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Alphapod wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Alphapod, strong disagree on DA. You can smash upwards of 35 dudes with TDA + Th/SS combos, including cyclones in Assault Terminator squads, into an 1,850 list that is almost entirely fearless and scoring.

This was my original thought on them too. This build has a few serious issues though:
1. Armor Saves:
2. Not Enough Dakka:
3. AV 14? :
4. Mobility: Deathwing in an all-terminator build is verry, vvveeeerrrrryyyyy slow.

Sorry, I think you're way off base. You've got 35 Terminators in an 1850 list. What's more is that those Terminators pack 14 missile launchers. Everything is scoring, and there are less than 10 Fearless, scoring kill points on the table.

1. You have so many terminators that that a single bad roll doesn't neuter the army. Losing 5 Terminators to is rare, and even if it does happen represents less than 15% of your total list. They're still as hard to kill via small arms as 70 regular Marines, and far more durable versus anything that ignores armor.

2. 14 MLs is a lot of Dakka. More importantly, it's non vehicle dakka on a 2+/3+ save model that will shoot until it's dead. At 48", Deathwing can actually out-shoot many lists, and in KP missions they have the luxury of simply lining up on the back table edge and saying 'come get me'.

3. AV14 is a legitimate problem, but Deathwing can actually just ignore it to death on the way in, feed it a "sacrificial" terminator squad, and then crush the occupants with the countercharge. In my playtests, Deathwing actually do a ranked phalanx quite well; line upon line of Terminators go plodding forward and simply bury the opposition with Terminators.

One chainfist per unit is an easy and common loadout, and AV14 had better keep moving. Cheap MM/TML speeders is also a source of meltas. Not much melta, but some.

4. Legitimate problem, but not insurmountable. 1 squad can squat at home, or even spread between objectives (very possible considering a 19" possible footprint), while the other 6 go barreling forwards. Deathwing assault can also be helpful in plonking a reserve squad down on T1. DoW deployment also less of a hindrance to DW than it is to many armies, especially infantry-based heavy weapon armies (long fangs).

Of all the issues you listed, you didn't list the most legitimate threats to Deathwing: psychic powers. Nulll Zone and Lash specifically can really hurt Deathwing. They either sink 170 into Zeke or just hope they don't run into those lists.

stompydakka wrote:What army were you playing? was the nid player spammy/very, very, good? were you new?

Being massacred on turn 3 by one of the worst codices in the game only happens under unnusual circumstances.

500pts Store Tourney, WH list, Stormtroopers, SoB, Immolator, nasty Inquisitor+ Retinue

Objectives, 16 outflanking Genestealers w/ Broodlord and a whole lot of regeneration was a pain. Plus a Carnifex, although this gave me my best luck ever, Stormtrooper Sarg, hit with both attacks, wounded (double ), killed (2+ armour, double ) it only had two wounds left and the Sarg killed it before it wiped him. (his squad dead last turn)


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sourclams wrote: Losing 5 Terminators to is rare, and even if it does happen represents less than 15% of your total list. They're still as hard to kill via small arms as 70 regular Marines, and far more durable versus anything that ignores armor.

Another small anecdote, Calgar and 5 Termies were left, my BA piled in, the DC left them with 12 2+ saves. 11 's, and one .

ELEVEN

Not really played 40K for ages. I take it from the lack of mentions that Eldar and Chaos Daemons are well and truly mid tier?

Well the top three are

IG
SW
-----

It still a blank for third, its between Chaos, Vanilla Marines and sometime Orks. I still believe that going to change with DE in the mix now.

The last GT tourney First and Second place were SW and Orks third.

Flashman wrote:Not really played 40K for ages. I take it from the lack of mentions that Eldar and Chaos Daemons are well and truly mid tier?

Yeah, pretty much. Can be competitive, but usually not at the top. My list would end up something like this:

1 - Imperial Guard
2 - Space Wolves
3 - Blood Angels

4 - Orks
5 - Dark Eldar
6 - Vanilla Marines

7 - Eldar
8 - Chaos Demons
9 - Chaos Space Marines
10 - Tyranids

11 - Black Templars
12 - Witchhunters
13 - Dark Angels

14 - Daemonhunters
15 - Tau
16 - Necrons

The bottom 6 are all pretty close, as are the top 6 really. The middle 4 are just that, middle of the road. I wouldn't be surprised to see any of the top 10 win a tournament though, as they are all competitive. The things that seperate the mid tier armies from the top is really due to overall codex quality. The top 6 armies all have multiple competitive builds. The mid 4 pretty much have 1 or 2 competitive builds. Bottom 6 have 1ish semi-competitive strategy needed to be used to win.

didn't tau place or win ardboyz? And I've seen necrons and tau dust BA and Spacewolves and IG.

Look, it's the player...how many times have I seen someone say it's "the army" and then their opponent switch with them and still win?


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Also notice that the bottom tier are all due a codex update

Of course its the player that wins tournaments, but you are seriously confused if you think that overall Necrons or Tau are better the Wolves or IG. That is really whats up for debate. Certain armies are better, point for point, slot for slot then others. Mid tier or even bottom tier armies can be incredibly strong piloted by really good players, but that doesn't mean those armies are top tier, just that the player is.

Dashofpepper wrote:Disappointed not to see Dark Eldar in here.

Mech IG, Dark Eldar....and I think BA and Space Wolves are tied for a spot.

I agree with this.

I will also put in an honorable mention of DA deathwing.

It's new, so until someone figures it out, it's got to be included. I'm waiting for BT to show up...

Best:
IG
BA
DE
BT come close.

Worst:
Necrons
DH
Tau

DE is currently the flavor of the month. You can not rank them right now because players are still getting used to them and getting used to playing against them. The upcomming gts will be a great place to see how they stack up.

IG
SW
Vanilla (My personal opinion is that Vulcan lists are better for the current meta)

Also, Tau should not be ranked in any bottom lists. They have one competitive build and you have to play them in that specific manner. However that build is able to stand up to any codex or list. I feel the same applies to chaos though to a less degree.

bottom 3

DH
necrons
witch hunters

I would definitely put Witch Hunters above Tau, especially with the Ally rules still alive and well (haven't been errataed out of the codex; anyone who owns the codex can still run allies). Witch Hunters with an allied IG platoon/heavy weapon support are a terrifying army.

Top 3:

1. IG
2. IG
3. IG

There are other armies that can build competitive lists but by far IG is the one that you have to account for when you build your own list.

1. Necron
2. Necron
3. Tau

These two are the only ones that truly suck in HTH and thus have to allow for this total suckiness in any army build they may have as every other codex has some form of assaulting cheese it can throw at you or (IG) will actually outshoot you.

All the other codecies have their issues and may suck more or less or may have a certain resilience to the IG flavor of the day but a good general can still make them work.

lol, thats alot of IoM at the top! Beautiful!

Blood Angels
Space Wolves
Soon to be Grey Knights

The way the recent books have been going (in particular with GW's glory boys) its a no brainer that these are/will be the top tier armies. Oh to be a Guard/Chaos player in the Marinehammer Era.

RxGhost wrote:1: Necrons
2: Tyranids
3: Imperial Guard

3: Eldar
2: Tau
1: Space Wolves

Is this an attempt at humor, or merely a shameless troll?

Come on, Necrons #1? They may not be the worst army, but better than IG? And calling Space Wolves the least competitive book is laughable.

i think
CSM
Orkz
and SM
are the Top 3 competitive armies

Top 3

Best: no order

Marines: With the FAQ even the old marines are good enough to be lumped with SW, BA, and ultra smurfs.
IG: people who play against them know the many reasons, and not just because of the gimmick builds. They have a powerful and balanced book that produces some really good lists.
DE: in the hands of a skilled player they can utterly crush the opposition. In the hands of less capable generals, they are a joke... If it weren't for the in built fragility, they would be broken good.

Worst: no order
Necrons: no options, bad required units, phase out, no transports, poor anti tank, and bad point costs make them really hard to win with.
DH: not many real options (lol daemonhosts), high point costs, and limited transport, limited anti tank, and relies too much on allies to be even decent.

Honorable mention good: Orks. If it weren't for how fearless works now, and how bad the FOC is (check the elite section, too many units fighting for to few slots, while the FA and HS are relatively poor), they would be in the top tier.


Honorable mention bad:
CSM: high point costs, bad FOC (just look at fast attack), and too many units trying to be marines, but with worse support units. Still playable due to being "spikey" marines
Chaos daemons: Hits hard, and some of the heaviest hitters at decent points costs in the game. Hurt horribly by how they have to deploy, and lack of real ranged firepower. Having good assault ability doesn't help when your enemy hides in metal boxes.