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poda_t wrote: I still fail to see though why it is that models disembarking from deep-strike into difficult terrain count as entering dangerous terrain.

Because the Deep Strike rules state that Deep Striking models treat difficult terrain as dangerous terrain... and treat models arriving in a Deep Striking transport vehicle as Deep Striking themselves.

There is a certain amount of ambiguity in the rules as originally written, as there is no time period stated for the dangerous terrain effect... RAW, you could have argued that Deep Striking models will treat difficult terrain as dangerous for the rest of the game...

The argument against the passengers taking a dangerous terrain test was that the dangerous terrain effect is clearly supposed to apply only during the actual action of Deep Striking. Since the passengers disembark after the Deep Strike, they are not entering the terrain as a part of the Deep Strike, but instead as a part of a disembarking action. And difficult terrain doesn't count as dangerous just for disembarking.

What the FAQ seems to be clarifying, IMO, is that the dangerous terrain effect applies to the turn, rather than just the immediate act of disembarking. So the troops would still be forced to take the test as they disembark.

Except that it wouldn't apply to the turn, perhaps just to the movement phase. Otherwise a deepstriking unit that landed in clear terrain would have to take a dangerous terrain test if it ran into difficult terrain during the shooting phase.

poda_t wrote:
My problem with the words "count as" is that you get the whole Counter-Attack & Furious Charge foeces flinging contest again, even though it's clear the furious charge does not stack on...

To be fair it was clear that Counter-Attack and Furious Charge did indeed stack...........but then the GW nimrods realized that armies, other than their beloved Spaz Mahreenz HUUR! (yes, I went there), could make use of it and not only that. They could do it better (IG and Tyranids, I'm looking at you).

Of course GW couldn't have their poster boys shown up, so they reversed their decision.

sorry, if you are looking for a TLDR version, skip to where i have TLDR in caps in my post.

well im stilll having serious trouble understanding why it is necessary to have drop-pods froce dangerous terrain tests on its payload. If you want to be "the ultra-realism guy" any model disembarking from ANY drop-pod would ALWAYS have to take a dangerous terrain test on account of the fact that the drop pod leaves a crater behind it.... Between the fact that it forces an immobilised result, giving the enemy victory points and that it really does not make-up for jump-packs, I don't see why models disembarking from it need to smash their face in and die in the process.

Sure, in the holistic interpretations of the rules and fluff and bla-bla-bla, the sudden surge of defenders responding to the deep-strike, or whatever deepstrike mishapt that occours in the process acccounts for the casualties taken, but then the drop-pods having a guidance system is just.... its just a load of malarkey. All I see it doing is conferring an extended deployment zone, and even then, model's cant do anthing: move, shoot beyond 12" or assault, which leaves the disambarking models horribly open.

The fact was that I never saw counter-attack and furious charge stacking either. It seemed clear to me in the rules that it had to be the player's active turn in order to get bonus attacks.....

I guess I just have a problem with WH40k in general then because people insist on cheesemongering instead of trying to reason things through rationally. I would also like to call attention to the fact that i am posting this at 02:05 hours after a certain amount of alcohol has entered and failed to lieave my stystem. Somehow though my grievances have not changed, the core of which is being able to pull models from squads when the affected models have not been pulled from a template.... There is a bloody damn good reason for which the more competent military elements stopped saluting officers in the trenches of WW1 because the first thing that would happen afterward is that the officer's brainpan would be emptied across the trenches far wall! I just wish I had the time and money and space to invest in another game to see if there is something that struck my fancy better!!!!! (in retrospect, there were times in certain games that I realised I should have lost because I realized I was cheating, and others, where the rules simply collapsed into cheese monger. for instance, that flamer template cannot shoot from the corner of your APC, from its front left tread... thats just BS, and yet I did it, and no-where did I see it being wrong, but I insist that it was cheating!)

TLDR: I am still having extreme trouble seeing what this FAQ resolves........ insaniak convinced me of a few things, but then made me change my mind on other thins; for instance why is dangerous terrain not treated as impassable for the purposes of deep-striking? I mean, if difficult upgrades to dangerous, its only logical that dangerous upgrades to impassable!

Yeah, you will have to forgive me because I have a holistic view of rules; forgive me its part of my education/work experience where rules that adresss a topic that already seems clear are an indicator of other things being displaced too because of the one rule-change. nrgh, I am so angry now... AGAIN..... urgh....RAAAGE >=/

Yes like don_mondo i have had this in real life, disembarked a chinnock helicopter as part of a night time assault training ex and there was a bit of rough ground underneath (Damb RAF pilots LOL). i popped my left knee and shattered my right ankle ( realy did fail my dangerous terain test that time LOL) infact 3 of the squad get seriously injured on that one debus !!!.
so yes jumping out od a valk or the like with even the smallest difficult rough terain has its dangers and the dangerous terain test is quite justified. but then i surpose the same could be said for getting out of any veichle that has been traveling at speed as you will not have had chance to get a lie of the terrain and first priority is to seek cover to compose yourself !!!

poda_t wrote:... for instance why is dangerous terrain not treated as impassable for the purposes of deep-striking? I mean, if difficult upgrades to dangerous, its only logical that dangerous upgrades to impassable!

That's not really logical at all.

Dangerous terrain isn't an 'upgrade' to difficult terrain. They're two distinct classes of terrain, that are sometimes shared by the same terrain piece.

How would you handle it if the drop pod only partially landed on the dif terrain, or on the edge, and the marines got out on the side where there was no dif terrain?
Of course if you go RAW on deep strike, your marines would have to form a circle around the drop pod.

DakkaDakka wrote:

The disembarking models are not the "arriving" model, so do not need to form a circle.

If they are not in difficult terrain they do not test. Very simple.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The disembarking models are not the "arriving" model, so do not need to form a circle.

If they are not in difficult terrain they do not test. Very simple.

But the FAQ says that the models in the vehicle are subject to deep strike rules as well...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Perhaps I'm being too picky here... just trying to get a clear picture. I don't think models should have to test unless they depart into the dif ter.

Disembarking straight into difficult terrain for a cover save now has a tactical cost - a 1 in 6 chance of losing your model. I think it is actually good in terms of game balance. While the FAQ specifically states vehicles, when i run my 'nids in spore pods I will use the same logic, thus making deep striking a mycetic spore full of genestealers into a forest a slightly less attractive choice.

MisterMoon wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:The disembarking models are not the "arriving" model, so do not need to form a circle.

If they are not in difficult terrain they do not test. Very simple.

But the FAQ says that the models in the vehicle are subject to deep strike rules as well...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Perhaps I'm being too picky here... just trying to get a clear picture. I don't think models should have to test unless they depart into the dif ter.

This is the most frightening thing to come out of that FAQ... if this is true (and it makes sense, if the new rules do infact state "the unit disembarking count as deepstriking") then 10 man drop pods would be foolish, as you will almost always suffer a mishap (caused BY the pod...) the only exception would be:

Reecius wrote:How does it take away their ability to combat squad after arriving by DP? The FAQ says they can't combat squad in reserve. The DP says they may combat squad upon arrival. That seems crystal clear to me so long as I am not missing something here.

I think you are missing something... because the FAQ did not change (nor do I think it intended to change) anything about the Combat Squad/Drop Pod ruling.

What the Combat Squad/Drop Pod rule states is

You take 10 tac marines in a drop pod, once they deploy(out of the pod), you may Combat squad them into two 5 man groups.
- By FAQ this is still legal

What the FAQ is addressing is this:

You take 10 Tac Marines, during deployment, you put 5 on the board and save 5 in reserve to come with the Drop Pod - by the FAQ (and the rules) this is NOT legal

splitting into two 5mans now makes sense tho, as it keeps you from mishapping with your own drop pod (mathmatically impossible to disembard 2" away form pod and form a Circle without hitting the pod again).

Also, I think the main reason for the ruling was the prior ruling for Mystics as a tool of justification as well as a deterrent to intentionally drop on difficult terrain to exploit deepstrike/ disembarkation (and the drop pod rules in general).

So its not a nerf, but a "bug fix".

~DAR

"Models arriving via deep strike treat difficult as dangerous."-para brb pg95

The paraphrase is only removing the words "terrain".

We are not given a time-frame for how long they treat Difficult as dangerous. We must look to the Verb-tense to determine how long they treat it as such. Arriving is a Present-tense verb it is an act one takes.

Disembarking Infantry are not arriving; they have arrived, and are disembarking; and Difficult terrain is only treated as dangerous while the deep-strikers are arriving.

To say anything else invites all difficult terrain to be treated as dangerous by all deep striking models for the rest of the game.

The deepstrike rules themselves are separated into the order every rule is applied:
During the deepstrike: difficult is dangerous.
In the movement phase: may not move except to get out of the transport.
In the shooting phase: May shoot or run, counts as having moved.
In the Assault phase: May not assault.
Every one of the above is their own paragraph and in order.

I wouldn't take the ruling so far as to say that a disembarking unit from a SM drop pod has to form a little circle. That formation is for determining deep strike scatter...once the pod has landed they should be allowed to disembark like any other unit getting out of a vehicle..but if they happen to do so in area terrain they will take dang terrain checks.

Kommissar Kel wrote:"Models arriving via deep strike treat difficult as dangerous."-para brb pg95

The paraphrase is only removing the words "terrain".

We are not given a time-frame for how long they treat Difficult as dangerous. We must look to the Verb-tense to determine how long they treat it as such. Arriving is a Present-tense verb it is an act one takes.

Disembarking Infantry are not arriving; they have arrived, and are disembarking; and Difficult terrain is only treated as dangerous while the deep-strikers are arriving.

To say anything else invites all difficult terrain to be treated as dangerous by all deep striking models for the rest of the game.

The deepstrike rules themselves are separated into the order every rule is applied:
During the deepstrike: difficult is dangerous.
In the movement phase: may not move except to get out of the transport.
In the shooting phase: May shoot or run, counts as having moved.
In the Assault phase: May not assault.
Every one of the above is their own paragraph and in order.

this is dangerous logic as the same argument can be made to say that ALL units inside of a deepstriking Transport AUTOMATICALLY suffer a mishap from this new ruling.

"Q: Does a unit being transported by a vehicle that has
arrived by Deep Stike that turn also count as having
arrived by Deep Strike? (p95)
A: Yes."

If you are saying they only count as arriving AT THE MOMENT they arrive(not when they disembark) then they must somehow bend the rules of time and space to appear at the same time, in the same spot as the drop pod, as they both arrive togeather so they both (both units, as they are seperate units, and the rules for reserves only allow them to share the "arrival roll" not the "arriving from deep strike" rules, which the FAQ now states they are subject to) would need to complete the following

which would be impossible, so, given the rules for Reserves not making it on the board, they would auto die.

Just take the dangerous terrain test, if you are that bad at "not-rolling-ones" then those Space Mans in their Rock-Box won't do you much good anyway amrite?
~DAR


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tetrisphreak wrote:I wouldn't take the ruling so far as to say that a disembarking unit from a SM drop pod has to form a little circle. That formation is for determining deep strike scatter...once the pod has landed they should be allowed to disembark like any other unit getting out of a vehicle..but if they happen to do so in area terrain they will take dang terrain checks.

The rules for deep strike scatter are in the rules for arrival by deep strike

The FAQ states the the embarked unit follows the same rules for arrival by deep strike

this will probably be fixt around April when the GKs come out to play.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:*stuff*

Point taken, but I feel like that interpretation of the FAQ breaks Drop Pods and makes them unusable for all marine chapters...that is certainly not something GW would do on purpose for their poster-boys.

calypso2ts wrote:It wasn't the lava part, it was more the pod lands in a forest which is difficult terrain but a DS model has to treat it as dangerous.

Seems fair to me:

If I was shot out of a Battle Barge 100,000km from the planet's surface in a tin can travelling at hypersonic speeds - and accellerating to ever-more dangerous velocities along the way - barely slowing down enough upon re-entry to stop me being pulverised by the mass of my own body when it slams into the surface with unimaginable energy, then barely an instant later explosive bolts slam the doors outwards and I have to jump out, likely under a relentless barrage of weapons discharge from the most God-Emperor hated enemies known to Mankind, I'll be honest, there is more than likely a 1 in 6 chance that I'd trip over a tree root or a mega-squirrel and kill myself...

And that, miraclefish, is why you are not an Adeptus Astartes.


edit - While i have heard rumors of those mega-squirrels having AP3 gnawing attacks. Scary!

Haha but tetrisphreak, according to the new rules FAQ, there's also a 1 in 6 chance that the Astartes will fall prey to the dreaded tree bole!

Anyway that's not why I'm not in a Chapter, it's the damn dyslexia. I keep telling them I've never heard of the Dog-Emroper!

splitting into two 5mans now makes sense tho, as it keeps you from mishapping with your own drop pod (mathmatically impossible to disembard 2" away form pod and form a Circle without hitting the pod again).

You know that 25mm is only .98in as 25.4mm would be an inch. This would mean base to base you can fit models 3 wide into a 2" disembark, as the base only has to barely touch the 2" mark. And you can save some space by turning your circle about 9 degrees or so if that is too close for you.

Okay did some reading:
Disambarking from vehicles does not cause difficult/dangerous check. Ever.
It even states in the SM rulebook that marines disembark as normal. having deep-struck, all that does is make them unable to move, shoot beyond 12 or assault.

Although now reading this I discovered that someone could be a real cheesemonger:
Vehicles moving through dangerous terrain need to make a check. Are deep-striking vehicles required to take a dangerous check, becoming immobilised if they fail? And what would that do to a droppod? its already immobilised, so is it then wrecked?

Although now reading this I discovered that someone could be a real cheesemonger:
Vehicles moving through dangerous terrain need to make a check. Are deep-striking vehicles required to take a dangerous check, becoming immobilised if they fail? And what would that do to a droppod? its already immobilised, so is it then wrecked?

They always have had to make dangerous terrain tests. The deep strike rules refers to units, which according to p.3 includes a main battle tank.

And an immobilized result would become a weapon destroyed.

poda_t wrote:Okay did some reading:
Disambarking from vehicles does not cause difficult/dangerous check. Ever.

Really? Are you sure? What was your reasoning? Because~!
"Roll a D6 for every model that has entered, left or moved through one or more areas of dangerous terrain during its move." Page 14
"Models can only voluntarily embark or disembark in the Movement phase," Page 66
"A unit that begins its Movement phase aboard a vehicle can disembark either before or after the vehicle has moved." Page 67

Cos' they would have entered DT that turn you know? But if you're still not convinced here's the damn FAQ answer... So read better next time

"Q: If models disembark from a transport into dangerous terrain, do they take a dangerous terrain test? Unlike Pilein or Consolidation moves, disembarking does not specifically states that it doesn't trigger dangerous terrain
tests. (p67)
A: Dangerous terrain says you test for every model that has 'entered, left or moved through' the terrain. As there is no exception in the text, disembarking models do have to test. However, if they disembark at the beginning of their move and then move after the disembarkation, only one test is needed, not two." WARHAMMER 40,000:RULEBOOK - Official Update Version 1.2 - Page 4

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:this is dangerous logic as the same argument can be made to say that ALL units inside of a deepstriking Transport AUTOMATICALLY suffer a mishap from this new ruling.

"Q: Does a unit being transported by a vehicle that has
arrived by Deep Stike that turn also count as having
arrived by Deep Strike? (p95)
A: Yes."

If you are saying they only count as arriving AT THE MOMENT they arrive(not when they disembark) then they must somehow bend the rules of time and space to appear at the same time, in the same spot as the drop pod, as they both arrive togeather so they both (both units, as they are seperate units, and the rules for reserves only allow them to share the "arrival roll" not the "arriving from deep strike" rules, which the FAQ now states they are subject to) would need to complete the following
.

Not at all we already have rules for several units arriving from reserves together be that via IC+Unit, or unit in a transport(or IC+Unit in transport). The entire bit does in fact Arrive together all at the same time.

As far as the embarked squad not being able to be placed via deepstrike rules; that is also a moot point already taken care of via the Transport Vehicle rules. A model is itself impassable terrain, however models can ride inside of Transport vehicles and are not effected by anything on table(excepting some very rare special rules; These rules are found on page 66 of the BRB under embarking, note that the embarked unit is kept off table). The unit begins the game held in reserves and embarked in the transport; the Unit+Transport are already considered as 1 unit-entity for reserves rolls(BRB page 94, preparing reserves entire 4th paragraph). When the transport deep-strikes it arrives via deepstrike, from reserves, with the unit embarked on(in) it, the vehicle is placed using the deepstrike rules and the Unit is kept off table via the transport rules, but also via the transport rules the embarked unit is considered to be safely inside the transport. When the transport+embarked unit arrvies via deepstrike any difficult terrain is treated as dangerous(something which the vehicle itself already did); when the unit embarks, which is after it+the transport vehicle arrived, the unit would no longer treat the difficult terrain as dangerous because it is no longer arriving via deepstrike(it has already arrived). it has however deep-striked(deep-struck?) onto the table and therefore follows all other rules for models that have arrived via deep-strike(because it, you know, did).

The FAQ did not change anything. All it did was give a definite and clear statement that models riding in deep-striking transports have in fact Deep-striked(which those of us who bothered to read and understand the deep strike rules already knew). You can also note that the past-tense of Arrive is used in the FAQ as well, it does not ask if the unit counts as Arriving via deepstrike, but if it counts as having arrived via deep strike.

ChrisCP wrote:

poda_t wrote:Okay did some reading:
Disambarking from vehicles does not cause difficult/dangerous check. Ever.

Really? Are you sure? What was your reasoning? Because~!
"Roll a D6 for every model that has entered, left or moved through one or more areas of dangerous terrain during its move." Page 14
"Models can only voluntarily embark or disembark in the Movement phase," Page 66
"A unit that begins its Movement phase aboard a vehicle can disembark either before or after the vehicle has moved." Page 67

Cos' they would have entered DT that turn you know? But if you're still not convinced here's the damn FAQ answer... So read better next time

"Q: If models disembark from a transport into dangerous terrain, do they take a dangerous terrain test? Unlike Pilein or Consolidation moves, disembarking does not specifically states that it doesn't trigger dangerous terrain
tests. (p67)
A: Dangerous terrain says you test for every model that has 'entered, left or moved through' the terrain. As there is no exception in the text, disembarking models do have to test. However, if they disembark at the beginning of their move and then move after the disembarkation, only one test is needed, not two." WARHAMMER 40,000:RULEBOOK - Official Update Version 1.2 - Page 4

the trick is they are not volutarily disembarking are they? The drop pod immediately kicks them out.

Also, this is why i $#!%$@!%$@!%$#@$%$!@%^$!^% hate the @$#@~$@!%$@!%$#@! errata and do my best to ignore them.

I want to take this stupid bloody damn BRB and set it on fire. Its 200 pages of useless,

poda_t wrote:the trick is they are not volutarily disembarking are they? The drop pod immediately kicks them out.

Why would that make a difference?

The rules don't require them to be disembarking voluntarily... If they are disembarking into dangerous terrain, they are 'entering' the terrain... and so they take a dangerous terrain test. Whether they are disembarking voluntarily or not makes absolutely no difference to how that works. All that matters is whether they are 'entering, leaving or moving through' the dangerous terrain.

Miraclefish wrote:If I was shot out of a Battle Barge 100,000km from the planet's surface in a tin can travelling at hypersonic speeds - and accellerating to ever-more dangerous velocities along the way - barely slowing down enough upon re-entry to stop me being pulverised by the mass of my own body when it slams into the surface with unimaginable energy, then barely an instant later explosive bolts slam the doors outwards and I have to jump out, likely under a relentless barrage of weapons discharge from the most God-Emperor hated enemies known to Mankind, I'll be honest, there is more than likely a 1 in 6 chance that I'd trip over a tree root or a mega-squirrel and kill myself...

I don't know about any of the actual points raised in this thread, but I want to use this as my signature now

Does anybody see pigs flyig because it seems like an FAQ that HELPS tyranids?

Cjc1223 wrote:Does anybody see pigs flyig because it seems like an FAQ that HELPS tyranids?

No, it does not.

Really, think on things. This is a GW FAQ being referenced here, if you think it helps Tyranids, you are probably reading it wrong.

Cjc1223 wrote:Does anybody see pigs flyig because it seems like an FAQ that HELPS tyranids?

And so, once again, it does nothing of the sort, because it has nothing to do with Tyranids.