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1068SCP wrote:
Where is the evidence for #2 and #3? How do you think betraying the Imperium and bringing on the imprisonment of the Emperor on the golden throne was a good solution to the religious tyranny that only followed after the Emperor got stuck on his chair? How are they trying to strengthen humanity's foundation when the Horus Heresy crippled humanity's conquest of the stars?

The way I see it, the only "saving the universe" idea the Alpha Legion could have had was #1, and that would be just as much of a betrayal of the Imperium as siding with the Chaos Gods.

Well, they didn't want the Emperor in the Golden Throne. They wanted him completely dead by letting Horus win, so they could fulfill the Cabal's prophecy. When that fell through, they had to find another way to save humanity. The only reason the Imperium is in the religious, tyrannical state it's in is because the Emperor's not around to stop it. Destroying the political foundations of the Imperium would more than likely give rise to a society that would benefit mankind more. The third idea is the "Star Child" prophecy that was put forward in Eye of Terror. In it, it basically says that when the Emperor dies he will be reborn in the Warp and neutralize the Chaos Gods. Thereafter, a battle for the fate of mankind would occur on the mortal plane; essentially the "End Times" that have been so often spoken about. The Alpha Legion may want to bring about this reckoning in a last ditch effort to try and destroy the Chaos Gods and save humanity.

Again, this is just speculation based on my own readings, but I think the idea is kind of cool.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Durza wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Absolutely not. There's no evidence that in the 41st millennium they are anything other than daemon-worshipping terrorists.

Technically, they get other people to worship the daemons. And, since there's so little evidence regarding them available, their state is anything but unquestionable.

Wrong on both points. Voldorious, Dawn of War, Siege of Vraks, etc. All evidence of direct daemon worship and anti-Imperium.

Alpha Legion is not one of the Legions we know little about.

Voldorious was a terrible book and was a giant piece of White Scars fanspank. There were also implications in it that Voldorious was leading a group of renegade Legionnaires. Dawn of War was written by C.S. Goto; a man who made Khornate Sorcerers, backflipping Terminators, Falcons that were destroyed by rocks and sticks, and believes ever Eldar worships Slaanesh. The Alpha Legionnaires in the Siege of Vraks were members of The Faithless; a splinter band from the Alpha Legion, so their actual connection with the main Legion is questionable at best.

The Alpha Legion's motives are completely speculative. The most reliable source we have is what's been written in Legion and Deliverance Lost. After all, if they're just another Daemon-worshiping Legion, then why were they the only traitor Legion that didn't retreat to the Eye of Terror?

1068SCP wrote:

Isn't saving saving humanity saving the Imperium

The Imperium just happens to be the empire in which humanity is centered. However, the actual political and ruling structure of the Imperium is cruel and harsh. Humanity as a race would benefit from its destruction. It's the same concept as liberating a group of people from a tyrannical government; the "group of people" just happens to be the entire human race and the "tyrannical government" is the Imperium. So no, saving humanity is not the same as saving the Imperium.

The new Codex specifically states that they are no longer loyal to the Imperium.

In the short story about the alpha legion in the Primarchs book, it seems as if alpharius and omegron operate different visions for the alpha legion.

We know from the book Legion that alpharius, at least initially, joined chaos as he believed the vision from the cabal was true to the Emepror's wishes. It's possible there is still a schism where some chaos marines are loyal to their original vision while some have truly fallen to chaos.

However, the new chaos codex states two things that conflict with the idea that any of the alpha legion is loyal. First, the statement that all those primarchs who joined chaos for 'legit' reasons have all fallen to the fullest extent. Second is the alpha legion's own entry which blatantly states they have fallen to chaos including consorting with daemons.

I'm not sure which narrative is truer but it seems, at least in the current 40k timeline, the alpha legion has fully fallen to the ruinous powers.

 Darth Bob wrote:
Well, they didn't want the Emperor in the Golden Throne. They wanted him completely dead by letting Horus win, so they could fulfill the Cabal's prophecy. When that fell through, they had to find another way to save humanity. The only reason the Imperium is in the religious, tyrannical state it's in is because the Emperor's not around to stop it. Destroying the political foundations of the Imperium would more than likely give rise to a society that would benefit mankind more. The third idea is the "Star Child" prophecy that was put forward in Eye of Terror. In it, it basically says that when the Emperor dies he will be reborn in the Warp and neutralize the Chaos Gods. Thereafter, a battle for the fate of mankind would occur on the mortal plane; essentially the "End Times" that have been so often spoken about. The Alpha Legion may want to bring about this reckoning in a last ditch effort to try and destroy the Chaos Gods and save humanity.

Again, this is just speculation based on my own readings, but I think the idea is kind of cool.

The Cabal's plan was to destroy humanity, and through it, Chaos.

Destroying the political foundations of the Imperium is essentially a death sentence to humanity; the Eye of Terror and Hive Fleet Leviathan are not just going to wait for the squishy homo sapiens to build up a new government. And again, if they want an Imperium more like the one the Emperor was ruling, why did they betray the Imperium?

The Star Child is a cool idea, but I don't see any evidence of Alpha Legion attempts to disable or damage the Golden Throne.

 Darth Bob wrote:

1068SCP wrote:

Isn't saving saving humanity saving the Imperium

The Imperium just happens to be the empire in which humanity is centered. However, the actual political and ruling structure of the Imperium is cruel and harsh. Humanity as a race would benefit from its destruction. It's the same concept as liberating a group of people from a tyrannical government; the "group of people" just happens to be the entire human race and the "tyrannical government" is the Imperium. So no, saving humanity is not the same as saving the Imperium.

Hey, that's not my quote!

But I disagree. The Imperium is a necessary evil; destroying it would be equivalent to poking holes in your own life raft because you don't like the color. Without the Ministorium, we don't have Imperial Guard regiments getting supplied and sent to the right places. Without the Inquisition, heresy happens more often and more people summon daemons. Without the Administratum, hive worlds become tombs because they have no food.

 Darth Bob wrote:

1068SCP wrote:

Isn't saving saving humanity saving the Imperium

The Imperium just happens to be the empire in which humanity is centered. However, the actual political and ruling structure of the Imperium is cruel and harsh. Humanity as a race would benefit from its destruction. It's the same concept as liberating a group of people from a tyrannical government; the "group of people" just happens to be the entire human race and the "tyrannical government" is the Imperium. So no, saving humanity is not the same as saving the Imperium.

Hey, that's not my quote!

Some are some aren't

The greatest trick the Alpha Legion ever pulled was convincing anyone there is any doubt that they are anything but CSM.

One of the twins is clearly a traitor and the other is still Loyal but, the twins are loyal to each other.

1068SCP wrote:
The Cabal's plan was to destroy humanity, and through it, Chaos.

Destroying the political foundations of the Imperium is essentially a death sentence to humanity; the Eye of Terror and Hive Fleet Leviathan are not just going to wait for the squishy homo sapiens to build up a new government. And again, if they want an Imperium more like the one the Emperor was ruling, why did they betray the Imperium?

The Star Child is a cool idea, but I don't see any evidence of Alpha Legion attempts to disable or damage the Golden Throne.

Yes, that's true...never tried to argue that point.

Yes, which is why I'm not overly fond of that plan. One could guess that they could have a card or two up their sleeves to prevent complete anarchy, but it's a stretch, at best. The big thing in reforming the Imperium would be to remove the religious aspect of it, and there's no way to know how the sudden removal of religion in Imperial culture would affect the way the Imperium operates. As for why they betrayed the Imperium, they betrayed it because of the Cabal. But when the plan the Cabal set forth for them fell through, they resolved to save man/destroy chaos from the grimdark future another way. At least, they've been trying to.

To me, it makes a lot of sense because it incorporates a bit of the first and second theory I put forward. Either way, the Alpha Legion wins. If humanity fails in the final battle for mankind, the Imperium and race of man will be eradicated and Chaos will be destroyed. If man succeeds, the rebirth of the Emperor and the events of the End Times would likely usher in a new, probably brighter, age of man. Again, there's no actual evidence that this theory is the case; it's just a conclusion I've been drawn to because it makes a lot of sense, to me. The whole "End Times" concept has always garnered interest in my corner. There's a lot of emphasis that the Imperium stands on the edge of a knife, so the End Times may be coming soon.

Additionally, a darker theory that I forgot to mention it that they're full-on with the whole "destroy mankind" thing. They're using Chaos and its influence to destroy mankind and hoping that, with mankinds destruction, will come the death of Chaos. They're causing the race-destroying infighting that the Cabal wanted slowly but surely. They're using Chaos to destroy Chaos. This is just another theory, but I'm drawn to this and the Star Child over the others I made.

1068SCP wrote:
Hey, that's not my quote!

But I disagree. The Imperium is a necessary evil; destroying it would be equivalent to poking holes in your own life raft because you don't like the color. Without the Ministorium, we don't have Imperial Guard regiments getting supplied and sent to the right places. Without the Inquisition, heresy happens more often and more people summon daemons. Without the Administratum, hive worlds become tombs because they have no food.

I apologize, I was trying to clear the extraneous quotes so as to clean up my post but I accidentally removed the wrong names. >_<

That being said, religious tyranny is never a necessary evil, it's just plain old evil, in my opinion. The Imperium could operate just fine without the inclusion of the religious oppression that it has. Not all of those branches of Imperial government necessarily hinge on the religion of the Imperium, and could probably function without it. The Emperor seemed to think an empire functioning on secular truth would work, and if given the chance, it probably could work.

Its a toss-up. If you read the Horus Heresy book Legion, you'll see that Alpharius Omegon decides to join with the traitor legions to subvert the actions of Chaos from within. However, it is still possible that at a later time the Alpha Legion may have given into the taint of Chaos, as evidenced by their actions during the first Dawn of War game

Join the HH group on Facebook for a discussion about the demon thing. Most support that the Demon controls the body.

IMO I think they are still loyal. In the alpharius book in the horus heresy they are already told about what's going to happen. The elder farseer they meet tells them that horus is going to betray the emperor before he even does it and also gives the alpha legion the only two outcomes for the scenario. I think they chose the best outcome for the galaxy but not necessarly the emperor

That being said, religious tyranny is never a necessary evil, it's just plain old evil, in my opinion. The Imperium could operate just fine without the inclusion of the religious oppression that it has. Not all of those branches of Imperial government necessarily hinge on the religion of the Imperium, and could probably function without it. The Emperor seemed to think an empire functioning on secular truth would work, and if given the chance, it probably could work.

Not in a setting where Gods are known to exist and leave tangible evidence of their existence.

It might be an unnecessary evil in the real world, where the existence of gods is questionable... but in 40K, there is no such luxury.

My theory is that there was a schism. Omegon has a suit of plain grey armor, and he took the loyal ones to work with the Grey Knights as one of the 12 loyalists from the traitor legions.

Alpharius sided with chaos cause of the Cabal, and when he died his side of the legion went full chaos.

 Flashman wrote:
Cool, I've just started the series. Half way through Horus Rising.

"Legion" creates more mystery on the true nature of Alpha legion.

If you look at Alpha Legion background in the 2nd edition Chaos Codex, it describes how they started waging their own campaign and setting their own military objectives without real reference to what others were doing.

Their "degeneration" may take a different form. They may very well still think they are fighting for a goal, but they may be deceiving themselves. They may set military objectives as if they were still fighting some organized campaign, but the real objective may simply be to cause random mayhem. They may have lost their true purpose without knowing it. With their decentralized structure, it may also be a situation of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. In short, it could be that nobody is really running the Alpha Legion anymore and it is all a bunch of warbands and insurgent cells acting without any direction or purpose, but self deluded into thinking there is still a grand plan.

For example, they may justify raiding and blowing up Imperial supply depots or capturing interstellar transports as disrupting the Imperium's supply lines, but their true effect on the overall logistical situation may be minor, insignificant or irrelevant (if for example the sector has surplus capacity or is not actively engaged in war). In reality, it may just be piracy under a different name, even if they don't themselves believe it to be such.

Even those in the Alpha Legion that believe themselves loyalists in the long run may succumb to this erosion of purpose. Their attacks might be justified as "serving the long term interests of humanity and the Emperor", even though it really just amounts to smash and grab raiding, or launching insurgencies and rebellions for the sake of causing upheaval.

Iracundus wrote:
If you look at Alpha Legion background in the 2nd edition Chaos Codex, it describes how they started waging their own campaign and setting their own military objectives without real reference to what others were doing.

Their "degeneration" may take a different form. They may very well still think they are fighting for a goal, but they may be deceiving themselves. They may set military objectives as if they were still fighting some organized campaign, but the real objective may simply be to cause random mayhem. They may have lost their true purpose without knowing it. With their decentralized structure, it may also be a situation of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. In short, it could be that nobody is really running the Alpha Legion anymore and it is all a bunch of warbands and insurgent cells acting without any direction or purpose, but self deluded into thinking there is still a grand plan.

For example, they may justify raiding and blowing up Imperial supply depots or capturing interstellar transports as disrupting the Imperium's supply lines, but their true effect on the overall logistical situation may be minor, insignificant or irrelevant (if for example the sector has surplus capacity or is not actively engaged in war). In reality, it may just be piracy under a different name, even if they don't themselves believe it to be such.

Even those in the Alpha Legion that believe themselves loyalists in the long run may succumb to this erosion of purpose. Their attacks might be justified as "serving the long term interests of humanity and the Emperor", even though it really just amounts to smash and grab raiding, or launching insurgencies and rebellions for the sake of causing upheaval.

This is mentioned in HH3: Extermination too.

 NiallCampbell wrote:
Legion is worth a read for Alpha Legion fluff and yes the lore would suggest that they sided with Horus for the good of the glaaxy rather than the good if the Imperium.

Have to say it's one of my least fav HH books so far though!

Mine too. The plot holes in it are (pun intended) legion. Even more so than the rest of the much-overrated HH series (which I detest).

 Mr Nobody wrote:
So would the alpha legion be in a constant state of civil war?

Somehow, I doubt it actually ever comes to real fighting.
They probably spend 500 years plotting against each other, until one warband absorbs the other, or they ally to accomplish some other plan, or they trick the other into destroying themselves, or they "swap" by turning each other into double agents for a side that no longer exists, or...




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I hate to believe that the alpha legion are corrupted.

IMO, their plans might appear insane, but they probably have some super clever reason that'll be so obvious in 12304years or so.
Actually, they are probably allied with Cypher (and probably know what really happened to the white Scars).

We believe that like cypher, they sometimes work for the Imperium, and sometimes against it. And even if some of their marines and warbands have become corrupted, they are probably still working on their Primarch's plan (whatever it is), even if they don't know it themselves.

While this is a fairly old necro'd thread... yeah no. Alpha Legion are explicitly Chaos at this point, doing things like wiping out Ultramarine Successor Chapters, getting spanked by the Blood Ravens, and infiltrating everyone, even the Inquisition.


There is no question of how chaotic the Alpha Legion is, the question is if any of them actually still think they are helping the Imperium.

 Ugly Green Trog wrote:
While alongside several other Primarchs and their legions they sided with Horus out of noble intentions they will undoubtedly have been corrupted by millenia surrounded by the warp and its influence, they are probably even more resentful for the fact that despite their best efforts they still failed to sway the heresy, who knows if the alpha legion had stayed loyal events may have taken a very different course.

If the legion had stayed loyal then there are many things that would have swung the tide greatly for the Imperium.
1. Their knowledge of the betrayal. They could have warned others in advance.
2. Less forces against the loyalists at Istavan.
3. Corax would have been able to rebuild his legion at supreme speed, then passing on the knowledge to the other loyalist legions. This would have been HUGE.
4. Imperial reinforcements would only have been delayed significantly by one legion (the nightlords)... unless you count Calth.
5. It would have increased the loyalist strength by at least 2 legions (raven guard and the alpha legion themselves).

Apart from the Word Bearers who started it all, and the Sons of Horus/Luna Wolves, due to Horus himself, I don't think the betrayal of any traitor legion made as much difference to the overall outcome as did the turning of the Alpha Legion. Damned Cabal!

It should also be mentioned that the Cabal was wrong. Neither of their two predictions came true, which calls into question the accuracy of anything they predicted.

If you think this is worth discussing further, and there is no current thread, please start a new one. As another user pointed out this is thread necromancy (threadomancy) and against the rules of the forum. Thanks