Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Right, this actually looks like the khrone terminator version of what I'm thinking of.

Basically, take a 2x2 matrix. One of the sides has "bikes" and "terminators" and the other axis has "khorne" and "nurgle".

I'm starting to consider possibly adding tzeench (TWO gifts a turn, you say?) but I don't know how that would work.

Or, to put the matrix into graphic form...



Okay, I just realised all my points values aren't quite there. You get what I mean, though.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, I just ran some numbers for the bikes and came up with a few interesting things.

So, assuming I drop some melta guns in favor of meltabombs to give khorne an extra bike per squad...

Against a 31 man power blob, the khorne bikes and the Tzeench bikes both win with 5 bikes (4 without the extra khorne bike), while the nurgle ends with 4. Nurgle and tzeench take longer, but are more likely to end on their opponent's turn

Against an assault terminator squad (3 THSS, 2 LCs), the end result is the bikes winning with 4 left over (well, 4.5 for tzeench, depending on how invul saves go).

Against a 10-man tac squad, sergeant with a fist, they all do identical (though MoT once again has a slight edge due to the invul save.

The interesting thing to note with these three common scenarios is that MoT bikers are actually the best bikers. 5++ may not sound like much, but against the flurry of power attacks, it actually does give them an edge. MoK and MoN both come in at roughly the same.

In this case, though, I think MoK slightly wins out over MoN because of the list as a whole. Plague marines may be good, but I can simply afford more berzerkers than plague marines. In the end, they wind up evening out. While MoT may have the best bikes, I can afford only half as many. Yeah, they weed out half the power attacks, but they only have half as many models. Bringing only 10 troops models to 1500 just seems too low, even for my crazy thought experiment.

Another thing that I've gotten, that I think someone was trying to tell me earlier, has to do with gifts. I was underestimating the brutal destruction power of CSM before. JUST BY THEMSELVES, these big bike squads are able to trash terminator squads and huge power blobs alike. Frankly, doing the calculations, whatever I'm attacking simply doesn't last long enough for me to have time to gifts something.

If I give the sorcerer a mark, to give it another ability, then the sorcerer just becomes RUDELY expensive for a single model. The only real exception I'm looking at is Nurgle's rot, but I'm not yet convinced.

If adding a sorcerer really isn't adding much, perhaps, in a bike list, I could just replace the sorcerer with a lord on a bike with a pair of lightning claws and a meltabomb (if points allowed, one of them would have a demon weapon, perhaps).

It's interesting to see some of the number crunching attached to these units!
It's actually sometihing I have also started to do quite often, mostly to test out the best way to micromanage during a battle lol.

Yes, Gift is touch and go. It's either not effective or devistating. You can't rely on it but it can turn the tide severely. If you go in knowing that it can work to your advantage.

I have the same comment about all of your lists really with the exception of the nurgle list. I feel that you should shift points out of elites/fa and move them to your troops. Things like having 6 termies in a squad instead of 8 and having 3-5 more troops to play with between your other squads. I would also think about trying to include a 3rd tier to your 2 tier army when possible. This will allow you to reinforce or spread out whn you need it. Does the sme job but is a little more versatile. I hope that made sense I tend to ramle nonsensically soemtimes!

I do Like seeing lords attached to FA units tho! I recently played a game with a lord attached to a squad of raptors and it was pretty devistating to my opponent!

You might want to check the meltabombs on your terminator armored characters, I'm pretty sure they lose that option when they suit up.

61 replies in one day huh. I guess everyone just really wants to help you out with this.

I've got some chaos marines myself and like I guess many, I was really interested in a lot of the units considered subpar - here and elsewhere. People seem to be really (and generally consistently) specific about the csm units and which ones are worth taking, but I've been trying out all sorts of things so I thought I'd give a word on these.

Raptors:
So, the thing with these guys, usually, is they are expensive "compared to assault marines". Or even BA assault marines. Personally I think this is a pretty stupid argument, not only because they can take two special weapons at base squad size and marks of chaos, but because even if they couldn't it doesn't really make them bad, or even worse than assault marines. They cost more yeah, and they don't regroup automatically, but here's the thing: marines with jump packs are dangerous.
They have an 18" assault range and marine stats, with the ability to fly over terrain. This can actually be pretty huge, especially when you're up against sloggers, where these guys have really proved their worth to me. When something is moving at foot speed and can't fight well in assault, raptors are obviously great to have around. Many units can smash up some termagants, but not every unit can catch them. As fast as raptors. To assault as far as these guys, any other chaos marine would have to be either in a land raider or on a bike. These still have to deal with terrain, and the land raider probably has more important things to do.
The way I've run raptors is in 5man squads with either 2 flamers or 2 meltas. Cheap, fast, pretty expendable and deadly to weaker units. Two squads for around 200pts and a pair of slots that no-one uses.

Bikers:
As with raptors, bikes suffer from loyalist marines having cheaper versions. They're not a whole lot cheaper, but they do have a few advantages. ATSKNF is pretty nice to have on bikers, for instance, since they're generally easy to force tests on and/or get under 50% models, and they can zoom off the board fast.
I've never actually used these guys, but I can think of a lot of things to use them for. Like raptors, they're a fast melta platform if you need one. In one turn, they're no faster than a squad of CSM in a rhino, but in two turns, the difference is 12" and 3+ cover. Decent stuff. Unlike raptors, they're relentless, so can fire plasma before assaulting - that's kind of worth noting. Some other things chaos bikers can do:

A: take mark of nurgle and get t6
B: turboboost 24" and deepstrike terminators/daemons (a personal favourite) off of an icon.
C: take two meltas, turboboost around and draw obscene amounts of fire for 120pts

The problem with A is that while the squad will be really resilient to marines in melee, it's going to need a few more bodies, and starts to get pricy for a unit that still doesn't have an inv. save or more than one power weapon.
B is cool, if you're into that sort of thing. No way to be guarantee reserves though, and even then you'll often want them near your other units anyway. As for C, probably everyone knows what it feels like when the enemy's cover save just won't budge. I'd say 120pts is a fair gamble on it being one of those days and they're hard to ignore either way.

Terminators:
Okay everyone knows how to use these. On the slogging/deepstriking type, marks pretty much come down to preference. Tzeentch gives an awesome 4+ inv that is sure to come in handy and nurgle guards against small arms and lasguns - hated enemies of terminators. Heard of people using slaanesh to lay fearsome beatings on meq. Khorne is probably the one mark I would personally never take, as they've got 2 attacks already and you can just make the chainfist a champion if that's the problem. Besides, I take these guys mainly to shoot combis. I'm sure I missed it while reading the previous pages, but have you considered combiweapons, Ailaros? They're totally great.

So, before I respond to other people's stuff, I just figured out that for the price of the 1k sons + sorc, I can get 10 MoT marines with a fist. I'd definitely be doing that instead.

logg_frogg wrote:I feel that you should shift points out of elites/fa and move them to your troops.

I know, I know. The problem is that I'm not certain how effective the fancy stuff will be with less points spent on them.

logg_frogg wrote:Things like having 6 termies in a squad instead of 8 and having 3-5 more troops to play with between your other squads.

Especially with the terminators. I've had a few games now against logan wing and death wing. So far I haven't lost a game to death wing, and I've tabled my logan wing opponent every time I've played him (except once, when he only had 1 model left on the board).

Terminators are actually somewhat shoddy, but I think I can make them work if I field enough of them with marks.

logg_frogg wrote: I would also think about trying to include a 3rd tier to your 2 tier army when possible.

I'd love to, but with what points?

MegaDave wrote:You might want to check the meltabombs on your terminator armored characters, I'm pretty sure they lose that option when they suit up.

Oh, thanks for the catch.

Almarine wrote:Raptors:

I agree with your assessment on raptors. The dilemma I have is this: If I take them in small squads, are they really going to do anything? If I take them in large squads are they going to be sufficiently survivable?

Almarine wrote:In one turn, they're no faster than a squad of CSM in a rhino, but in two turns, the difference is 12" and 3+ cover.

Actually, this is forgetting turbo-boosting. TBing turn 1, with 12"+ charge turn 2 gives them an 18" movement difference. That's over an extra turn of movement.

Almarine wrote: I'm sure I missed it while reading the previous pages, but have you considered combiweapons, Ailaros? They're totally great.

Not really. It's not that I don't see combi-weapons as bad, and I see how they synergize with deepstriking (although it's pretty risky when we're talking about melta here). The problem, once again, is points. In order to give everyone in an 8-termie squad a combi-weapon, I have to give the squad 4 less lightning claws. The latter has to be better than the former, right?

Almarine wrote:Khorne is probably the one mark I would personally never take

Oh, but the damage... THE DAMAGE.

5 MoK terminators with lightning claws (one of them a champ) puts down 25 lightning claw attacks on the charge. That's 15 dead guardsmen in one go. That's an entire 10-an tac squad.

Pure... carnage...

Ailaros wrote:

Almarine wrote:Raptors:

I agree with your assessment on raptors. The dilemma I have is this: If I take them in small squads, are they really going to do anything? If I take them in large squads are they going to be sufficiently survivable?

Well, 5 raptors are of course nothing when you match them up in against a dedicated assault unit. They would even struggle against a tac squad unless it's worn down first. But they have grenades and assault with around 15 attacks, and can take return hits pretty well as long as there aren't power weapons involved. Many might think that's one too many ifs, but fact is a lot of units aren't going to be able to handle five raptors well. This can obviously work to restrict an opponent's options, even if he's not stupid enough to split off lone squads or so.
Plus, they have special weapons. People take termicide, right? A raptor squad with meltas is less dependable in that role with one less shot on the first turn, and without the same chance to survive it, but if you feel like you won't need them to deepstrike you can just have them stalk about the field - with respectable mobility.

As for larger squads, I've never tried that. They just... I feel like the numbers don't give a great return in steps up the food chain. It would be interesting to see though, maybe 10 of them with slaanesh or khorne. Nurgle is going to be brutal too.

On the subject of raptors, you should know that the ones you buy have these stupid stands that make them harder to hide. If you want those, be aware that they can't always hide behind a rhino like regular assault marines. And if you're looking to convert then yeah, some people think it's an intended flaw.

Ailaros wrote:

Almarine wrote: I'm sure I missed it while reading the previous pages, but have you considered combiweapons, Ailaros? They're totally great.

Not really. It's not that I don't see combi-weapons as bad, and I see how they synergize with deepstriking (although it's pretty risky when we're talking about melta here). The problem, once again, is points. In order to give everyone in an 8-termie squad a combi-weapon, I have to give the squad 4 less lightning claws. The latter has to be better than the former, right?

Well... If it's 8 combiweapons vs. 4 single lightning claws, then I'd take the combis. These guys have power weapons standard, and they'll have the same amount of attacks just without the wound reroll. An 8-man unit will still put out 24 power attacks on the charge. The power attacks of a 50-man blob plus commissar, but ws4 s4 i4.

If they have dual LCs, you'll just have to weigh those attacks against the option of reserving and deep-striking these guys with enough firepower to scratch the paint of an achilles. It's a nice option to have, is all I'm saying.

Another list thingy, the Berserkers can't take meltaguns, only plasma pistols. However, you can give the rhino they ride in a combi melta. Most of the cult troops lack the special options that the normal marines have, but if you need a choppy dual melta squad the icon of khorne will work fine.

You could also think about taking Fabius and making your standard marines "enhanced warriors" for 3 pts. This makes them fearless and Str 5, and with the icon of khorne makes them almost like berserkers, minus the weapon skill and furious charge. You do have to watch out though, the "enhanced warriors" can cause you to take casualties before the game even starts, but at least you get the special/heavy weapons.

Ailaros wrote:
I know, I know. The problem is that I'm not certain how effective the fancy stuff will be with less points spent on them.

I find the problem is more that if you don't spend enough points on your basic units they get wiped too quickly, rendering them useless. Sometimes all it take is one more wound or PW attack to turn the tide. 15pts to save 160-200 seems like a good deal to me!

Ailaros wrote:
Terminators are actually somewhat shoddy, but I think I can make them work if I field enough of them with marks.

The trick with marks is to equip the troops with synergistic wargear. If you look at the termie squad I suggested what did I do?

I used pairs of lightning claws to add 3 more attacks to an already vicious squad that has 5 additional attacks from the MoK the majority of which get to re-roll failed wounds.
The chainfists are there to deal with multiple wounded charcs and vehicles.
I have had big success with them and they tear through infantry like mad! In a 2000pt game I would probably up the squad size.

Ailaros wrote:
I'd love to, but with what points?

They are hiding but they are there

Ailaros wrote:
I agree with your assessment on raptors. The dilemma I have is this: If I take them in small squads, are they really going to do anything? If I take them in large squads are they going to be sufficiently survivable?

Raptors don;t need to be survivable and even in larger squads tend to get wiped out. All they need to do is attack a specific target and try to kill their value in points before they die. The best way to make them last a little longer is to give them a MoN or MoT

Ailaros wrote:Not really. It's not that I don't see combi-weapons as bad, and I see how they synergize with deepstriking (although it's pretty risky when we're talking about melta here). The problem, once again, is points. In order to give everyone in an 8-termie squad a combi-weapon, I have to give the squad 4 less lightning claws. The latter has to be better than the former, right?

Combi weapons are cheap and well worth it in the long run. Whats the math on running 7 /w combi instead of 8 w/o?

Almarine wrote:Khorne is probably the one mark I would personally never take

Oh, but the damage... THE DAMAGE.

I find bikes work best in the *B* scenario mentioned above. They go fast and are very durable so they will stick around until reserves roll in. The biggest problem I have found with them is they suck the big one in CC. they don't die but they do essentially nothing as they don't have any way to get bonus attacks. I like running multiple squads of 3 and using them to drop daemons wherever I need em!


This has turned into quite the good discussion!

Almarine wrote:Any specific reason why the lords have only one claw each, or just points?

They have pairs, it's just not clearly marked.

Almarine wrote: What do you say to a nurgle bike lord with daemon weapon? Sexiest daemon weapon + sexiest nurgle biker toughness.

I did consider a manreaper on both bike and wing. The problem is that lightning claws do as much damage against most targets, while not doing as much against weaker targets (with a chance that they do nothing at all

Okay, so I've just thought things through a bit, and it doesn't make sense to take the MoN raptors. I gain the less damage of the bikes and the slower speed of the raptors, while only gaining a slight edge against small arms fire.

My "which is better"? is now down to these three choices...


A.)

Lord, MoK, bike, lightning claws, meltabombs
Lord, MoK, bike, lightning claws

Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist, meltabombs
- Rhino
Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist, meltabombs
- Rhino

Chaos Bikers (8), MoK, champion with power fist, meltabombs
Chaos Bikers (8), MoK, champion with power fist, meltabombs


B.)

Lord, MoK, wings, lightning claws, meltabombs
Lord, MoK, wings, lightning claws, meltabombs

Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist, meltabombs
- Rhino
Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist, meltabombs
- Rhino

Chaos Raptors (13), MoK, meltagun, champion with power fist, meltabombs
Chaos Raptors (13), MoK, meltagun, champion with power fist, meltabombs


C.)

Lord, MoK, wings, lightning claws, meltabombs
Lord, MoK, wings, lightning claws , meltabombs

Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist
Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist
Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist

Chaos Raptors (10), MoK, meltagun, champion with power fist
Chaos Raptors (10), MoK, meltagun, champion with power fist

So, A is the bike list. I like it because its big and flashy. The rhinos synergize with the bikes, and the bikes are going to be in someone's face right away. Scary and straightforward. B is the raptor list. The rhinos hopefully hold off things like lascannons and misisle launchers for a turn while I move in. 13 raptors and a lord will then BEAT FACE with whatever they come across. List C is a more conventional list. Footsloggers synergize with raptors for target saturation. The only nagging problem I have is that the troops will be slower than the support units. It also has less of the pizzas and in your face brutality.

So, what do you think?

Any specific reason why the lords have only one claw each, or just points? Because with the extra attack from a second claw, you can take off MoK for a net cost decrease of 5pts, with the same total attacks.

Anyway, I figure I've given enough sensible advice for one thread. What do you say to a nurgle bike lord with daemon weapon? Sexiest daemon weapon + sexiest nurgle biker toughness.

Almarine wrote:Any specific reason why the lords have only one claw each, or just points?

They have pairs, it's just not clearly marked.

Almarine wrote: What do you say to a nurgle bike lord with daemon weapon? Sexiest daemon weapon + sexiest nurgle biker toughness.

I did consider a manreaper on both bike and wing. The problem is that lightning claws do as much damage against most targets, while not doing as much against weaker targets (with a chance that they do nothing at all

Okay, so I've just thought things through a bit, and it doesn't make sense to take the MoN raptors. I gain the less damage of the bikes and the slower speed of the raptors, while only gaining a slight edge against small arms fire.

My "which is better"? is now down to these three choices...


A.)

Lord, MoK, bike, lightning claws, meltabombs
Lord, MoK, bike, lightning claws

Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist, meltabombs
- Rhino
Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist, meltabombs
- Rhino

Chaos Bikers (8), MoK, champion with power fist, meltabombs
Chaos Bikers (8), MoK, champion with power fist, meltabombs


B.)

Lord, MoK, wings, lightning claws, meltabombs
Lord, MoK, wings, lightning claws, meltabombs

Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist, meltabombs
- Rhino
Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist, meltabombs
- Rhino

Chaos Raptors (13), MoK, meltagun, champion with power fist, meltabombs
Chaos Raptors (13), MoK, meltagun, champion with power fist, meltabombs


C.)

Lord, MoK, wings, lightning claws, meltabombs
Lord, MoK, wings, lightning claws , meltabombs

Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist
Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist
Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist

Chaos Raptors (10), MoK, meltagun, champion with power fist
Chaos Raptors (10), MoK, meltagun, champion with power fist

So, A is the bike list. I like it because its big and flashy. The rhinos synergize with the bikes, and the bikes are going to be in someone's face right away. Scary and straightforward. B is the raptor list. The rhinos hopefully hold off things like lascannons and misisle launchers for a turn while I move in. 13 raptors and a lord will then BEAT FACE with whatever they come across. List C is a more conventional list. Footsloggers synergize with raptors for target saturation. The only nagging problem I have is that the troops will be slower than the support units. It also has less of the pizzazz and in your face brutality.

So, what do you think?

I like "A" the best, but no meltas on the biker squads? I know you have the bombs, but it might be nice to not have to kill EVERYTHING in close combat!

The main reason I like it though is that most people seem to think bikers are worse than raptors, and it'd be fun to see someone prove them wrong. Plus, with the way you model and paint, they should look awesome!

MegaDave wrote:I like "A" the best, but no meltas on the biker squads?

Yeah.

If I'm playing against multiple vehicles, I'd MUCH rather multi-assault with krak grenades and power fists and meltabombs than to possibly wreck one vehicle and let the others alone.

Plus, I have to ditch my close combat weapon to get a melta on a bike, which gives me one fewer attack.

MegaDave wrote: I know you have the bombs, but it might be nice to not have to kill EVERYTHING in close combat!

Wait, there's a shooting phase?

I wonder what it would- BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!!

MegaDave wrote:The main reason I like it though is that most people seem to think bikers are worse than raptors, and it'd be fun to see someone prove them wrong. Plus, with the way you model and paint, they should look awesome!

I'm not going to lie, I'm tempted by that logic. Bikes would also look way cooler than raptors. Unfortunately, they'll also take me much more time and expense to produce.

If I'm playing against multiple vehicles, I'd MUCH rather multi-assault with krak grenades and power fists and meltabombs than to possibly wreck one vehicle and let the others alone.

I hear ya loud and clear, but what about if you are running up to a land raider? If you want to get to the squad inside, the meltaguns help. Plus, if the thing moved, it's going to be hard for you to hit it in the first place, and then the squad inside will get the charge off next turn. They are also nice if you are running up againts a wraithlord or something, maybe put a wound or two on it before you have to rely on the powerfist to get you out.

Just some thoughts, and thing I've run into. Or rather, have run over me!

MegaDave wrote:I hear ya loud and clear, but what about if you are running up to a land raider?

Right, that's sort of the one thing that isn't well accounted for other than monoliths (which I'm just not even going to bother with. I'll force a phase-out if I must). The problem, really, is points. I can't quite see giving up 4 meltabombs for 2 meltaguns, but perhaps that is what must be done.

In the very least, I can rely on having local superiority over what comes OUT of the land raider. And, in extreme cases, perhaps I could surround-kill with bikes...

This list is definitely flatter in a way than other's I've played, as, you're right, it's revolved primarily around one thing. Not knowing what else to do, I think I'll just have to come up with workarounds. After all, you know what they say...

Too bad you can't put Kharn on a bike.

Well it should be interesting either way. And really, you're fast enough to run away from land raiders, so maybe it won't be that big of an issue.

Oh and I've got a lot of random chaos stuff laying around, if you need help with some models. I don't live that far from you, could get a game in and make a trade if needed.

Another thing to think about here too.

Khorne Bezerkers have *furious charge* giving them +1 str/+1 Ini on the charge.

Equiping the champ with a PF means you are making his attacks go at initiative 1 instead of 5. Can make a big diff when fighting marines as he should kill before they get to swing

logg_frogg wrote:Another thing to think about here too.

Khorne Bezerkers have *furious charge* giving them +1 str/+1 Ini on the charge.

Equiping the champ with a PF means you are making his attacks go at initiative 1 instead of 5. Can make a big diff when fighting marines as he should kill before they get to swing

The rest of the unit is still i5 though and crazy enough to put down a fair number of marines on their own, if their unit arrives mostly intact. Skull champion is also perhaps the game's best wielder of a (hidden) power fist, with his base 3 attacks and furious s9 assault.

But yeah it's an old debate.

Right. I'm already bringing a lot of anti-infantry stuff. The S9 powerfists are there so that I'm not COMPLETELY boned against vehicles (and wounding wraithlord on 3's isn't that shabby either).

You know, I suppose this means that I really don't need to give them meltabombs, as I can only think of one case (land raiders) where they would be useful, and I do have meltabombs on everything else. Obviously I'd like to keep them on claw lords, but I suppose it isn't technically necessary for the biker champs either, is it?

Keep them as insurance policy, or strip them out and find somewhere else to put the 15/20 points?

Keep them as insurance policy, or strip them out and find somewhere else to put the 15/20 points?

Take them out and put a combi melta or combi plasma on each of the berserkers rhinos.

The only problem, much to my frustration, is that with the bike list, the first thing I need to do is put a meltabomb on my other lord, leaving me with 15 points. You can't do anything symmetrical with that.

So, I've used mechanized transport AT ALL with only one unit once in the history of my ever. I'm under the impression that, at 1500 points, with only 2 vehicles, my rhinos are likely to explode before they can do anything useful, so putting any upgrade on them, much less a weapon that they'll never get to shoot seems silly.

But, as mentioned, it seems silly to someone who has virtually no experience with transports and no experience at all with rhinos. Am I really going to get more use out of a single melta shot than I would out of extra armor?

Special weapon on a biker/raptor?

Why do you need a Melta Bomb on a Lord? I think if you invested in 2 Meltaguns for the same cost it would be much more points-efficient. As for Rhinos, I never give them ugprades, because they'll never live long enough to make the most out of it.

So, I've used mechanized transport AT ALL with only one unit once in the history of my ever. I'm under the impression that, at 1500 points, with only 2 vehicles, my rhinos are likely to explode before they can do anything useful, so putting any upgrade on them, much less a weapon that they'll never get to shoot seems silly.

But, as mentioned, it seems silly to someone who has virtually no experience with transports and no experience at all with rhinos. Am I really going to get more use out of a single melta shot than I would out of extra armor?

It just depends on the opponent and the situation, really. Against a shooty guard list? Maybe not. Against a drop pod list that had dreadnoughts, and you decide to reserve everything? Absolutely. You may also find yourself in a situation where you more the rhino 12", get the guys out and run them, leaving the rhino empty. Then they have to pick the threat, and if they ignore the rhino, it melts something. If you are facing deepstrikers, like daemons or terminators, a few combi plasma shots will help soften them up.

You may also like the idea of them BEING more of a threat, to keep a little more fire off of your bikers. On the bright side, combi weapons can be modeled in a modular fashion, and so you can try some games with them and some without, and see what you think. I very very rarely ever find myself saying "I really wish I had taken extra armor."

well, so if I strip off all the meltaguns, I save 25 points. Of course, the entirety of my anti-vehicle at 1500 points is now a slough of krak grenades and 4 power fists.

I suppose, against most vehicular-based armies, this will probably be enough. Rear armor AV10 is nearly universal, which means that I shouldn't be having too many problems.

Really, then the only problems are land raiders, monoliths, and storm ravens. Anything else is either going to have weak enough rear armor and/or is going to be slow enough for me to catch with bikes. Unfortunately, melta doesn't work against either storm ravens or monoliths, which means that melta weapons at all would really just be there to bother with land raiders. The question is, though, if whatever is in a land raider has a 21" threat range, when am I ever actually using the meltaguns?

As far as I can tell, they would be a slight insurance policy against skimmers moving 24". In this case, depending on the circumstances, I could move 12" and then shoot a melta out to 12" more. Still, it's a single melta shot that's not in melta range.

In fact, the only thing I can see them being particularly useful for is against dreadnoughts. I don't know if it's worth it to spend 25 points for that single contingency.

But what else would I spend the 25 points on?

But what else would I spend the 25 points on?

Nothing that we haven't already covered. Might as well just stick with the bombs.

You can always buy another berserker.

But then they wouldn't be at Khornes sacred number, it'd blow the whole deal!

Are you completely opposed to defilers?

I have had nothing but great experiences with them.

But I only run them in pairs. 1 defiler = dead meat!

No, I'm not, actually.

Defilers are big and flashy, I will admit. The problem is that I can't figure out a way to spend more than like 500 points on them, which means they can never really form the core of my list.

Perhaps once the chaos codex gets updated, and you can take them in squads of three, but until then, how would I make a thematic list with them?