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I see alot of people mentioning that Tiggy gives you a 24" radius on fear of the darkness.

However, I noticed that Tiggy doubles the (game term) range on psychic powers, and Fear has no mention of range anywhere, so fear should only be 12" for Tiggy also.

From page 26 of Codex Space Marines:

Every enemy unit witiin 12" of the Librarian...

Sure sounds like a range to me.

Actually, to me it sounds like the range is 0, and it's basically a template.

But if Tiggy can double the area of effect on a fear, then the range on a bolter changes to 12" when it double taps.

Ummm... no. How does that compute? Those two concepts pass like ships in the night. One does not mean the other.

The range of FotD is 12" in all directions; Tigurius doubles that. End of line.

But no where is the game term 'range' mentioned in the fear entry.

It could be equally argued that the range for FoD is 12", or that FoD has no range, but rather an area of effect with a 12" radius. The term 'range' is not clearly defined in the rules.

A strict, logical interpretation of the Shooting rules (which also pertain to psychic powers), would indicate that if you treat the multiple enemy units affected by FoD as all targets of FoD, you are then measuring a 12" range to all of them, which would suggest that 12" is the range, and Tigurius then doubles it to 24". An extension of that, however, is that you are then treating all of them as targets of the power, which means that he must have LOS to all units he is affecting. If you treat FoD as having no target at all, then you are not measuring a range to any target - you could then argue that 12" is not a range, just a radius that defines an area of effect.

There are powers that have a defined 'range' value (The shooting type powers-Smite, etc). Fear is not one of them.

Skyth, 02/18/2006 10:25 PM
Actually, to me it sounds like the range is 0, and it's basically a template

If it was a template, then they'd tell you to use the template. The range is a 12" radius around the Librarian.

Then were does it say range? Range is a game term (See Storm of the Emporer's Wrath). Fear has nothing that is listed as 'range' so Tiggy can't double it.

It's the exact same issue as with bolter's double-tapping. They will target a unit within 12", but the range is NOT 12".

And where does it say that a power's range must be expressed in a profile like a weapon? The range of Fear of the Darkness is a 12" radius from the Librarian.

Prove it then.

Could just as easily say prove it isn't...

What would you call that 12" if it isn't range?

I would say it doubles the area of effect- which is a type of range as far as i can tell

Posted By skyth on 02/19/2006 12:08 PM
Prove it then.

Yes, prove it.  Prove that a range must be expressed in a profile.  Otherwise the power has no range and affects nobody at all and is useless.

Actually, since you are the one that wants to double the 'range' with Tiggy, you are the one that is required to prove that there is a 'range' to double.

And again, we've shown you the range. It is a 12" radius from the Librarian. You've yet to prove that's not the power's range.

Posted By Bignutter on 02/19/2006 12:12 PM
I would say it doubles the area of effect- which is a type of range as far as i can tell

Does that mean that if Tiggy uses Storm of the Emporer's wrath, he uses the large template?

Actually, you are required to prove something, not disprove something, in order to use it.

You keep on saying that the 12" is a 'range' WITHOUT any proof of that.

What would you call that 12" if it isn't range?

I would say it doubles the area of effect- which is a type of range as far as i can tell

If that were the case, you could then argue that Tigurius doubles the size of the Blast Template when he uses Storm of Emperor's Wrath. We know he doesn't, because the area of effect is not the range - they are not equivalent terms.

It doesn't sound like it's a question of proving that range must be expressed in a shooting-type profile or not. It's more a question of whether you consider 12" to be the range of the power, which affects multiple targets, or whether you consider it to be the outer limit of a defined area of effect.

Posted By skyth on 02/19/2006 12:18 PM
Actually, you are required to prove something, not disprove something, in order to use it.

You keep on saying that the 12" is a 'range' WITHOUT any proof of that.

Kind of like the pot calling the kettle black.  So once again, you don't have proof that it is NOT the range.  We can go on with this 'is not, is too' argument all day  You keep on saying that 12" is not a 'range' WITHOUT any proof of that.  If it's not the bloody range of the power, then why not?

The thing is, with the 40k rules, you NEVER have to prove something isn't, only that they are.

From the How to Have an Intelligent Rules Debate post-

'...The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else. '

I actually think Skyth is on to something.  If Tiggy doubles the range of a psychic power, that shouldn't mean he doubles any distance mentioned in any psychic power.  I'm having trouble thinking of other powers that mention a distance and don't refer to it as a range, but here is what I thought of that is a bit of a stretch:

A minor psychic power (can't remember the name of it) allows you to hold a unit back and deploy it after all other units, including infiltrators.  So the deployment zone could be 18" out, and Tiggy doubles the range of the power.  Therefore if you use this psychic power with Tiggy you can deploy your unit 36" away from your board edge right?  I think range needs to be clearly defined in the psychic power if you want to claim that you can double it.  In FotD it isn't clearly defined, so you should err on the side of caution.

- Oaka

The thing is, with the 40k rules, you NEVER have to prove something isn't, only that they are

And again, you have never proven that they ARE anything other than the range.

So, uhh... lemme get this straight, just so we're clear. The 12"... uhh... range of FoD isn't actually a range because FoD doesn't have a range. In stead, and, again, this is just so we're clear, it has a psudeo-template without having a template or mentioning a template in the rules.

Yeah, I'd say this thread is yet another good example of why Skyth's post count is so high.

BYE

12" might be the range of FoD. Or the range might be zero, and 12" nothing more than defining the outer area of effect. That's what it comes down to - does the power have a range, or just an area of effect?

Without a useful definition of the term 'range', this discussion will not advance beyond 'is not-is too'. However, since everyone is so certain of their rightness in this thread, I'm sure people will have no trouble giving a definition of the term 'range' that supports their view.

Let's start with rapid fire targeting within 12" without a 12" Range.

Besides, the onus isn't on me to prove that it isn't range, rather on YOU to prove that it is range.

And HMBC, since you have to resort to ad hominum attacks, I'll take that as you conceeding the argument in my favor.

Besides, the onus isn't on me to prove that it isn't range, rather on YOU to prove that it is range.

Yes it is about you proving that it is not the range of the psychic power. So far you have provided squat to back up your position other than 'I say so'

You want proof that it is the power's range? Fine. The 'range' of a psychic power is the distance at which it is effective. Storm of the Emperor's Wrath is effective against one unit within 12". That is it's 'range'. Fear of the Darkness is effective against any enemy units within 12" of the Librarian. That is it's 'range'. Now either provide something to actually back up your postion other than your lame 'It's not and I don't have to prove it' so-called argument.

To answer for HBMC:

?I was not making fun of you personally; I was heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea -- a practice I shall always follow.? - Lt. Colonel Dubois, Starship Troopers

Range is a game term.

The game term range is not mentioned ANYWHERE in the fear entry.

Your so-called proof is inadequate.

As I am not attempting ANY action, I need to prove nothing. The onus of proof is on the person attempting an action.

This is the EXACT same situation as a marine moving and firing his bolter at something within 12". The weapon can only affect a unit within 12", but the RANGE of the bolter remains 24" and can cause casaulties within 24". Unless something says that it is a RANGE (game term) then it isn't.

It does seem to me that you can't claim that the 12" is a range.

While 'the distance at which it's effective' is a good definition, we don't know that it's the right one. It might well be 'the distance such that if the distance between the firer and the target exceeds it, the weapon/power cannot be used'. You simply don't shoot your guns if you're out of range - you don't even roll to-hit for plasma weapons. However, you're perfectly capable of casting Fear if nothing's around. This at least hints at the Librarian being the target.

Furthermore, when you talk about 'the distance at which it's effective', the question has to be asked: what is the effect? Couldn't we argue that the 'effect' is that everything within 12" of the Librarian gets scared? That is, 'things within 12" getting scared' is just a side effect. It's effective at all ranges, as there doesn't seem to be a target other than the Librarian.

You really do need to prove that the 12" is a range. You're essentially saying that you can take a given number in a weapon/power description, with no demonstrable proof that it's a range (so far anyway), and claim that it's the range.

The game term range is not mentioned ANYWHERE in the fear entry.

And again, so bloody what. Where is it ever mandated that that a psychic power's range must be given in a profile in big bold letters? It's still 'because I said so' with you. Provide any rules that states that if they don't use the word 'range' then it does not have one.