they can... as long as my broadsides and hammerheads can drop S10 AP1 pie-plates that auto "hit" and ignore invulnerable saves.

It would pain me to see my army get wiped out by a single squad of tac marines.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:For the record, Eldar Guardians may have lived several centuries, but they are conscripted militia. Even Aspect Warriors are no more than any man/woman with a hobby in the violent arts. Only Exarches are the ones who dedicate themselves to full-on training, and it shows in their BS and WS5 (even if they wont use one of the stats at all due to their profession). Guardians at BS3 is perfectly fine, they're artisans, scholars and other common folk asked to fight in a war, the fact that they're even on par with trained soldiers is pretty damn amazing.

True, and not true at the same time.

Your take on guardians is quite accurate, although the training they recieve is more than you attribute to them.

Aspect Warriors are those who are currently following the path of that aspect. While they will eventually leave that Path, unless they become an Exarch, while they are walking it they devote themselves wholely too it, and are very solidly trained. If this is not their first time walking the path of this aspect, or they have served as an Aspect Warrior before, basic training would carry across in aiming and firing.

I believe the better question is Should Tau Firewarriors have BS 4.

I had always assumed that ALL Eldar received some form of basic boot camp training in order to be Guardians, while others gor more specialized training to become Storm Guardians, or weapons team operators.

In that sense, I'd imagine the training was pretty mnimalist, probably equivalent to the training given an Imperial conscript, but since the trainign has been going on for centuries, it takes Eldar militia to BS3 instead of the BS2 it takes humans.

juraigamer wrote:I believe the better question is Should Tau Firewarriors have BS 4.

Theyre supposed to be awesome in ranged, so I agree. Tau should be BS4. I actually laughed when I found out they werent...

VenerableBrotherPelinore wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:For the record, Eldar Guardians may have lived several centuries, but they are conscripted militia. Even Aspect Warriors are no more than any man/woman with a hobby in the violent arts. Only Exarches are the ones who dedicate themselves to full-on training, and it shows in their BS and WS5 (even if they wont use one of the stats at all due to their profession). Guardians at BS3 is perfectly fine, they're artisans, scholars and other common folk asked to fight in a war, the fact that they're even on par with trained soldiers is pretty damn amazing.

True, and not true at the same time.

Your take on guardians is quite accurate, although the training they recieve is more than you attribute to them.

Aspect Warriors are those who are currently following the path of that aspect. While they will eventually leave that Path, unless they become an Exarch, while they are walking it they devote themselves wholely too it, and are very solidly trained. If this is not their first time walking the path of this aspect, or they have served as an Aspect Warrior before, basic training would carry across in aiming and firing.

You're right on the Aspect Warrior part. I stand corrected. However they do have BS and WS 4, which is consistent with their status as dedicated warriors rather than conscripted militia. Guardians by and by are still conscripted militia, while most Guardsman have been trained since birth (largely the human equivallent of a Aspect Warrior). My reasoning comes from the fluff for the (now illegial) Black Guardians, who are more well trained due to the craftworld having more Farseers than Aspect Warriors, and it's reflected in their stats (BS and WS 4 for Defender and Storm Guardians respectively).

Tau shouldn't be BS4 either except for special stuff that really relies on it. Their basic troops are still for the most part roughly IG equivalent in terms of training, and fluffwise they have worse eyesight IIRC. What they need is recosting and more weapons options and some changes to a lot of guns to make them scarier.

Tau having BS 4 isnt that farfetched. Given the fact that they're not as technologically constrained as the paranoid imperium, they probably have targeters built into their helmets and such, and eye surgery to compensate for the bad vision or something.

Where the heck do you get that Guardsmen have been trained since birth? Stormtroopers yeah, but Guardsmen are conscripted, given a few months of learning how to march and stand in formation without picking their nose in front of an officer, and how to use a flashlight.

The status as a 'dedicated warrior' should not be a very determining factor in WS and BS. Grots and Ratlings are dedicated warriors but they still kind of suck because they are genetically inferior. Even an untrained Eldar has ninja-like reflexes giving it a natural superiority to humans. I look at Space Marines as a great example of the huge difference between a 3 and a 4. S/T/I/ 4 means you are 2-3' taller, have enhanced musculature, stronger bones, extra organs, quicker reflexes, can drink battery acid, piss poison, survive for a short time in a vacuum and eat poop like its good for you, all that PLUS having a suit of high tech armor that enhances your strength and auto-administered stim drugs, rapid healing, and you can sweat adrenalin, more cardiovascular endurance from having an extra heart and huge lungs, suit includes respirator backpack that probably weighs as much as a Guardsman that can breathe noxious fumes and still get sustenance, and has built in LEDs and targetting stuff. that's a pretty big difference for 1 point.

Cadians, the "poster boy" Imperial Guard. Any Cadian who cant fieldstrip his Lasgun by age 12 was born on the wrong planet. Conscripts are the ones only given a few months of training and it shows in their paultry BS2. And remember what the WS and BS are abbreviations of: Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill, respectively how to handle a weapon and how to handle ballistics (wielding and shooting respectively). Superior endurance would go to Toughness, superior reflexes can minorly affect Ballistics, for how fast they can correctly aim, but is largely represented in their Initiative characteristic. Stronger muscles and better food indicates better Strength. All of these factors are intertwined, but Training and perception will be much bigger factors towards Ballistics than anything else. This again stems from the massive generalizations made so that it's easier to play and you dont have to roll a dice for every single possible variable.

in all respect if you stick to fluff las guns should'nt even hurt space marines. in the fluff you assume the marines circuits have gone haywire, in the game the battle only last a mere minuite or so in real life. so you can understand why guards men are only BS 3. in all respect they shouldnt be BS 3 rather BS 2.5. (jokes!)

Why wouldn't lasguns hurt space marines? there's plenty of fluff where space marines die to lasguns.

Guitardian wrote:Grots and Ratlings are dedicated warriors but they still kind of suck because they are genetically inferior.

Would that be the same Ratlings that get a BS of 4 becasue of their above-average eyesight?

Vaktathi wrote:Why wouldn't lasguns hurt space marines? there's plenty of fluff where space marines die to lasguns.

Very true. Though it usually seems to be where they get a lucky shot at weak spots in the armours ceramite or a hotshot round from a sniper. I prefer though that all the variables mentioned above dont need to be rolled for on this scale of wargaming. It would make it more of a chore.

Guitardian wrote:Where the heck do you get that Guardsmen have been trained since birth? Stormtroopers yeah, but Guardsmen are conscripted, given a few months of learning how to march and stand in formation without picking their nose in front of an officer, and how to use a flashlight.

Well, according to the fluff, Imperial Guard regiments are pulled from the best of each planets PDF. Which means, if we assume that all of Earth's militaries are its 'PDF' then the Imperial Guard will be recruited from the SEALS, Rangers, SAS, and all ther other spec ops forces. Well, probably not exclusively that, but you get the idea. Guardsmen aren't conscripts with a few months training. Guardsmen are lifetime soldiers who are the best of the best from their home planets. The fact that Guardsmen suck is less a testament to how crappy THEY are and more a testament to how dangerous their opponents are.

cadians are trained from birth.
well "as soon as they can hold a lasgun".

40K is a D6-based game. This limits how many possible results you can have without fundamentally redesigning the shooting mechanics.

It also means that with so few results (6 of them) everything tends to get squashed towards the middle. This is why you've got a Storm Trooper and a Space Marine at BS4 when the Marine should really be better, or a how a Guardian and a Guardsman can have the same BS when one should be slightly better than the other.

It's just a part of the system we have to live with as long as it remains D6 (and it always will).

At BS3 guardsman are already better than a marine as long as they've got an officer shouting at them. (BS3 with re-roll is better than BS4)

They don't need to be any better than that.

Although a lasgun is a laser weapon (and thus should hit immediately)... I imagine soldiers today, in the heat of a firefight, are lucky to get a 50% hit chance like a Guardsman does.

Furthermore, I just think of Veterans as Guardsmen that have seen battle whereas an infantry squad is "fresh".

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Tau having BS 4 isnt that farfetched. Given the fact that they're not as technologically constrained as the paranoid imperium, they probably have targeters built into their helmets and such, and eye surgery to compensate for the bad vision or something.

Im now imagining an entire tau army all wearing spectacles

Yeah, those targeters get used when the Tau spend a Markerlight token...

they *do* have those fancy lenses on their helmets.

And given that it's only one lense VS having two eyes, It's safe to say that it's a camera with a view-screen type Visor.

Henners91 wrote:Although a lasgun is a laser weapon (and thus should hit immediately)... I imagine soldiers today, in the heat of a firefight, are lucky to get a 50% hit chance like a Guardsman does.

Furthermore, I just think of Veterans as Guardsmen that have seen battle whereas an infantry squad is "fresh".

Dont try and get fluff and in game power levels to match. You will be sorely disappointed. The D6 system is not able to full reflect every variable so units/guns/etc get given similar values when in fluff one is likely better than the other. I'd rather fhave the functionality of a D6 system than going into more detail, more things to remember slowing down games.

H.B.M.C. wrote:40K is a D6-based game. This limits how many possible results you can have without fundamentally redesigning the shooting mechanics.

It also means that with so few results (6 of them) everything tends to get squashed towards the middle. This is why you've got a Storm Trooper and a Space Marine at BS4 when the Marine should really be better, or a how a Guardian and a Guardsman can have the same BS when one should be slightly better than the other.

It's just a part of the system we have to live with as long as it remains D6 (and it always will).

Exactly that.

On a D6 scale, a good average shot is BS3. Your typical "spray and pray" fighters (Orks) are BS2. A small number of elite troops are BS4. A few heroes and super characters are BS5.

Lexx wrote:

Henners91 wrote:Although a lasgun is a laser weapon (and thus should hit immediately)... I imagine soldiers today, in the heat of a firefight, are lucky to get a 50% hit chance like a Guardsman does.

Furthermore, I just think of Veterans as Guardsmen that have seen battle whereas an infantry squad is "fresh".

Dont try and get fluff and in game power levels to match. You will be sorely disappointed. The D6 system is not able to full reflect every variable so units/guns/etc get given similar values when in fluff one is likely better than the other. I'd rather fhave the functionality of a D6 system than going into more detail, more things to remember slowing down games.

I wasn't suggesting that my ideas were *why* a d6 system is used but rather attempted to make excuses for d6's discrepancies.

Plus, you'll still find a BS difference between conscripts, guardsmen and veterans.

Henners91 wrote:

Lexx wrote:

Henners91 wrote:Although a lasgun is a laser weapon (and thus should hit immediately)... I imagine soldiers today, in the heat of a firefight, are lucky to get a 50% hit chance like a Guardsman does.

Furthermore, I just think of Veterans as Guardsmen that have seen battle whereas an infantry squad is "fresh".

Dont try and get fluff and in game power levels to match. You will be sorely disappointed. The D6 system is not able to full reflect every variable so units/guns/etc get given similar values when in fluff one is likely better than the other. I'd rather fhave the functionality of a D6 system than going into more detail, more things to remember slowing down games.

I wasn't suggesting that my ideas were *why* a d6 system is used but rather attempted to make excuses for d6's discrepancies.

Plus, you'll still find a BS difference between conscripts, guardsmen and veterans.

Couldnt agree more actually. But going back to what the op suggests. It still seems excessive. As even at BS2 a conscript blob with the officers orders means the sheer weight of shots will do some damage. Your talking many tens of dice in just shooting with them! Somethings got to die. We don't really need rank and file troops getting a BS upgrade.

Perhaps a increase to bs if they did notmovr that turn? Excluding heavy weaponss. You could argue they have had longer to steady their aim?

That's kinda the point to Rapid Fire weapons though, longer range for standing still.