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Again, the rules don't say what isn't...Only what is. How hard is this to understand?

It must be proved that if it doesn't say range that it has one.

I suggest you review the 'How to Have an Intelligent Rules Debate' post again, especially on the "the rules don't say I can't" argument, which is what you are consistently making.

"And HMBC, since you have to resort to ad hominum attacks, I'll take that as you conceeding the argument in my favor."

In order to conceed I'd have to, y'know, actually conceed. All I'm doing is making fun of yet another one of your 'interesting' rules interpretations. Oh, and BTW, it's HBMC, not the other way around. But I 'spose you knew that already...

Furthermore, you kind've have to prove that the 12" range that FoD has isn't a 'range', using the rules, in order to win this argument. Good luck with that.

BYE

If it acts like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

It isn't neccessarily a duck. Just like the 'range' on double-tapping rapid fire weapons.

If it acts like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

Then it's Skyth?

Skyth - Just curious, but, were you absolutley demolished by a FotD Tiggy assault at some point in the past?

If not, where are you going with this?

This is the EXACT same situation as a marine moving and firing his bolter at something within 12". The weapon can only affect a unit within 12", but the RANGE of the bolter remains 24" and can cause casaulties within 24". Unless something says that it is a RANGE (game term) then it isn't.

This is not a definition of range, per se - it is an example that supports your case, but not one that argues from the game rules. This particular example is also one that is a grey area in the rules - while it might be the right interpretation, there's plenty of argument that it's not.

Going back to the basics of Psychic Powers, then:

Psychic powers follow the Shooting Rules unless otherwise specified. Range is a term that has a specific application in the shooting rules. To be specific, range is defined in Step 2 of the Shooting Rules:

Step 1. Select a target.

Step 2. Measure LOS and range to that target.

Range is thusly defined - it is a property of the weapon/power/thing that has an application in the shooting rules, pertaining to the target of the weapon/power/thing. So, then, what is the target(s) of FotD? Is it every enemy unit within 12"? Or is it the Librarian himself, and the power then has an area of effect of 12" around him? If the target(s) is/are every enemy unit within 12", then it can be shown that the power has a range, which is 12", and which Tigurius would then double. If the target is the Librarian, then it can be shown that the power has no range, just an area of effect. So which is it?

The fact that FotD can be cast even with no enemy units to affect might suggest that the target is the Librarian. Then again, that's not necessarily a true statement, just a good basis for argument.

It isn't neccessarily a duck.

And sometimes it is a duck. So far you've yet to provide an iota of proof to back your position other than 'I say so'. That's not going to cut it. And you're argument that I have to 'prove' something while you don't have to 'disprove' something is ludicrous. So far you've either been unwilling, or more likely unable to support your position. So either put up or shut up. Prove that when the rules for Fear Of The Darkness states that every enemy unit "within 12" of the Librarian" must take a Morale check that the 12" is not the range of the power.

"It isn't neccessarily a duck. Just like the 'range' on double-tapping rapid fire weapons."

I think we might have to amend the 'How to have an Intelligent Rules Discussion' to include this, assuming it isn't already there, to say:

When you bring forth an idea it is up to you to prove that idea. It is not sufficient to simply state something and then demant that everyone prove you wrong.

So skyth, are you going to prove what you say, or are you going to subject us to more this "because I say so" crap?

BYE

Hello, the rules are PERMISSIVE...Since I'm not trying to take any action, I don't need ANY proof WHATSOEVER! But like usual, you keep on repeating the same 'The rules doesn't say it isn't' argument and ignoring that.

As Relic has pointed out, the 12" could be a couple things besides range, but you guys seem to just like arguing with me for argument's sake like little children and totally ignoring the actual issue. And this isn't the first time you've done this. Just grow up, will you?

With slight trepidation that I'm simply throwing petrol onto the fire; I think the only rule that's going to clear this one up is The Most Important Rule ? and agree that this is one of those cases where the rules simply don't explain the particular issue completely enough.

Certainly both thesis and antithesis have: 
a) A good basis for argument
and
b) No concrete rules statement to clear up the argument

...to back them up. I'd recommend that one works it out on a game-by-game basis until there's an FAQ or similar.

On a personal level, were I taking Tigurius, I'd go with the 12" 'area-of-effect' argument: purely because it's more likely to result in a fun game for me and my opponent (particularly if my opponent is playing tau! )

When in doubt, the group I play in go for the least powerful option ? it saves a lot of tears!

I feel 100% confident now that 12" isn't the range of the power, that the range is 'self'.  Anytime you measure a range, if you're out of range you automatically miss.  However, the psychic power will still work if there are no enemy units within 12", you can still be hit by the perils of the warp.  In contrast, if a plasma gun is out of range it doesn't have the opportunity to overheat.  This, to me, is clearly a distinction from range. 

However, convincing a space marine player who drop-pods Tiggy into my lines and uses FotD that it only has a 12" area of effect will be absolutely impossible to do.  But I guess now I have a waterproof justification to award zero sportsmanship and composition points.

Good find Skyth, don't mind the others- this can actually change the game in an enormous way.

- Oaka

Posted By skyth on 02/20/2006 3:58 AM
Hello, the rules are PERMISSIVE...Since I'm not trying to take any action, I don't need ANY proof WHATSOEVER! But like usual, you keep on repeating the same 'The rules doesn't say it isn't' argument and ignoring that.

As Relic has pointed out, the 12" could be a couple things besides range, but you guys seem to just like arguing with me for argument's sake like little children and totally ignoring the actual issue. And this isn't the first time you've done this. Just grow up, will you?

Bull.  We've shown you multiple times where it can be considred the power's range.  Now put up or shut up and show us why it's not.  Get your head out of your *donkey* and prove it.

It won't change the game at all Oaka. The vast majority of players don't play it that way and probably won't play it that way. As you said, all it amounts to is a justifaction to dock someone on Sportsmanship for doing something you don't like. You'll never convince them they're playing it wrong.

I haven't seen an argument that conclusively illustrates what we're dealing with in terms of 'range'. For or against. I'm more leaning towards the 12" being the range of the power but there's enough doubt that I can't realy argue for it.
I know that Tiggy's range doubling ablity is way powerful when combined with fear but I'm not sure that there's enough here to say "Ah ha! You've been cheating us all along you filthy Power Armour loving such n' such!"

However, convincing a space marine player who drop-pods Tiggy into my lines and uses FotD that it only has a 12" range will be absolutely impossible to do.

Funny too that you chose to call it range after stating you don't belive it is range...

Agree with Oaka.

The range of FoD is 0" and the area of effect is 12" from the Librarian. Double the range and you still have an area of effect of 12" from Tigerius.

If Tigerius used SoEW (Smite), you would double the range to 24", not double the area of effect by using two blast markers.

Indeed, this is a good catch!
Mike

On a semi-related topic, let's say you can ignore the rules and double the area of effect of FoD:

Current area of effect (assuming you're measuring from the center and not the edge of the base to): 452.16 square inches (pi = 3.14)

Double the AoE (452.16 x 2): 904.32 square inches

Divide by pi (904.32 / 3.14): 288 inches

Take the square root of 288 to get radius of new AoE: 16.97 inches

Rounding up, I would say that an area of effect of 17" is a lot more reasonable for Tigerius.

Mike

I think the Effect is self, with a 12" area of effect is a strong argument. Course I think explaining that and fighting it out in a game would be more work that its worth.

Awful lot of hostility in this thread, and I can't tell why.

Ghaz, HBMC: I see merit in the contention that the range of FotD is 0", as it defines a centerpoint for an effect (namely, the librarian himself). Twice 0" remains 0". Can we get past the unjustified anger, and treat the question a little more seriously?

Think of it this way: if "range" is defined as the distance between a model and its target, what is the target of FotD? Seems like "Self" to me.

however, I can relate this with the "winds of Chaos" psycic power and the spell that doubles psycic power ranges. Now the Winds of Chaos is a power that doesn't have a specific range (given that its a template weapon), but if it doesn't have a specific range in the profile why did it say in the spell's profile that doubles the Psycic power weapon range that it is not available to use it with the Winds of chaos spell? It's a template weapon (area of affect), not a range weapon (ie. 12") but if this description that excluded the winds of chaos from being used wasn't there, it can be assumed that you could use them together.

Here's what I think (and I can see me argueing this myself), Tau players have a huge problem with this Tiggy spell let alone with it being double ranged. If I were a tau player, I would try to fight tooth and nail to get this affect removed from play. However, I would like to see that same tiggy to that to my berserkers.

It's called checks and balences....
(and bad spelling)

however, I can relate this with the "winds of Chaos" psycic power and the spell that doubles psycic power ranges. Now the Winds of Chaos is a power that doesn't have a specific range (given that its a template weapon), but if it doesn't have a specific range in the profile why did it say in the spell's profile that doubles the Psycic power weapon range that it is not available to use it with the Winds of chaos spell? It's a template weapon (area of affect), not a range weapon (ie. 12") but if this description that excluded the winds of chaos from being used wasn't there, it can be assumed that you could use them together.

Which would then create a very difficult rules situation - as in, how do you double the range of a flamer template? It is likely that the designer simply excluded Winds of Chaos to avoid difficult situations. In any case, it's not directly pertinent to this discussion.

I thought this was a discussion about area affect weapons (powers) and range of that weapon (power).

I was told by a friend about this thread, and I have to agree that it seems to me the "range" is 0". It is a self-cast spell that affects the librarian. He can't cast it on something within 12" of him.

The 12" is the area of affect. NOT the range.

Logic would say that the range is 0 and area of effect 12" around.

the problem that I see after that is what do you do with a power that kill model when you have to remove casualties in range and line of sigth. An exemple migth be the new wargear of the tau where a crisis suit explode. If we consider the range to be self. then it will kill nothing because the range is zero. The only way to make those self centered template to work is to have the range of the weapon equal to the area of effect of the weapon as a general rule.

So I would say that range of FOT is 12" but there is another restriction that force you to place the center of the template over the center of the area that is affected.

That is something that should be in the general FAQ for every instance of self centered  template

Just in time for general Adepticon confusion amongst the UltraMarine masses.

This is really about people complaining about how powerful it is when Tiggy goes captian caveman and ruins everyones poop. It's kinda like when somebody complains that I use mutated smoked rhinos to block my berserkers from firewarriors str 5 guns (look on the bright side, atleast I didn't use dread claws as transports.....which I just might do come to think of it)

The range of the "area of affect" is 12" from the model activating it, not zero.hey, my kroot are not in range of that affect because that affect has a 0" range LOL, ok. If this spell was a template weapon I could see argument, but its not. You cannot even beging to compare this to blast or template affect because this targets only enemy models while blst and templte doesn't. You can activate FOD even with others of your side are in the affect but wont affect them whereas you cannot even shoot your own team with a flamer. It even gives a range of the area of affect (12" from the point of origin ie Tiggy). Well, then double that range of affect when used in conjunction with that spell distance doubler and then you get 24" unless directly stated that you cannot used it with this spell (like the winds of chaos with its doubler).

Like I said before, checks and balances. If I get into CC range with my Berserkers I should be able to clean up a tau firewarrior army easy, unless they purposely space the troops 2 inches apart which causes them to easily break away once they fail their LD test and blast the crap outa me with str 5 rapid fire. See how low LD has advantages and disadvantages? Yet people complain about this FOD tactic cause it targets low LD saying that it's unfair. Well what about a whole army who demolish 1/2 of the entire berserker army with str 10 Railguns and 30" pulse rifles? I cant even shoot more than 12 inches with 90 percent of my army with the exception of rhinos and defilers who generally need to move anyway to get into position and line of sight. How unfair!!!? No, it is fair. It took me a while to get used to it, you should too.

The range of the "area of affect" is 12" from the model activating it, not zero.hey, my kroot are not in range of that affect because that affect has a 0" range LOL, ok. If this spell was a template weapon I could see argument, but its not. You cannot even beging to compare this to blast or template affect because this targets only enemy models while blst and templte doesn't. You can activate FOD even with others of your side are in the affect but wont affect them whereas you cannot even shoot your own team with a flamer. It even gives a range of the area of affect (12" from the point of origin ie Tiggy).

The argument is not whether or not it is a template effect. Nobody's really arguing that - the question is whether or not 12" is a range or a defining point for an area of effect.

As a side note, it should be said that it does not matter what anyone's opinion of this power or character is. The only questions are the rules and interpretations thereof.

To say the 'range of area of effect is 12"' is not accurate. The two terms are distinct. Tigurius doubles the range of a power, not its area of effect. Even if the range were 0, nobody could argue that they were 'not within range', because the area of effect is clearly defined - ie. even if the range is 0, people within 12" will still be affected. The question is more about what the definition of 'range' is.

Janthkin defines range as the distance between a model and its target. That's a good, simplified, working definition of range, since range only has meaning when applied to whether or not a weapon/power affects a target within its maximum range. In that case, then, does FoD have a range of 12", and thus the ability to target all enemies within that range, or a range of 0, or 'self', and an area of effect with radius 12"?

Consider this example. A librarian attempts to cast Storm of Emperor's Wrath, but upon measuring, finds that the target unit is 13" away. In other words, the target unit is out of range, but close enough that he could cover a model with the area of effect (the template could cover that model if placed 12" away from the librarian). Is that model affected? No - the target is out of range, and the power does not happen.

Consider the same situation with FoD. The librarian attempts to cast FoD, but upon measuring, finds that there are no enemy units within 12". Is the power cast anyway? If 12" is its range, then the answer would seem to be no, because there are no targets within range. If the range is 0, or 'self', however, it seems to suggest that the power would be cast anyway, and just have nothing within its area of effect.

That's the crux of it, really - range only has meaning when defining distance between a model and its target, up to the maximum distance that model is allowed to affect its target at.

Just one thing about your argument about it not being a range...

Vortex of Doom also doesn't specifically mention a range. It says,
"Place the small blast template over any enemy unit not locked in an assault within 12" of the Librarian."

Does VoD not have a range either? Does Tiggy only work on Storm of the Emperor's Wrath?

Here's enough proof for me that FotD's 12" is a range: psychic powers follow the shooting rules unless otherwise specified.
Does it target like shooting? No.
Does it have range like shooting? Yes, but affects multiple targets.
Does it inflict wounds? No, but Morale tests are made like shooting.

Where I can, I follow the shooting rules - and this does have some rules that can be applied like shooting.

Here's enough proof for me that FotD's 12" is a range: psychic powers follow the shooting rules unless otherwise specified.
Does it target like shooting? No.
Does it have range like shooting? Yes, but affects multiple targets.
Does it inflict wounds? No, but Morale tests are made like shooting.

So your argument is that FotD has a range, which is 12", and has multiple targets within that range? Sounds fair to me.

Provided, of course, you are consistent with that definition, and require the Librarian to have LOS to all his targets.

Amusingly this type of arguement happened long ago in WHFB, of all places. The HE special character Teclis had an ability which boosted the range of spells (to everything in LOS, admittedly) which was later revised to not include any spells which affected all units within a certain radius range (in the WH Annual 200...4?)

I'm not saying this is applicable in this situation (since these are two separate games), I'm just appreciating the irony that they would cause the exact same situational debate with psy powers

I see and understand what you say and I agree to what example given with the storm of emperors wrath, however that is using a blast template situation and that is different than this situation given that if the range was zero, you couldn't even activate FOD because no enemy models are in the 0" range to declare the power being used on if you were to compare it to a shooting weapon. I also would normally agree with it not doubling the distance however, when I see exclusions of the "winds of chaos" example using a template weapon, that gives question as to why they didn't exclude the FOD. It cannot be because they thought that it doesnt have to be described because it doesn't pertain to it. If there has been no instance where template weapon has ever been doubled, then why exclude it specifically?
This is why I say that if it doesn't exclude FOD, then I'd say use it.
I woundn't stop someone from using it against me because I wouldn't have an example of exclusion or a rule which states otherwise.
Good points, though. I really do apreciate your input.