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So your argument is that FotD has a range, which is 12", and has multiple targets within that range? Sounds fair to me.
Provided, of course, you are consistent with that definition, and require the Librarian to have LOS to all his targets.

Except that it specifically breaks those rules. Just like FotA. Heh, the other specifically mentioned rules that you must follow when doing Psychic Powers is that you can only target one unit... and this obviously breaks that rule as well. Which is why you apply the Shooting Rules when you can for each step in each power - and ignore them when the power obviously doesn't follow them.

I suppose it's better than inventing new game terms like "area of effect".

that is different than this situation given that if the range was zero, you couldn't even activate FOD because no enemy models are in the 0" range to declare the power being used on if you were to compare it to a shooting weapon.

That would only be true if you believe that enemy units are the targets of FoD. If there is no target, or the target is the Librarian, then he can always cast FoD, and it still has an area of effect, but no range.

I don't actually have a particular opinion one way or another - I am happy for someone to prove that there is a range, or that there is not a range. I am only trying to define terms so that there can be some sort of intelligent discussion.

Heh, the other specifically mentioned rules that you must follow when doing Psychic Powers is that you can only target one unit... and this obviously breaks that rule as well.

Absolutely it does. If you believe that the target(s) of FoD are all enemy units within range, then it clearly breaks the rule of only targetting one enemy unit. However, I don't see any mention of it also breaking the rule of having LOS to your target.

However, I don't see any mention of it also breaking the rule of having LOS to your target.

"Every enemy unit within 12"..."
'Every' excepts it from the rule. Just as it does with FotA.

Me finding this came about when I was thinking about the argument about bolters rapid firing. You can only target units within 12", but (As decided here) that 12" wasn't the actual range, as range was a game term and the 12" wasn't specifically called range, so casaulties could be removed to the full 24" range of the gun.

This power combination has the same issue with it. The 12" isn't actually labeled range.

And thank you Oaka and Relic for putting the argument in much better terms than I can. I don't have much of a way with words. Don't mind Ghaz and H... They just have an irrational need to argue with me regardless of the issue.

So if 12" is the range, does that make the following scenario possible?

1) Cast FoTD, no models within 12"
2) On your opponent's subsequent assault phase (same turn) librarian gets assaulted. Can he then use his Force Weapon?

Also seems to me that the burden of proof here is pretty clearly on HBMC/Ghaz/the others who agree with him.

The 12" distance discussed in FoTD is not called a range. Their position infers that this is actually a range. They should have to demonstrate why this inference is correct, and IMO haven't done so at all. The best they've managed is, summarized, "of course it's range you nub"

"Every enemy unit within 12"..."
'Every' excepts it from the rule. Just as it does with FotA.

Not quite accurate - the question with Fury is whether it targets the board edge, or nothing at all. There's no question as to whether it targets all units along that line.

Your argument is not quite sound - here's why. By the Shooting Rules:

P1. You can select any enemy unit as a target. (p19) It goes on to mention, on this page, that you may have to make a Leadership check if you wish to select a unit other than the closest one - that is not relevant here.

P2. You cannot select a unit as a target if you do not have Line of Sight to it. (p20) This is a corollary rule to the first premise - if you cannot draw LOS, you cannot have it as a target.

P3. Once you have chosen a target, you measure range to it. (p22) This is the most pertinent part to this thread - it defines range as a term in the shooting rules, as something that separates a model and its target, up to the maximum range of the weapon.

Now, your statement as to how FotD works is:

P4. Fear of the Darkness allows you to select every enemy unit within 12" as a target. And I have no argument with this as a principle. This is also a clear contradiction to P1, above, and since this is the more specific rule, it applies for Fear of the Darkness. However, it does not also contradict the corollary rule (P2) - without a specific exception to the general rule of LOS, there is no reason to assume that FotD allows you to select targets that you do not have LOS to.

Consider the situation of a unit that cannot draw LOS to any enemy unit. This unit cannot select a target, by the premises listed above. Your argument, however, would be to say that the rules clearly say I can select an enemy unit as a target, therefore I must be able to select an enemy unit as a target. Even though that unit cannot meet the requirements of LOS, your argument would be that to prevent it from selecting a target would be to break the rules, just as (you say) not allowing FotD to select all enemy units within 12" would be breaking the rules. This is why your argument is unsound.

Now, if FotD has no target, or if the target is the Librarian, then that is another matter. In such a case, the enemy units are not targets of the power, therefore LOS is not required. But then, from what I see, the power also has no range, since the rules only tell us how to measure range to a target. It would still affect all enemies within 12", but that 12" would not be defined as the range of the power.

Then by your reasoning, Vortex of Doom has no range either.

Then by your reasoning, Vortex of Doom has no range either.

Why would you say that? It has a target, and a maximum distance at which it can affect that target - seems to meet all the criteria of range.

Because it doesn't specifically say "range"
Otherwise, the wording between it and FotD are near exact for how to select targets - just that VoD selects 1 and FotD selects every.

Whilst reading this thread for pure sick amusement value, I stumbled on Oaka's comment.

"However, convincing a space marine player who drop-pods Tiggy into my lines and uses FotD that it only has a 12" area of effect will be absolutely impossible to do. But I guess now I have a waterproof justification to award zero sportsmanship and composition points."

I apologise for the personal attack but I am absolutely blown away by the fact that an adult can say this. Further to that I say thank the powers on high that people like you no longer have the power to do that in any competition where it actually counts. (Thanks to the fact that the Yanks now have to play the same game the Poms (and the rest of the world do)).

If you want to give the lowest ranking of 3 categories for sportsmanship- go ahead. I can't stop you. You feel you've been cheated in some way, so fine. But then going ahead and giving 0 for composition based on a difference in opinion of the rules???
I cant actually explain how shocked I am. A teenager- yes. An adult doing this??? Thankfully, as said- in any real GW tourney you'll never ever have the option to do this. Rant over. And apologies for wasting band width on it.

Because it doesn't specifically say "range"
Otherwise, the wording between it and FotD are near exact for how to select targets - just that VoD selects 1 and FotD selects every.

You aren't reading me right - if FotD does target every enemy unit within 12", then I agree that 12" is the range, because range is a term that is defined with respect to a model and its target(s). Similarly, Vortex also clearly has a target, and a maximum distance at which it can affect that target - looks very clearly to be a range.

The question in my mind is whether or not FotD really does target every enemy unit within 12", or if it has no target, or the target is the Librarian itself, and 12" just the radius in which the power takes effect. I do not currently have a personal position as to whether or not FotD targets enemy units or has no target at all - that opinion is what I would like to see presented and defended in this thread.

You have a position - you say that FotD does target enemy units. That's fine with me. All I have to say on that is that if you do treat FotD as targetting enemy units, then to be consistent you must follow the rules for targets, which say that you must have LOS to those targets.

Had to add my two cents to this.The Psychic powers rules state that psychic powers and I quote "Unless specified otherwise, psychic abilities are subject to the usual shooting rules, so the psker must be able to see the target, all the attacks must be directed against a single target unit, etc." end quote

The characters Rules state and I quote "Characters function in the same manner as normal troopers during the shooting phase, though they will often have abilities superior to the press of men around them." end quote. I'd say this is one of those cases.

The psychic power F.O.T.D does not state anything specail about line of sight so by this agrument they would have to be in L.O.S, it does however state that all units as opposed to one unit are affected so I'd say that is not going against the shooting process 'choose a target' he is still choosing a traget it's just that he gets to choose more than one. It aslo states and I quote yet again" all normal modifiers and/or exceptions apply", If used in this way I'd say the "area of affect/range" is doubled. 12" becomes 24"

If on the other hand you argue that it doesn't need line of sight because the psychic power doesn't say it needs L.O.S, because it affects 'all' units then you are not following the rules for firing a weapon (and in my opinion psychic powers) and can't then double its "area of affect/range"

P.S. I think the FAQ below shows that just becasue they didn't state range in F.O.T.D does not mean it was not inferred.

Ow and from the GW FAQ's
[40k] Rapid Fire and Casualties - MOD-Jhorred(Jeff)
Replies [0]. This Reply Posted [4/12/2005 9:19].

From Pete Haines through Tim:

Got a reply from Pete on it, and yes you must remove casualties from within the range of the weapon. Rapid Firing means you have a 12? range, and thus casualties must come from within 12 inches.

?The answer is that models in range and arc must be removed a la page 26. When bolters fire twice their range is 12" so only models within 12" can be removed.?

Jeff

Posted By Red on 02/21/2006 6:17 AM
P.S. I think the FAQ below shows that just becasue they didn't state range in F.O.T.D does not mean it was not inferred.
......
From Pete Haines through Tim:
......

Please don't post these "FAQs". They are meaningless drivel until posted as a PDF FAQ on the GW site. Until then, it is simply some unknown guy's unconfirmed opinion who says that ex-employee Pete said so. You couldn't trade this "info" for sand in the desert.

Well, I'm going to agree with Skyth. Range is a defined game term. Fear doesn't have a range. Only range is doubled.

At best the point is ambiguous (and I don't think it is) which means tiggy's owner must take the more restrictive of the two options.

And I (literally) just finished putting together a tiggy drop pod army.

Guess Tiggy goes back on the shelf.

Good job Skyth.

From Dictionary.com

range Audio pronunciation of "range" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rnj)
n.

1.
1. Extent of perception, knowledge, experience, or ability.
2. The area or sphere in which an activity takes place.
3. The full extent covered: within the range of possibilities.

How is the are of effect not range and how does the fact that Range is a defined game term preclude rules being written using the word range in common parlance?

The FOD Range is its area of effect. Ditto for a Bolter. C'mon people it's english 101.

Posted By Zubbiefish on 02/21/2006 11:30 AM
How is the are of effect not range and how does the fact that Range is a defined game term preclude rules being written using the word range in common parlance?

For the reason that there does exist a game specific definition. Much like Troops and troops. If the game defines a term, then that term must stick to the game defined definition, other wise anarchy ensues. "OOOOHH, I didn't realise they meant Fire in the game sense, and not FIRE!!!! in the chemical reaction sense. Sorry about torching your figs man, honest mistake."

I'm not sure I see your point. Yes, range has more than one meaning. Most words do.

But Range is a defined game term, and Fear lacks the version of "range" that's a defined game term.

 

Okay sorry I wasn't clear.
What I'm wondering is how the defined game term "range" itself causes the broader definition of the word range to cease to apply. Range, as a game term, doen't nescesarily restrict the definition to "the property of a weapon" it is a property of weapons but I don't think that it's exclusive to them.
I see what you mean since Psychic powers follow the shooting rules in as many ways as they can unless there's a specific exemption that if there's no "range" then it can't follow that part and Tiggy only alows for a doubling of "range" the shooting term not any other kind.
I don't agree with that assessment.
Sometimes a word is just a word. Range is, in all cases, used in its common form with the exeption of weapon profiles. FOTD doesn't have a profile or a term "range" so it isn't bound by the specific shooting term "range". Same with Tiggy he doubles the range of psychic powers not the "range" the general term allows for the specific.

Now you'll say, "but the specific overrides the general."
You'll be right and I'll shut up now.

So how is Adepticon going to rule this?  I'd like to know either way because I know there will be all drop-pod armies at the team tournament, and I feel fairly confident there will be at least one team that has 4 Ultra droppods with a Tigurius in there.

- Oaka

Post it over on their boards.

AH-HA! I'm Still wrong!!!!

So if Fear has no range and fear has the same wording as most every other psychic power, like all the Eldar ones, are you telling me the Eldar psychic powers have no range listed and thus the Warlock power, Augment, is completely useless.  That is what some of you are saying when you say since the psychic power FotD says within and not directly 'range' then Eldritch storm, Fortune, Guide, and Mindwar have no range and thus can never be augmented.

 

 

So if Fear has no range and fear has the same wording as most every other psychic power, like all the Eldar ones, are you telling me the Eldar psychic powers have no range listed and thus the Warlock power, Augment, is completely useless. That is what some of you are saying when you say since the psychic power FotD says within and not directly 'range' then Eldritch storm, Fortune, Guide, and Mindwar have no range and thus can never be augmented.

As far as I'm concerned, the term 'range' only has meaning in game terms when used to define a distance between a model and its target, up to the maximum distance it can affect that target at. This is derived from the idea that in the rules, you are only told to measure range to targets - if you're measuring a distance for some other reason, it's still a distance and what you do within that distance can have meaning in the rules, but it's not a 'range' for game purposes.

The Eldar powers all have targets. That target may be a model or your own unit, but they have targets. They have a maximum distance they can affect that target at, and that is therefore a range for game purposes. If you treat FoD as having targets, then it would also have a range, but the general consensus is that the power has no targets, or the target is the librarian itself.

Will a Basilisk have a minimum 'range' since it can place it's blast template anywhere, not targeting anyone or any unit?

PG. 22 in the rulebook says "All weapons havea  maximum effective range that tells you the furthest distance they can shoot."

It then mentions that if a target is out of range the shot fails.  Wouldn't the Fears targets be anything within 12" of the Librarian?

The power Holocaust uses a template as it's are of affect.  If the Fear is considered a template 12" away from the librarian why wouldn't they say to place a 12" template over the librarian?

Is there a case where the range is not mentioned, range as in a weapons profile, for a psychic power and a roll to hit not required? 

Is it possible that in every instance where a psychic power has a weapons normal profile, including the word 'range', that power only works after a roll to hit is made?

Is is possible that every psychic power that does not have a weapon profile, like Fear, Eldritch Storm, Holocaust, etc.. means that it does not require a roll to hit to work? and in fact has a range that can be doubled?

Could it be possible that the rule on page 22 defining range implies that a roll to hit must be made for these weapons and that is why you need to check for distance between the weapon and the unit targeted.  Any weapon that does not specifically target a unit will not require this.

Will a Basilisk have a minimum 'range' since it can place it's blast template anywhere, not targeting anyone or any unit?

But it can't. The rules for barrage weapons say, designate a target unit, and place the template over that, with the centre hole over a model. I don't have a Guard codex with me, but I'm pretty sure the basilisk just says to use the Barrage rules for indirect fire.

It then mentions that if a target is out of range the shot fails.  Wouldn't the Fears targets be anything within 12" of the Librarian?

It could be, if you wanted to define it as that. If it is, however, then you must follow the rules for targets, which say that you must have LOS to all targets of the power.

The power Holocaust uses a template as it's are of affect.  If the Fear is considered a template 12" away from the librarian why wouldn't they say to place a 12" template over the librarian?

Because there's no 12" template.

Could it be possible that the rule on page 22 defining range implies that a roll to hit must be made for these weapons and that is why you need to check for distance between the weapon and the unit targeted.  Any weapon that does not specifically target a unit will not require this.

I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that if a weapon does not roll to hit, it doesn't have a range?

According to Websters:

range ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rnj)
n.

The area or sphere in which an activity takes place.

The maximum extent or distance limiting operation, action, or effectiveness, as of a projectile, aircraft, radio signal, or sound.
The distance between a projectile weapon and its target.

Extraneous refferences deleted.

And this is relevant how?

Range is a defined game term.