Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yeah I think the review is too critical or warbikes and burnas which imo I always take one or the other (if not both in my army.)

Like the codex says its best to treat orks like a klan. Go for speed, numbers, or dakka as you personally desire and things work out usually.

As far as all the yipping going back and forth, I agree with Dash. Settle it in a game. Face to face if you can, if not, Vassal. I'd pay to see it, actually.

I am a bit pessimistic about bikers, but someone using them effectively may make me a believer. When I look at the list and think about playing against them, I don't wet myself. I think 'free KP'.

I would also like someone to make me a believer or disprove himself trying.

I'm dying to see Vassal.

bucheonman wrote:As far as all the yipping going back and forth, I agree with Dash. Settle it in a game. Face to face if you can, if not, Vassal. I'd pay to see it, actually.

Well, then let us all know how much you are willing to pay.
I may buy a new com just to earn your money.

striderx wrote:

bucheonman wrote:As far as all the yipping going back and forth, I agree with Dash. Settle it in a game. Face to face if you can, if not, Vassal. I'd pay to see it, actually.

Well, then let us all know how much you are willing to pay.
I may buy a new com just to earn your money.

Why don't you borrow a friend's computer for a couple hours then? You said that your computer can't handle vassal - I have a pentium 4 laptop circa 2001 amongst my laptops, and even it can handle Vassal; certainly you know someone that would let you hang out for a couple hours to play a vassal game. 40k buddies? Anything?

Vassal really isn't a good test.

It removes the 3-dimensional aspect of the game which makes testing units on it rather pointless.

I suppose the mature thing to do would be agree to disagree and everyone get on with their lives.

taht's not why a game is pointless. It's pointless because one game can't possibly show the over all value of a unit, especially if you go in knowing that a unit has dramtically different effects on different army types.

Instead, what makes more sense is to analyze your current army, look at it's strengths and weaknesses, and then determine if any given unit will make your army better, in the context of how you play the game, what amries you play against, etc.

That's why I don't feel that conlusory statements (XXX sucks, YYY is awesome) are as valuable as people make them out to be. Instead, explaining what unit's strengths and weakness are (and not just superficially), compared to it's cost (in terms of points, available slots, etc) can allow a person to determine, based on what they need, the final value of a unit in their army.

Classic example is IG. Look at the Vendetta and Stormtroopers. One is considered one of the best units in 40k, and one is seen as overpriced junk. Now imagine that you play a footslogging gunline. How good is a vendetta? How valuable are two deep striking melta guns? I know which I would rather have.

Polonius wrote:taht's not why a game is pointless.

Surely it goes without saying that there are myriad reasons why it is pointless?

We're not making an exhaustive list here.

Ahh, but from a peen measuring perspective, one battle is invaluable.

Not so with warbikers. I say that they are a terrible expenditure of points not from the vantage point of one army....

But from EVERY army I would ever play, every list I would ever play, and against anyone at all who would use a warbiker army, across an infinite series of games.

Yes, a bold statement: I don't believe I would ever lose a game against a warbiker army, regardless of what I'm fielding against it - that's how much I think warbikers are underwhelming and overcosted.

Wow. Extreme hyperbole.

Dashofpepper wrote:Not so with warbikers. I say that they are a terrible expenditure of points not from the vantage point of one army....

But from EVERY army I would ever play, every list I would ever play, and against anyone at all who would use a warbiker army, across an infinite series of games.

Yes, a bold statement: I don't believe I would ever lose a game against a warbiker army, regardless of what I'm fielding against it - that's how much I think warbikers are underwhelming and overcosted.

I bolded the key words. No offense Dash, but you dont' play every army. Different armies are going to be more or less worried about warbikers.

You've also repeatedly stated that you rarely lose to mechanized IG, which makes the "if I don't lose to it, it must be terrible" test lack in specificity. In fact, if you're as good a player as you contend, than it rarely matters what your opponent fields.

Dashofpepper wrote:Not so with warbikers. I say that they are a terrible expenditure of points not from the vantage point of one army....

But from EVERY army I would ever play, every list I would ever play, and against anyone at all who would use a warbiker army, across an infinite series of games.

Yes, a bold statement: I don't believe I would ever lose a game against a warbiker army, regardless of what I'm fielding against it - that's how much I think warbikers are underwhelming and overcosted.

I thinkk you don't like them so much that you've not tested them yourself. I dare you DashOfPepper to make a competitive ork army using warbikers in both minor and major amounts, and test run it. Then come back and tell us how terrible they really are Otherwise, yeah we can argue every single day about this matter.

Warbikers have a 4+ cover save. 24 of them will last longer than 3 Battlewagons in this mech heavy environment, that's for sure. Using Warbikers without Wazdakka is bad, but when they are troops, they gain some use. If you have enough Lootas/Kannon/Warbuggies/Deffkoptas to take out vehicles, Warbikers can be very deadly against infantry that can't catch up to them, and lotas of TL Dakkaguns will cause lots of damage to infantry.

The also have the best anti tank you can get in troops for Orks, a Power Klaw that can go fast. I think they are better than boys honestly. Boys have to pay extra to get a Battlewagon, which also takes up a heavy slot. Trukks are so fragile, that the Bike surpass them in terms of toughness.

They are not the best, but they are more useful than boys in almost any situation.

Dashofpepper wrote:Not so with warbikers. I say that they are a terrible expenditure of points not from the vantage point of one army....

But from EVERY army I would ever play, every list I would ever play, and against anyone at all who would use a warbiker army, across an infinite series of games.

Yes, a bold statement: I don't believe I would ever lose a game against a warbiker army, regardless of what I'm fielding against it - that's how much I think warbikers are underwhelming and overcosted.

Alright, we're on. You'll be fielding an army entirely of Grots with a Warboss, I'll play the Warbikers army.
Put your money where your mouth is, and let's Vassal it up!

I was going to say unupgraded Tac squads with an un-upgraded captain.

pretre wrote:I was going to say unupgraded Tac squads with an un-upgraded captain.

Oh no! There is far worse out there!
Daemon Furies
Tau Vespid
Imperial Guard Ogryn (yes, that's right. 30 Ogryn, with no extras, will cost you 1,200 points.)
and the list goes on.

Che-Vito wrote:

pretre wrote:I was going to say unupgraded Tac squads with an un-upgraded captain.

Oh no! There is far worse out there!
Daemon Furies
Tau Vespid
Imperial Guard Ogryn (yes, that's right. 30 Ogryn, with no extras, will cost you 1,200 points.)
and the list goes on.

I think Ogryn might be better than just Tac squads though. Mine is simple, yet elegant.

Mine only comes out to 1020 points for 60 Tac Marines though. :(
Have to add another 3 Dev Squads without HW, maybe some rhinos.

Juvieus Kaine wrote:I thinkk you don't like them so much that you've not tested them yourself. I dare you DashOfPepper to make a competitive ork army using warbikers in both minor and major amounts, and test run it. Then come back and tell us how terrible they really are Otherwise, yeah we can argue every single day about this matter.

I have tested them. In fact, I have 11 warbikers, a warbiker nob and a Wazdakka that I custom built out of an AoBR warboss, a biker boy, and utilizing Tau burst cannons to make my deffguns.

Compared to what other things in the codex can do along the same lines for less points or more effectiveness.....bikers are simply not worth it. Ever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Che-Vito wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Not so with warbikers. I say that they are a terrible expenditure of points not from the vantage point of one army....

But from EVERY army I would ever play, every list I would ever play, and against anyone at all who would use a warbiker army, across an infinite series of games.

Yes, a bold statement: I don't believe I would ever lose a game against a warbiker army, regardless of what I'm fielding against it - that's how much I think warbikers are underwhelming and overcosted.

Alright, we're on. You'll be fielding an army entirely of Grots with a Warboss, I'll play the Warbikers army.
Put your money where your mouth is, and let's Vassal it up!

You and I are supposed to already have a Vassal game rearing to go. And....I didn't say any army that could potentially be created out of a codex, I said any army that I would ever play. I've got Orks, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Vanilla Marines.

I think we are clear on your position at this point. In fact, there is no doubt that I know your position on warbikers.

Chance of anyone changing Dash's mind? 0
Chance of discussion being over? 100

Let's talk about puppies now!

Edit:
This discussion ends at step 1:
http://unrforliberty.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Our-Discussion.jpg

As I've said...my mind can be changed through demonstration.

From my experience playing with and against warbikers, if I see a warbiker army across the table from me, I expect to table my opponent with little effort.

Someone taking a warbiker army and beating me would *seriously* cause me to reconsider their utility. Thus....me asking someone to attempt to do so. I'm willing to consider the idea that there is something I haven't thought of before, but there's nothing in this thread that falls into that category regarding warbikers.

Right, but this is a discussion board, where we discuss ideas.

If every discussion ends with 'My mind is set until you play a game against me and show me empirical evidence of the validity of your point', it is going to lead to a lot of really boring discussions.

It is the equivalent of going to YMDC and saying that I won't accept any argument that does not involve you personally flying to oregon and showing me the rulebook or getting on a skype call and holding it up in front of the camera. Doesn't really help the discussion.

pretre wrote:Right, but this is a discussion board, where we discuss ideas.

If every discussion ends with 'My mind is set until you play a game against me and show me empirical evidence of the validity of your point', it is going to lead to a lot of really boring discussions.

It is the equivalent of going to YMDC and saying that I won't accept any argument that does not involve you personally flying to oregon and showing me the rulebook or getting on a skype call and holding it up in front of the camera. Doesn't really help the discussion.

This is a *TACTICS* discussion board. Where we attempt to help people improve their tactics. Words need not be the limiting mechanism to do so. If I can demonstrate to someone who is a firm believer in warbikers that they are ultimately ineffective against a variety of both competitive and uncompetitive armies, I expect them to reconsider their position - at which point I've helped improve someone's tactical prowess. Either that, or I'll learn something, and improve my tactical prowess.

Its a win/win either way, with additional measures of win scooped in due to being an opportunity to roll dice instead of type words.

Dashofpepper wrote:
This is a *TACTICS* discussion board. Where we attempt to help people improve their tactics. Words need not be the limiting mechanism to do so. If I can demonstrate to someone who is a firm believer in warbikers that they are ultimately ineffective against a variety of both competitive and uncompetitive armies, I expect them to reconsider their position - at which point I've helped improve someone's tactical prowess. Either that, or I'll learn something, and improve my tactical prowess.

Its a win/win either way, with additional measures of win scooped in due to being an opportunity to roll dice instead of type words.

Let me demonstrate the tactic you are using.

I refuse to acknowledge that this is a tactics discussion board and that we can use alternate mechanisms until you come to Oregon and show me on a computer where it says that. Alternatively, we could use some sort of proprietary program to share desktops so that I can be shown this directly.

At some point, however, by only relying on demonstration you basically hold all other experiences other than your own to be without any value. Now, we all rely more on our own experience more than second hand reports, but when you say that nobody anything can report could change your mind, you're basically announcing that you find all other experiences to be without value. That's somewhat presumptious.

It also leads quickly to the logical conclusion in most people's minds: if the experiences, opinions, and theories of others are without merit, than so is yours. If you can't be persuaded by any words, why do you think it proper to attempt to persuade others?

I prefer playing to posting, but I can post at work, but I can't play. So, I talk.

I also think, from the perspective of teaching tactics and unit analysis to others, you're doing a disservice by being so sweeping. Rather than encouraging people to think critically about a unit by dong so yourself, you seem to encourage blind faith.

I don't think you mean to do that, but, and I phrase this delicately, your words are often misinterpreted by others.

I have been playin 40k since i was 12 am 25 now so i'd like to think im pretty experienced at the game, old warbikers were ok, not what i used or thought were usefull but they were ok. 5th edition warbikers are imo a complete waste of time, i have 3 in 5000 pts army that are there to turbo boost as close to the enemy as possible and hopefully buy time for the rest of my army to get there n smash stuff same goes for deffkopters only they may kill a vehicle easier. PTS wise biker nozs are as bad as flash sh.... ahem flash gitz, which are THE worst unit in the dex (if not game lol). so i go to agree on the side of them being a waste of pts. the ony reason i got them and include them in my army was i wanted to paint em and i was a few pts off 5k.

As for stormboyz.....i love em, specially with zagy not the best unit by far but i like em and i like using em, plus the models kick arse lol. If used with kommandos they can be effective, specially against shooty/weak stuff thats going to bug you.

Stormboyz in a green mob environment do fit a role. Yes they are twice as costly as another ork but they are fast (read a scary threat to your opponent) and if you think of the cost of 20 boyz in a battlewagon - using up a heavy slot in the process - or 20 stormboyz they do have their uses. Sure they may not kill any more than 30 boyz on foot do but then again the point of the stormboyz is actually getting a full mob of 30 into contact with the enemy instead of shot up on the way there. So you overwhelm an enemy with 20 storm boyz and they get shot up and reduced to ineffectiveness but then your 20 boyz hit him intact. Also you did not get forced into fielding a 90+ point battlewagon to get them there intact an so field say 3 killa cans or a dreadnought instead.

I disagree with you Dash. Like you, I actually play orks. I've placed in the top ten of major events using orks in each of the the last three years, as well as winning the Chicago club circuit with them, and winning the points chase for this year's circuit playing predominantly orks (I think I brought out eldar once).

Unlike you, I've done it with completely different armies each time. I've won with green tide. I've won with kanwall, I've won with battlewagon bash, and I've won with hybrids.

I've also lost, also with completely different armies. My all-shooty footslogger list didn't do so hot. But, I experiment. I prefer the experience to the win and rarely bring what is optimal, in favour of bringing what I feel like.

I don't say this to brag, simply to get past the obligatory 'are you any good' and 'you don't even play orks' comments. Yes, I'm good, no I'm not hyper competitive enough to stick with one thing (or even playtest), and yes I play orks.


Like the new improved cookie monster would say, warbikers are a sometimes food. They're not as good as they used to be - in the old codex, I frequently played all bikers because they could shoot in the first round of combat and were fearless. Now - well, they're still not awful in combat, and their shooting pre-charge is fairly impressive. Their leadership is a big drawback, and one that pretty much forces you to move up the field early to lessen the risk should you fail a test.

But, if you can pass those Ld tests, they're a lot more resilient than most people expect. And, they're seriously mobile. Reserving battlewagons is often a risky move - if you get one without the mek, you're in trouble. Kanwalls and green tide armies have problems in Dawn of War, and also don't like to be reserved. Bikers - an all biker army can play the reserve game. It can avoid the alpha-strike army. It can wait out a daemon army. It's got tactical possibilities beyond charge.

No, they're not the optimal unit in the codex. But, they're certainly not useless. They may not be a steal, but I don't think they're overpriced. If the bar you're raising is that anything that's not underpriced is worthless, well, I guess that's the ultra-competitive game talking again. But that's not how I approach the game. I'm going to take a wazdakka army to Adepticon in a month or so, and I guess we'll see what happens.

...and in the distance, I could faintly hear a mighty chorus calling "WAAAAAAGH!"

Heffling wrote:
3 Warbikers, 140 pts
1 Biker Nob (Bosspole; Power Klaw)
3 Warbikers, 140 pts
1 Biker Nob (Bosspole; Power Klaw)
3 Warbikers, 140 pts
1 Biker Nob (Bosspole; Power Klaw)
3 Warbikers, 140 pts
1 Biker Nob (Bosspole; Power Klaw)
3 Warbikers, 140 pts
1 Biker Nob (Bosspole; Power Klaw)
3 Warbikers, 135 pts

1 Biker Nob (Power Klaw)So, you've got 9-10 fast moving elements, and some gun support. Personally, I would have dropped the extra warbiker in each squad and have added more lootas, but that's my style.

What do we have on the board? A lot of T5 bikes and jetbikes who will always have a 4+ cover. A lot of lootas at T4, who are probably getting a 4+ cover, and 9 Kannons.

I dont know. You've got sqauds of 3 bikes- one being a nob for 140pts. For 7 points more you get 12 guys in a trukk with the same Nob load out. Anda bit faster.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dashofpepper wrote:My willingness to consider something I don't believe works requires demonstration. You don't buy a gun without making sure it fires, and you don't buy into a philosophy being claimed as successful without seeing it in action. Is it so strange that I'm asking for a demonstration of the capabilities of something I believe to be inferior?

Here's the problem:

Your unwilling to accept other people's demonstrations, suggestions and experiences, such as Wyatt's, who has won, without them playing you with warbikes. But we're suppose to accept YOUR experiences, without question. But we dont have to play you to accept them. Now granted you'll play anyone in vassal, but still.

Doesnt quite jive. Its strange that you dont accept others experience and you question it, but we're to accept yours.