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I used bikers in squads of 10 pretty well at the beginning of 5th edition. My biggest issue is still the leadership. If they were still base fearless like 3rd-4th edition I'd rate them extremely highly. The only reason I don't field them more is that I'd have to field them as troops and that means Wazdakka which is a character I don't care for.

However I think they have a place. Just it requires they be taken as troops. In the FA slot there is zero reason to run bikers. That's just my personal opinion though

Dash: One correction to an earlier statement is that Ork Warbikers have 2 wounds each.

My opinion:

Warbikers are an "ok" unit. They aren't great, but they aren't horrible. You've got a fast unit with relatively poor attacks at ranged and good close combat skills.

Stellek's list, posted Feb 14th, is:

1 Wazdakka Gutsmek, 180 pts

10 Lootas, 150 pts
9 Lootas, 135 pts
9 Lootas, 135 pts

3 Warbikers, 140 pts
1 Biker Nob (Bosspole; Power Klaw)
3 Warbikers, 140 pts
1 Biker Nob (Bosspole; Power Klaw)
3 Warbikers, 140 pts
1 Biker Nob (Bosspole; Power Klaw)
3 Warbikers, 140 pts
1 Biker Nob (Bosspole; Power Klaw)
3 Warbikers, 140 pts
1 Biker Nob (Bosspole; Power Klaw)
3 Warbikers, 135 pts
1 Biker Nob (Power Klaw)

2 Deffkoptas, 115 pts (Twin Linked Rokkit Launcha x2; Buzzsaw x1)
2 Deffkoptas, 115 pts (Twin Linked Rokkit Launcha x2; Buzzsaw x1)
2 Deffkoptas, 115 pts (Twin Linked Rokkit Launcha x2; Buzzsaw x1)

3 Big Gunz, 72 pts (Ammo Runt x3; Additional Gun Krew)
7 Gretchin
3 Big Gunz, 72 pts (Ammo Runt x3; Additional Gun Krew)
7 Gretchin
3 Big Gunz, 75 pts (Ammo Runt x3; Additional Gun Krew)
8 Gretchin

Total Roster Cost: 1999

So, you've got 9-10 fast moving elements, and some gun support. Personally, I would have dropped the extra warbiker in each squad and have added more lootas, but that's my style.

What do we have on the board? A lot of T5 bikes and jetbikes who will always have a 4+ cover. A lot of lootas at T4, who are probably getting a 4+ cover, and 9 Kannons.

I run:
2x KFF Big Mek
2x Deff Dread (2x Rokkits)
2x 20x Boyz, Shootas, 2x Big Shoota, Nob, PK, BP
2x 10x Grotz, Runtherder
3x 14x Loota
2x Deffkopta, Buzzsaw, TL Rokkits
3x Killa Kan, 3x Rokkits

I think my list would walk right over Stelek's list. I deploy my Kans and Dreads up front, and on the sides, with a wide enough deployment that the bikes won't be able to easily buzz past. The shoota boys and meks are behind the kans, giving them cover saves and getting cover in return, the lootas in the back, with a grot screen on each flank to prevent the lootas from getting easily assaulted.

So what does this warbiker list have that can reliably hurt my kans and dreads? Lootas and Kannons. However, his lootas will be shot at by my lootas, quickly putting them out of the picture. The kannons will then get the same. Yes, he will get some str7/8 shots off, but not enough to cripple my kan wall. At the same time, my kans and dreads are shooting rokkits into his warbikes. I won't kill a ton, but I only need one to force a leadership test. And even with a bosspole, he will fail about 25% of the time. Those rokkits will ID his warbikers, and if he's getting close enough to me to threaten my army in assault, I'm close enough to him to get my shoota boys and kans/dreads into assault with his buggies.

My list, which is not in my opinion a super competative GT level list, will easily ruin the day of his warbikers list. And I find the same thing when I run his list in my head against most competative lists. The current meta is using vehicles, and his list has no vehicles in it. Instead, it has a lot of units that are very vulnerable to anti-tank and will be vulnerable to anti-infantry as well.

This list might do well against an IG Leafblower list, which is something I am very vulnerable too, but in general I don't see it as being highly competative.

Heff, warbikers only have one wound. The nob leading them has two.

Edit: WHoops, FAQ'd.

Vrakk wrote:To those who support the use of warbikes - I ask this: How do you get around the leadership issue? In my opinion, low leadership is Orks biggest weakness. Orks have many ways of getting around this - but warbikes do not. I love the idea of bikes (I played in 3rd ed when warbikes could shoot their dakka guns on the charge) but I almost always need to take a leadership test before doing anything with them - which means 1/3 of the time they ride away without accomplishing much.

In the ETC list I linked to there is a large squad of them (starting off 12 strong) with a Nob with the standard mandatory kit of klaw and bosspole. This makes their LD pretty darn reliable, although they are potentially vulnerable (as are all non-Fearless units in 40k) to a PBS.

Vrakk wrote:On a straight point for point basis - why would you ever field bikers and not Nob bikers? 20 pts more for: a) 1 more wound b) 1 higher strength c) the ablilty to take better weapons/gear d) whte ability to wound allocate e) nob bikers can be troop choices without having to take a special character

Okay, so I've got two choices. Take a super-unit which costs an extra 20pts a model, plus more if I want said better weapons and gear, or take the lesser unit which costs less and brings more bodies. You have choices like that in every codex. Does every BA player leave assault marines at home because Sanguinary Guard and Honor Guard are available? If the cheaper unit does the job you need in the context of your list, it's often smarter to take the cheaper unit.

Dashofpepper wrote:@Juvieus: Warbikers are extremely expensive for an ork model, less effective than nobs who can be just as mobile,

Less effective than Nobs, sure, but at a much lower price per model.

Dashofpepper wrote:...undewhelming in shooting,

12 bikes put out 36 TL S5 AP5 shots, averaging about 20 hits. That's the same as 10 SM heavy bolters (albeit with worse AP). That's around 4.4 dead SM , 16.8 dead Wyches (8.4 even with FNP), 13.2 Genestealers, or 2.2 wounds on a Tervigon, or 3.3 wounds on TWC. 20 shoota boyz kill 2.2 SM, 8.8 Wyches, 4.4 stealers, or 1.1 tervigon wounds. The shoota boys are a big more points efficient, but the warbikers do real damage.

Dashofpepper wrote:...overwhelmed in close combat,

Against TWC (without support) or against TH/SS terminators, sure. But part of the point of a mobile unit is to pick your targets. 8-10 (assuming you lost a few to shooting on the way in) T5 models with a bunch of attacks and a klaw nob beats a lot of units. 7 GH (after Warbiker shooting at a 10 model unit) kill ~3 Warbikers, then the bikers kill 2 and the klaw nob a couple more, winning by 1. Yes, the GH are cheaper, but the bikers can beat them in HtH, and the bikers should be picking their fight, having the greater inherent mobility, assuming you're both competent players and go after each other's transports. If you're going after Razorback, Chimera, or Valk-mounted scoring units running around the edges of the table, the Warbikers have the speed, durability, and killiness to take on multiples of these units in a single game and prevent them from scoring.

Dashofpepper wrote:... without even a serious advantage in mobility to their mechanized counterparts - who can't turbo-boost up to 24", but they can move 13", disembark 2", run 6" on a Waaaugh! and charge 6", and actually cover more ground than the warbikers.

A squad in a transport can beat them for assault range for a single turn, but not over two turns (like turns 1 & 2, for example). The squad in a transport is also always subject to losing the transport. The bikes never lose mobility.

Dashofpepper wrote:On top of all that, they are T4(5) instead of T5, so STR8 will still insta-gib them, which isn't as important as it is with nobs, since warbikers only have one wound,

This is actually a significant point in the Bikers' favor, as shooting S8+ stuff at the Nobs garners a substantially higher reward per shot thanks to instant death. ML, Manticores, lascannons, vindicators, etc. are no more threatening to the warbikers than the nobs; actually less so as the warbikers are substantially cheaper per model.

Dashofpepper wrote:their 3-15 unit size means that they're going to be taking leadership tests long before regular boyz - and I'm not sure I've EVER even seen someone take these in units of 15, and on top of all that, this is for a STR3 model, who is STR4 on the charge, attacking at I3 at best.

Let's take a look. Say 20 Boys dismounted from the battlewagon eat a round of bolter fire from a squad of GH. 10 GH = 16 bolter shots and two melta. Bolters kill 5.28, meltas 1.1, so about 6.4 boys, or about 38.4pts worth. The same GH shoot the bikers. 1.76 dead from bolters, .55 from melta = 2.31. That's 46.2pts' worth. So comparably durable there, with the warbikers suffering less reduction in attack output, having lost 2 models to the Boys' 6. Another round of fire like that from a second enemy unit will put either Ork unit below Fearless level. Yes, the Boys are substantially cheaper and put out more attacks in HtH, but they are not actually substantially more resiliant vs. shooting, and they are dependent on their transport for mobility and protection.

I'm not saying I'd consider bikers a substitute for Boyz; not by any means. But they're not terrible either. IMO they can be used with success in a top-level tournament army.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dashofpepper wrote: I'm not going to go into particular detail because this isn't the place for it, but the ETC was worth a laugh. Just like GW Vegas Invitational is worth a laugh.

This is just rude and ignorant. Players you know and respect (or should) participate in the ETC or vie to, and judge it to be a competive event. Guys like Alex Fennell, Ben Mohlie, Wyatt Traina, Paul Miglino, Greg Sparks and Matt Cassidy. I'm sure Hulksmash and Reecius would love to go, and would also consider it a competitive event, but they can correct me if I'm wrong. The ToS event in Vegas this summer's going to be a good event too, with plenty of competition, despite the less-than-stellar scoring system.

Laugh away, if it makes you feel better.

Dashofpepper wrote:At any rate, I'm pretty sure that nothing else new is going to come to this thread, and that no one is going to step up to actually back up their opinions counter to mine.

Well, I hope your long year of GT play hasn't left you a jaded old veteran no longer open to new ideas. I know some of the guys who've been doing it a decade or more have a tendency to occasionally get set in their ways, but I wouldn't think you would so quickly.

Mannahnin I'm not gonna argue that warbikers are a worthless unit, but there are a number of better options in the codex. You can take a warboss biker to unlock nobs as a troop for basically half the cost of Wazzdakka and now you can create a far more potent biker unit. Yes each nob costs more but you already saved almost 100 points taking your HQ, so in the long run the cost is only slightly more for a much better unit.

Now if you want multiple biker units in your list then Wazzdakka with multiple biker troops make a lot of sense but you have to weigh that investment vs. vanilla boyz, 1 or 2 nob troop units, grots and the like. I've made solid biker lists in the past featuring wazzdakka and then several bike units. It makes for a solid list. I don't think it's as optimal as a kan wall with a horde or a battlewagon spam with payload but it's serviceable.

Another way to go is to not use the bikes as troops as simply use them as fast attack. I don't think a 3 unit biker MSU is a terrible idea, but I think you're gonna get more bang out of a loaded CC deffkopta with scout for less points and only 1/3 less wounds or a tricked out buggy unit with double the shooting range and TL shoots for only 15 more points.

Mannahnin, selective scenarios and theoryhammering doesn't make a good debate, which is why I try not to engage on it. I'd rather roll dice, thus my oft-repeated slogan here which you so disapprove of: (Lets play and find out).

Also, your math is incorrect for biker shooting.

The players I know and respect feel the same way I do about the ETC to my knowledge from my conversations with them about it - limited as they were because of a general lack of interest in the event among those just mentioned. Not particularly competitive, and attended by those willing to pay to go. Someone doing well in an event that I don't hold in high regard because I view its structure uncompetitive and limited is nowhere as meaningful as someone doing well in something I respect. As for the ToS in Vegas - they're selling tickets to the general public. My ticket is getting sold to the general public. I don't disagree that there will be competitive games there, but there will not be a competitive ranking system, which is why I dismiss it. The fact that you think my opinion is rude and ignorant shows how different our mindsets are (reinforced by the fact that you've taken more punitive actions against me than every other moderator on Dakka combined).

I respect Matt Cassidy because I've seen him play and played against him. I respect Alex Fennel for much the same reason. And Hulksmash. And Reecius. Etc. I don't know who Wyatt Traina is, I haven't played against him or seen him at any event I've been to, and I travel a *lot*. That doesn't mean I have no respect for him, it means I haven't formed an opinion of him. If he runs warbiker nobs in Grand Tournaments here in the U.S., and I paired up against him, my initial opinion of him will be that he is a brave soul and about to get beat down. If I was right, I would dismiss my game from memory - I don't remember my wins like I remember my losses. If I was wrong, he'd earn my respect and admiration, and a serious reconsideration of his army.

My willingness to consider something I don't believe works requires demonstration. You don't buy a gun without making sure it fires, and you don't buy into a philosophy being claimed as successful without seeing it in action. Is it so strange that I'm asking for a demonstration of the capabilities of something I believe to be inferior?

Dashofpepper wrote:My willingness to consider something I don't believe works requires demonstration. You don't buy a gun without making sure it fires, and you don't buy into a philosophy being claimed as successful without seeing it in action. Is it so strange that I'm asking for a demonstration of the capabilities of something I believe to be inferior?

You could demonstrate your experience with using warbikers. Share with us what good/bad they've been in more than one match and point this as to why you don't like them. We already have a verbal account of why you don't like the stats...

Just a thought

Edit: Not helpful

Dashofpepper wrote:Mannahnin, selective scenarios and theoryhammering doesn't make a good debate, which is why I try not to engage on it.

?

Except in your first post in this thread, in the part which you said was drawn from a tactics article you're working on, where you specifically invoked "math hammer" in describing how great and efficient, numerically, slugga and shoota boys are.

Math helps us understand the game better. I completely concur that theoryhammer often fails to tell the entire tale. I carefully chose scenarios comparing common competitive units, not "selective" ones in the sense that they were cherry-picked to get the results I wanted. My math showed that Boys ARE more efficient point for point in shooting, and slightly more resilient in the scenarios I gave, so I'm obviously not distorting anything to support my points.

You posted that you had given a detailed breakdown of why bikers are bad, challenged others to respond, and predicted no one would. Your prediction was incorrect, and IMO so is your assessment.

Dashofpepper wrote:I'd rather roll dice, thus my oft-repeated slogan here which you so disapprove of: (Lets play and find out).

Where do you get the idea that I disapprove of it? Playing real games against real tournament opposition and seeing how the units actually relate on the table; within the contest of missions, maneuver, and terrain, is fundamental for proper understanding. As I just cited in my comments on Jy2's tyranid tournament report over in the Bat Reps forum. You have no BRs (that I can recall) showing good or bad use of Bikers; Wyatt does, so I referenced them.

Dashofpepper wrote:Also, your math is incorrect for biker shooting.

Whoops! Thanks! That's embarassing. I'll go back and correct. It does make them substantially better than I said. Thanks for the honesty, too.

Dashofpepper wrote:I'd The players I know and respect feel the same way I do about the ETC to my knowledge from my conversations with them about it - limited as they were because of a general lack of interest in the event among those just mentioned.

Dashofpepper wrote:I respect Matt Cassidy because I've seen him play and played against him. I respect Alex Fennel for much the same reason.

These two quotes of yours are contradictory.

Dashofpepper wrote: I don't know who Wyatt Traina is, I haven't played against him or seen him at any event I've been to, and I travel a *lot*. That doesn't mean I have no respect for him, it means I haven't formed an opinion of him.

Okay. It's not about Wyatt, of couse. I don't know him very well, personally. But he is on the ETC team, did quite well there with Orks, won the Boston Brawl last year with his SW, and has had excellent showings at Adepticon. You haven't played every good player in the country in a single year of hitting what, a half-dozen GTs? Was it even that many? There's still a lot more people to play and tactics to learn.

Dashofpepper wrote: The fact that you think my opinion is rude and ignorant shows how different our mindsets are

You described these events as "a laugh". That came off a bit contemptuous. The fact that you don't think the ETC is competitive does seem pretty ignorant, given the info available about it online. Although I may have access to a little more info than most people, having had the chance to talk about it in some depth with a couple of the US players and one of the UK players, and having a couple of ETC players on my tournament team.

Taking a quick peek at the ToS thread you started over in the Tournament Forum, it appears that Reece, Dave Fay and Ryan Shepard are going. I know Alex F and Matt C have confirmed. Mike Brandt agreed with me on the first page that the event presents a high likelihood of getting multiple games against some of the most competitive players in the country.

Dashofpepper wrote: (reinforced by the fact that you've taken more punitive actions against me than every other moderator on Dakka combined).

You really want to get into that in public? I'm almost certainly the moderator who is most sympathetic toward you, and the most interested in working with you to keep you on the site as a productive member.

To the OP, good luck getting thru all of this!

As you may have determined, there is no set in stone way to play orks. You can make many things work - it depends on your play style, overall skill, and your local meta.

Proxy models and play some games with friends (just not at a GW store) and see what happens.

I'm not sure if an overall tactika will work for orks. Battlewagon rush plays much differently than kan wall for example. So figure out how you enjoy playing, test it out with proxies, and then post some lists. There are many who will gladly help with fine tuning your list and it hopefully will not get derailed into a fight.

Good luck on your waagh!

Thanks Vrakk!

I've been filtering past the arguments and trying to glean some gems.
It's pretty crazy how heated these debates get, huh?

matphat, this debate has good points to it. I wish that folks would leave personal junk out of it, but that's like wishing for money to appear at your whim. =p

Been happy to help you, mostly via PM - let me know if you have any more questions.

Mannahnin, I know you're a fan of line by line debating, and I have no interest in daisychaining you, so just going to point out two things - the mathhammer you did for your bikers makes them worse, not better. Instead of 16 hits, you should have 13, since you're only rerolling misses, not the whole set (which is how you'd get 16).

And your note on my contradictory statements isn't contradictory. Respecting Matt Cassidy isn't the same as talking to him about the ETC. There are two categories of people I'm referencing: Those who I know and respect...and a subcategory of those people titled, "Those I talk to regularly." I've only played and spoken to Matt once.

And as a sidenote....I thought your defense was that Matt Traina was winning GTs with warbiker armies....not just that he is a good GT player. World of difference there.

matphat wrote:Thanks Vrakk!

I've been filtering past the arguments and trying to glean some gems.
It's pretty crazy how heated these debates get, huh?

It just shows how passionate we are!

As to an Ork takkitca... any seasoned Ork player will stress to pick a "theme" and stick with it.

For instance, my ork theme now are the spead freak. Here's my 1850 list:
1 Warboss on bike + PK + cyborked
9 Nobs on bikes (fully diversified with painboy)
4 trukks full of boys with each having a PK nob with BP
2 Green Baron deffkopta (tl rokkits + BS)

Notice the theme? They're all FAST.

Also in a competitive setting, do NOT go all out on bikers... you'll either win big or get Massacred.

I played two tournaments recently with this list (and a similar 2000 point list) and I came in 3rd and 4th in a really tough, competitive group.

It's also how you play your list (Dash's point). When I play the nob bikers... everyone is quaking in their boots and says "that's priority number 1". They can soak in an enormous amount of shots.

But do you know which unit win my games? The regular ork boyz... you see... if you ignore the ork boyz in a trukk zooming to your back line because the nob bikers just have to be dealt with... well... lemme tell ya something... very few units can withstand a trukk full of boyz if they pull off an assault on their unit.

Dashofpepper wrote:Mannahnin, I know you're a fan of line by line debating, and I have no interest in daisychaining you, so just going to point out two things - the mathhammer you did for your bikers makes them worse, not better. Instead of 16 hits, you should have 13, since you're only rerolling misses, not the whole set (which is how you'd get 16).

Thanks for the correction. That being said, my other mistakes were forgetting they're assault 3, and that they're AP5. 36 shots at BS2 = 12 hits the first time, and 24 re-rolls at BS2 = 8 more hits for 20 total, instead of the 16 I had gotten. AP5 is also much nastier against Stealers (as well as other stuff like IG).

Dashofpepper wrote:And your note on my contradictory statements isn't contradictory. Respecting Matt Cassidy isn't the same as talking to him about the ETC. There are two categories of people I'm referencing: Those who I know and respect...and a subcategory of those people titled, "Those I talk to regularly." I've only played and spoken to Matt once.

Okay, cool. I was pointing out that guys you've publicly said you respect for their tactical acumen have expressed very different opinions about the ETC.

Dashofpepper wrote:And as a sidenote....I thought your defense was that Matt Traina was winning GTs with warbiker armies....not just that he is a good GT player. World of difference there.

Absolutely. Nowhere did I say that Wyatt's winning GTs with armies centered around warbikers. I actually was really clear about that in my post on page 2, differentiating Striderx's contention from mine. Wyatt's a GT winner, and plays Orks, and did really well at ETC using an Ork army featuring a unit of a dozen warbikers. IIRC you got your Best General with Dark Eldar, right?

Yes, that's correct. Oldest codex in 40k brought in my golden ticket. Oldest codex no more. :( I preferred the old one. At least there my wyches could potentially assault 12", Lelith wasn't garbage, and neither were disintegrators.

Yeah, the old DE codex had some nasty, nasty stuff. I miss the old combat drugs, for one (I miss the Slaaneshi combat drugs in the old chaos dex too, for that matter).

Ah well, out with the old, in with the new! Especially with all the nice new models.

Anyway, the reason I mentioned it is just because you're a respected Ork player, who's done well in big events with them, but actually got your biggest finish with another codex. Similarly, Wyatt has done well with his Orks, but got his GT win with another codex. I also remember a conversation Cassidy and I had as I was picking him up in Boston (where he had been hanging out with Wyatt and playing some games) to carpool down to the Ard Boys final last year; and Cassidy was talking about how good warbikers are, which was fresh on his mind from a game with Wyatt. I genuinely do think they can be darn good. Part of it may just be that they need to be used in particular ways, or in the context of a certain kind of list, and I suspect that you just may not have tried out the right combination yet.

Dashofpepper wrote:Geneal_Chaos: I'm not going to spend two paragraphs telling you how I pioneered a new wave of Ork tactics and spew out my own awesomeness. Instead, I'll tell you this: If you feel one way about the validity of claiming something to be competitive that I disagree with, the best way to settle it is over a 40k game, preferably with stakes. Bring forth your wallet and your warbikers. Either meet me on Vassal or meet me at one of the GTs this year for a pre-GT challenge, and I'll be happy to table you and take your money.

YOU pioneered a new wave of Ork Tactics. That's right nobody thought to use battlewagons before you graced the world of 40k...wow your ego is astonishing. I am out of here before this thread gets locked...

General_Chaos wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Geneal_Chaos: I'm not going to spend two paragraphs telling you how I pioneered a new wave of Ork tactics and spew out my own awesomeness. Instead, I'll tell you this: If you feel one way about the validity of claiming something to be competitive that I disagree with, the best way to settle it is over a 40k game, preferably with stakes. Bring forth your wallet and your warbikers. Either meet me on Vassal or meet me at one of the GTs this year for a pre-GT challenge, and I'll be happy to table you and take your money.

YOU pioneered a new wave of Ork Tactics. That's right nobody thought to use battlewagons before you graced the world of 40k...wow your ego is astonishing. I am out of here before this thread gets locked...

If you think I'm talking about the use of battlewagons, I'm comfortable that you've no idea what you're talking about.

I think it may be time for a new community taktika to be written.

As an Ork player I fancied a mixed biker army surrounding a Wazdakka, a Warboss on bike, Two nob biker squads, supplemented by deffkoptas and lootas with x number of mixed trunk boys and biker boys to present confusing target priority. Heavy slot would go to rokkit Kanz.

Shot idea down as too clanky. Went with battlewagons.

Dashofpepper wrote:Strider, I'm going to stop responding to you because you don't seem to read what I write. For the last time, Stelek doesn't play Orks. Stelek doesn't play Orks. STELEK DOES NOT PLAY ORKS.

Stelek does play orks, and HAS an ork army/ ork models. So seriously, don't CAPS and assume you just said a fact. You got your fact wrong.

Stelek plays ork. I don't understand why you are finding excuse not to play him again. You make me feel that you are seeking someone less tactically sound to prove your point, and you know Stelek isn't the best candidate for that.

Dashofpepper wrote:

General_Chaos wrote:YOU pioneered a new wave of Ork Tactics. That's right nobody thought to use battlewagons before you graced the world of 40k...wow your ego is astonishing. I am out of here before this thread gets locked...

If you think I'm talking about the use of battlewagons, I'm comfortable that you've no idea what you're talking about.

I agree with General_Chaos. I seriously don't know what you have pioneered. I mean I really DON'T know, and I can bet the majority here don't know as well

Dashofpepper wrote: Man up and meet me across a table.

Sure. Fly here and I ll play you ANYTIME. But don't give me EVADING THE SWEAR FILTER TO POST PROFANITY IS A VIOLATION OF DAKKA RULES about paying for your airfare, asking me to fly over, whatever. If you propose that we play, I welcome you here ANYTIME. Otherwise, your best choice is to play Stelek (provided he doesnt scare you away, of course, especially after you played him at the Nova Open).

So, I've actually been thinking about this topic, and it seems that bikers have a pretty solid niche: taking out small or non-HtH units anywhere on the board.

It seems that with decent LD, annoying durabiliyt, and immense speed, things like Long Fangs, enemy bikers, broadsides, etc. all have a pretty short lifespan. Plus, anything that shoots the bikes is ignoring the more powerful units following.

Ironically, in a pure mech environment, I think the bikes could pick their targets easier, and worry less about enemy shooting. Against IG gunlines, they become target #1...

striderx wrote:

Sure. Fly here and I ll play you ANYTIME.

Sounds like a spectated Vassal game is in order. Are you familiar with the program?

Polonius wrote:So, I've actually been thinking about this topic, and it seems that bikers have a pretty solid niche: taking out small or non-HtH units anywhere on the board.

It seems that with decent LD, annoying durabiliyt, and immense speed, things like Long Fangs, enemy bikers, broadsides, etc. all have a pretty short lifespan. Plus, anything that shoots the bikes is ignoring the more powerful units following.

Ironically, in a pure mech environment, I think the bikes could pick their targets easier, and worry less about enemy shooting. Against IG gunlines, they become target #1...

Yup... since the meta is usually very mechanized, bikers sometime isn't effective...

But the warbikers are more than just fast, mobile str 5 ap 5 shooting platform... I also use them to "escort" my trukks to their target. That's how I'm usually able to take out a gun line IG or Tau army, because my opponent are either shooting at the bikers (4+ cover/armour saves) or they're shooting at my trukks (which flatted out or biker is screen them for 4+ cover).

The dakkaguns can stun/shaken rinos/razorback spams... they're quite effective against DE Raiders/Ravagers (but then, the squaddies will get gak'ed later with mass splinter shots )

Even to normal space marine squads, bikers can wipe them out (loads of shots and in HtH, they're tough 5!).

Are bikers the most effective Ork unit in a competitive list? Not really... but can it work competitively... sure. But it sure is fun playing them!

So... in short... try 'em out. You may like 'em.

Vassal sounds cool. Can anyone PM me about it?

striderx wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Strider, I'm going to stop responding to you because you don't seem to read what I write. For the last time, Stelek doesn't play Orks. Stelek doesn't play Orks. STELEK DOES NOT PLAY ORKS.

Stelek does play orks, and HAS an ork army/ ork models. So seriously, don't CAPS and assume you just said a fact. You got your fact wrong.

Stelek plays ork. I don't understand why you are finding excuse not to play him again. You make me feel that you are seeking someone less tactically sound to prove your point, and you know Stelek isn't the best candidate for that.

Dashofpepper wrote:

General_Chaos wrote:YOU pioneered a new wave of Ork Tactics. That's right nobody thought to use battlewagons before you graced the world of 40k...wow your ego is astonishing. I am out of here before this thread gets locked...

If you think I'm talking about the use of battlewagons, I'm comfortable that you've no idea what you're talking about.

I agree with General_Chaos. I seriously don't know what you have pioneered. I mean I really DON'T know, and I can bet the majority here don't know as well

Dashofpepper wrote: Man up and meet me across a table.

Sure. Fly here and I ll play you ANYTIME. But don't give me EVADING THE SWEAR FILTER TO POST PROFANITY IS A VIOLATION OF DAKKA RULES about paying for your airfare, asking me to fly over, whatever. If you propose that we play, I welcome you here ANYTIME. Otherwise, your best choice is to play Stelek (provided he doesnt scare you away, of course, especially after you played him at the Nova Open).

Do you think Stelek would play his Ork list against Dash? I'd love to see that.

Dash, I'm curious, do you feel the same about Nob Bikers?

Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:Dash, I'm curious, do you feel the same about Nob Bikers?

No, I think Nob bikers are fine. I think that they are a dangerous unit to both field and play against. Taking nobs is always a fine line to walk between gaining ability and sacrificing too many points. I use Nobs in a battlewagon because I ultimately feel that they're better - instead of a 4+ cover save with a 4+ Feel no pain....they are not getting shot at in a battlewagon, for 25 points less per nob.

I think that two units of 10 nob bikers led by a warboss each is probably a bit excessive - the last time I ran into one of those, Ghazghkull ate one unit and my burnas did a pretty good job on the other one, although they didn't wipe the unit - but they did a ton of wounds so finishing them was easy enough. You'll see a lot of advocacy for using demolishers and vindicators and STR 8-10 blasts to deal with them. Assaults work just fine too if you have an equally deadly assault unit.

I think that the proper role for Nob bikers is in units of 3-4, with a powerklaw or two, running around the board smacking on tanks and tying up shooting units. I'd like to say dealing with MCs as well, but my invulnerable saves are never that hot when I play Orks.

I'm also always worried about tables with multi-level terrain as well, with nob bikers.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:Dash, I'm curious, do you feel the same about Nob Bikers?

No, I think Nob bikers are fine. I think that they are a dangerous unit to both field and play against. Taking nobs is always a fine line to walk between gaining ability and sacrificing too many points. I use Nobs in a battlewagon because I ultimately feel that they're better - instead of a 4+ cover save with a 4+ Feel no pain....they are not getting shot at in a battlewagon, for 25 points less per nob.

I think that two units of 10 nob bikers led by a warboss each is probably a bit excessive - the last time I ran into one of those, Ghazghkull ate one unit and my burnas did a pretty good job on the other one, although they didn't wipe the unit - but they did a ton of wounds so finishing them was easy enough. You'll see a lot of advocacy for using demolishers and vindicators and STR 8-10 blasts to deal with them. Assaults work just fine too if you have an equally deadly assault unit.

I think that the proper role for Nob bikers is in units of 3-4, with a powerklaw or two, running around the board smacking on tanks and tying up shooting units. I'd like to say dealing with MCs as well, but my invulnerable saves are never that hot when I play Orks.

In my 1850 list above, I played against good BA list with 3 las preds and mass number of razor backs.. I got first turn... My deffkopta stunned the flamer tank (don't know its name) and immoblized a razorback.
the Nob bikers flatted out towards the las Preds. On the BA turn, of course he shot the hell out of my nobs... in which he only killed one nob from the las preds and dealt 3 wound to other bikers.

By second turn, I was able to multi assault all 3 of his las Preds either wrecking them or stunning them.

All this time... my 4 trukk boyz are getting in position to either claim objectives, or assault the other razor backs.

If I hadn't had an "OMG, I must take care of his Nob bikers", then my trukk boyz wouldn't get to his back line. And... I really like the trukks...

As for multi level terrain... that's why I have boyz... I've played a mostly biker list before, but my oppoent would place his objectives on 3rd floor ruins or major terrain... tehn only my deffkopta or kommandos could safely get in. So not only you need to build your list to "fit your style", but you also need to think what shenaigan (the meta) you opponent will pull on you.