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logg_frogg wrote: And in the Chaos world you are in luck because the large majority of the codex is viable if fielded properly.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

There are lots of whiners to most codecies. Proving them wrong would bring a special degree of joy.

logg_frogg wrote:All of the ideas you posted are viable, but the main thing you need to do for competetive play is solidify your troops before branching out to EL, FA and HS

Oh, I know, I know. I am big into core units (look no further than my guard army), and definitely see a strong core as a very good thing. This is going to sound stupid, but I'm looking to branch out from that. Normally, I consider toy-heavy lists a sure way to a quick defeat. I've never actually tested this, though.

logg_frogg wrote:The first step to a mathematically sound army is fielding proepr size units depending on what they are.

Indeed.

I actually just ran the math of nurgle bikes against your standard 3-PIS power blob, with a slight bias towards the blob:

31-dude power blob v. 8 nurgle bikers, sorcerer with gifts.

bikers charge.

7 bikers kill 4, fist kills 1.5, sorcerer kills 2

21 bayonets kill .6, 9 power weapon attacks kill 1

5 bikers kill 3 guardsmen, fist kills 1, Sorcerer kills 1.5, gifts fails to kill the commissar

14 bayonets kill .3 bikers, 9 power weapon attacks kills .7

4 bikers kill 2 guardsmen, fist kills 1, Sorcerer kills 1.5, gifts fails to kill the commissar.

10 bayonets kills .5 bikers, 9 power weapon attacks kills .7

3 bikers kill 2 guardsmen, fist kills 1, Sorcerer kills 1.5, gifts kills the commissar. On Ld4, guardsmen very likely break and run.

The end result? The 31-dude blob is wiped out after 2 game turns, with half the biker squad ready to go on their own turn.

So I guess nurgle bikes aren't as bad as their low model count implies. I'll have to consider this option more...

CSM bikers in general are WAY overcosted compared to their SM counterparts, which are 25 points a piece. You're effectively paying 7 points for an extra close combat weapon, while loosing the ATSKNF and Combat Tactics rule. However they're all the CSM have, but you really are paying so much more points for literally no reason (at min squad, a SM player basically gets 9 points of free wargear and get 3 bikers, one of which is a sarge, while the CSM just get 3 normal bikers). However that's not to say CSM bikers arn't good, the marks make them insane (although the Nurgle mark really benefits from being in large squads, as 38 points per T6 biker is easier to swallow than almost 50 points per biker).

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:CSM bikers in general are WAY overcosted compared to their SM counterparts, which are 25 points a piece... However that's not to say CSM bikers arn't good, the marks make them insane

Right. I'm actually brutally uninterested with how a particular unit compares with a similar unit in a different codex.

Yes, marine bikes are cheaper, and they're scoring. No, regular marine bikes don't get to be supported by plague marines.

If you want to run a Nurgle themed list without DPs, then how about something like...

HQ:

Sorc w/ gift: 130
Sorc w/ gift: 130

Heavy:

7x Havocs, 4x Autocannons: 185
7x Havocs, 4x Autocannons: 185

Troops:

5x Plague Marines, 2x Meltaguns in a Rhino: 170
5x Plague Marines, 2x Meltaguns in a Rhino: 170
5x Plague Marines, 2x Meltaguns in a Rhino: 170

Elites:

5x Terminators, 3x Combimeltas, 1x Chainfist: 180
5x Terminators, 3x Combimeltas, 1x Chainfist: 180



Competitively speaking, I don't think that MoN is going to be worth it on any of the units other than the PMs. The Sorcerors are either eating a power fist or doing fine, the Terminators have Terminator armor and most things that eat 2+ also eat T4(5), and the Havocs are mostly going to be taking antitank fire. They've got ablative wounds for everything else.

It incorporates 2 Terminator squads, Havocs which aren't part of the cookie cutter lists, your sorcerors, and Plague Marines.

To be honest, not to be completely unhelpful, but I completely disagree with just about everything in that list.

I'm not particularly concerned with agreement or disagreement. I don't in any way consider myself a chaos master, having never played a chaos army.

What I am most interested is why you feel the way you do.

i have just started my ig army Ailaros and before that i played death guard. i also have a real problem with the aforementioned list. it would take too much time for me to post up why, plus im more eloquent in person rather than online but look at this site and it should give you all you need to know;

www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?s=e16df5a60a5b7060aa97aea851cb81d0&showforum=101




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specifically;
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=156101

So, I read that article, but it seems kind of old and inaccurate. The claim that 5th ed made vehicles more durable, that 5th ed games can't be won by attrition, and CSM must be mech, along with some codex errors, like that gifts REQUIRES you to put down a spawn mode sort of casts a shadow over the piece.

Furthermore, the article doesn't have anything to say about why you would have a problem with any of the above lists.

Ailaros wrote:So, I read that article, but it seems kind of old and inaccurate. The claim that 5th ed made vehicles more durable, that 5th ed games can't be won by attrition, and CSM must be mech, along with some codex errors, like that gifts REQUIRES you to put down a spawn mode sort of casts a shadow over the piece.

Furthermore, the article doesn't have anything to say about why you would have a problem with any of the above lists.

Are you making an army because you want it to be competitive or just for giggles?



More concretely: Two Rhinos are going to get smoked on T1, so count on your Plague Marines footslogging. Then you've got 4 footslogging squads that can't afford to take casualties. You're going to get manhandled by anyone who knows what they're doing, or just simply avoided. Any mech player is going to shoot those two Rhinos on T1 and then just stay away from you. The list has zero long-range AT.

As for the biker lists, the bikes don't have the offensive output to be threatening to anything but foot guard. Any mech army is going to paste them. Any army with dedicated assault units (TH/SS Terminators, Nid's MCs, etc.) are going to eat though them. Even Tactical Marines with a Fist on the sgt are going to win the Attrition by Numbers game. Most things that you use for shooting up T5 things are going to kill T6 things just as well. Special Weapons win 40k, not basic weapons, generally speaking. They don't have the numbers or AV going for them to withstand that.

NuggzTheNinja wrote: The list has zero long-range AT.

That hasn't stopped me before, why should it stop me with CSM?

I do agree, though, that the rhinos seem less than ideal. The reason they're there primarily stems from the fact that I don't think 2 more plague marines are going to do as much for the same price.

Plus, they draw lascannon fire away from the plague marines and bikes or terminators.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:As for the biker lists, the bikes don't have the offensive output to be threatening to anything but foot guard.

2x melta, a S8 powerfist, free krak grenades, and a force weapon/gifts has no offensive output?

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Any mech army is going to paste them. Any army with dedicated assault units (TH/SS Terminators, Nid's MCs, etc.) are going to eat though them. Even Tactical Marines with a Fist on the sgt are going to win the Attrition by Numbers game. Most things that you use for shooting up T5 things are going to kill T6 things just as well. Special Weapons win 40k, not basic weapons, generally speaking. They don't have the numbers or AV going for them to withstand that.

Care to back that up with some math?

being able to move 24" with a 3++ on a bunch of T6 models hardly sounds like it's lining up for a pasting.

Yes, if small arms literally didn't matter, I could see a unit type that is good against small arms fire being worthless. Underestimating basic attacks, however is a grievous mistake in my book.

I stand by a Rhino Rush. Even if it's only an extra 6 inch for one movement phase, it's well worth it. PM's T5 and FnP means that even if the rhino explodes, the odds of them suffering a wound is almost nonexistant.

As for the dedicated assault unit math, sure man. Just trying to help out.


Assuming they make it across the table...

So 7 Nurgle Bikers, 1 with a fist, rolls up on...say...a squad of Plasma Vets in a Chimera:

The 1 melta gun shoots. Hopefully you hit. Hopefully you pen. Hopefully you wreck it. Let's assume it's wrecked and you're out of assault range...

6 vets fire Plasma guns. 4 hit, 2-3 wound, 2-3 dead and very expensive bikers.

The bikers go after a Land Raider w/ TH/SS Terminators in it...

Say the shot wrecks or explodes the Raider. You charge them. That's 6x3=18 attacks. 9 hit, 4.5 wound. ~1 dead Terminator. 8 attacks back, 4 hit, 3.3333 wound. Fister swings, 3A, 1.5 hit, say another deaed TH/SS Terminator. They lost a 250 pt Raider and 80 points worth of guys. You lost at least 3 Bikers. Round two, 3x2=6 attacks, 3 hit, 1.5 wound, 25% chance of a dead Terminator. Terminators swing, 8 attacks, another 3.33333 dead bikers, then the fist swings and kills another Terminator. End result, 3 turns of combat this squad is toast.

TWolf cav is going to be ugly. Wolf Claws rerolling failed rolls to wound (wounding on 5's with rerolls, meh...), thunder hammers, etc.


The reality of Mech armies is that you're going to roll up on them, wreck their transport, then they're going to get out and light you up with something that doesn't care all that much about T(4)6. If you want to try the army, play it against other competitive builds in your local meta. Against H2H stuff they really don't stand a chance. People don't kill bikers by shooting them but rather by assaulting them. What's in that unit that's really a threat to any competitive build out there...a single meltagun? A fist? Any competent opponent is going to get you get close, nuke a transport, and then hose you brutally.


ETA: I'd love to see you stomp face with the list you posted, I just don't see it happening. If you want to prove me wrong though, I've got 3 bikers, 2 with meltaguns well-built and unpainted that I'd let go on the swap shop cheap enough.

Why would you charge TH/SS terminators? they have no guns or fleet. After blowing the land raider you just zip around them and shooting them. The bolters should be firing as relentless, so the bikers dont need to get within 23 inches of the termies.

Sure, but if you look at THE hard counters and units which cost more that are specialized at what they do, ANY unit is going to look bad. I should note, though, that the bikers v. mech guard is actually better than let on. After all, once the bikers multi-assault with krak grenades and eat a round of plasma, they then get to multi-assault the vets in side. Plus, you forgot about gifts (and in some cases, the fists).

I'm not seeing much doom and gloom, despite the most earnest of efforts to present it, honestly.

Something I've noticed about people criticizing those wanting to try things that are not a netlist (Or in the TCG world, netdecking. It's where you take a decklist and copy it card by card just because it won a tournament) is that they always give the pessimistic point of view.

How do we know that these units are as bad as you claim? We really don't because people are too scared to not netlist.

I say, go with your ideal of proving the CSM codex to be better outside of a PM/Oblit/DP list. This is a game based more on the tactician more than the units being fielded.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Why would you charge TH/SS terminators? they have no guns or fleet. After blowing the land raider you just zip around them and shooting them. The bolters should be firing as relentless, so the bikers dont need to get within 23 inches of the termies.

They're within 6" of the Raider at the time it goes, it's either charge or get charged. But still, even in this unfortunate case your bikers are unhorsing and mauling 450 points of Land Raider and terminators. Add the IC's power weapon attacks in and they might even win.

If they dont manage to kill it, they still blow up their own points worth in the land raider and the amount of termies they downed, which is still a net gain. And as Ailaros pointed out you're comparing the hard counters. You wouldnt send a Trygon deepstriking in to fight a bunch of Wraithguard, you'd shoot the crap out of them with termagaunts and swarm them.

AresX8 wrote: they always give the pessimistic point of view.

I mean, the pessimistic view isn't useless here. It's good to know the worst case scenario. For example, knowing that the worst case scenario is only going to be SO bad is useful information.

Raxmei wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Why would you charge TH/SS terminators? they have no guns or fleet. After blowing the land raider you just zip around them and shooting them. The bolters should be firing as relentless, so the bikers dont need to get within 23 inches of the termies.

They're within 6" of the Raider at the time it goes, it's either charge or get charged. But still, even in this unfortunate case your bikers are unhorsing and mauling 450 points of Land Raider and terminators. Add the IC's power weapon attacks in and they might even win.

And the gifts. My god, why is everyone ignoring the fact that there will be gifts of chaos being thrown around?

With two sorcerers against T4 models, the odds are pretty good that something gets blown up into a spawn in any given turn.

Range and timing on the gift of chaos. In the case I was discussing you wouldn't get the opportunity to use Gift of Chaos until the turn after taking out the transport. By that point you've either already been through two assault phases or given the enemy a chance do something about it. If the other guy ends his turn with nobody less than 6" away from the sorceror there won't be any valid targets in your turn.

Wait, so you're saying that I'd blow up a land raider, and the THSS termies would pile out over 6" away from my sorcerer and then NOT charge the bikes on their turn?

Your example though permits the squad to survive to turn 3. A single Gifted Terminator would severely change the outcome, especially since the Sorc still has his power weapon.

However this would be one instance where I make an argument for Winds, as it has pretty much the same success rate as Gift on a per-terminator basis, while possessing the ability to whack all five at once. It's the same point cost, but much more in terms of a return. Given that the Sorc is a IC, he can disengage from the squad prior to shooting, but remain close enough to Wind them. Alternatively the Sorc can sacrifice himself to keep the bikers going, or vice versa and have the sorc stand ready to deliver a Winds when combat ends. Either way, this unit can do so much more to a TH/SS terminator squad with a land Raider than your giving credit for.

Especially against low-model-count units. Turning 1 slugga boy out of 30 isn't much of a thing. Picking Grimnar out of a 5-man termie squad, or spawning a TWC, on the other hand, causes a much harsher % of casualties per model killed.

The Force Weapon would come in really handy for killing off TWCs, as does Wind (sorry for keep bringing it up, but I love that psychic power).

back to that web site that i posted on; i think that while they do seem a little dated there are some very good points made (did you read the next 5 pages for the updates?)

i posted it because i think for death guard armies this page has all of what you need/want to know about their list building. have a look around the army lists which are being bounced around plus the updated tatica's.

im sure your list would win games but i dont think it will be as much fun or as good as a more synchronised list.

furthermore, id like to suggest a khorn army. you just dont see them but damn they could be fun...

Indeed. Kharn and Khorne Berserkers are the other half of the "good" units in the Chaos codex and running them up can be alot of fun. Problem is they lack a good delivery system since they're assault oriented troops.

PMs are just fun because your opponent will consistently call bs on you for being so damn survivable.

Ailaros wrote:Wait, so you're saying that I'd blow up a land raider, and the THSS termies would pile out over 6" away from my sorcerer and then NOT charge the bikes on their turn?

I neglected to mention I was switching from speaking about a specific case to speaking in general. In that specific case you've already weathered an assault phase or two before the power comes up, in general the enemy has time to stop you. To elaborate on what I suppose would happen in the terminators case, I'm not a marine player myself but I suppose I'd pile out over 6" away if possible to deny you the charge and then assault on my turn. If the sorceror makes base contact I allocate attacks to take him out, if not I win combat handily and you have a good chance to break and fall back out of range.

how different do you want your army from IG Ailaros? i ask this because the survivability of the PM's are very similar to the IG blob. that is part of the reason of why blob guard attracted me. do you mind that they are similar in purpose (high durability good close range guys)?


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furthermore the game mechanics for both of these armies are almost interchangeable.

Ailaros wrote:So, I read that article, but it seems kind of old and inaccurate. The claim that 5th ed made vehicles more durable, that 5th ed games can't be won by attrition, and CSM must be mech, along with some codex errors, like that gifts REQUIRES you to put down a spawn mode sort of casts a shadow over the piece.

Furthermore, the article doesn't have anything to say about why you would have a problem with any of the above lists.

everything must be taken wiht a grain of salt . did you read all of the available articles or just the one marked 5th?

I'm not trying to say they are gospel, i'm just saying they filled me full of ideas that have worked for me!

In the last 20 games I have played I have made an effort to play something different every time and have found that with the right balance in your units and a play style that matches your army it's hard to go wrong as long as you are fielding chaos spawn

I made an intersting list up last night and will post it here when I get home from work I know the framework but I don;t want to screw it up lol

Hey Ailaros,

Nice to see you make the switch to the Dark Powers. I'm sure you love the armybuildingpotential inherent to Chaos. Your IG army has nice, subtle conversions, a cool theme and a great paint job. Im looking forward to seeing your Chaos army :-)

You say you're looking for 'bombastic and flashy' and an 'out of the box' kind of list. For me that would mean choosing more variety in the unitselection.

You want to choose between either raptors, bikers or terminators. Is there a reason you don't combine two or more of these units? I think there is good synergy between Bikers and Terminators for instance. The latter using the Icon in the first unit to deepstrike from/flank overload, etc.

I've played Black Legion for a good while (used a Chaoszilla list of sorts). I've found that especially Greater Daemons and Dreadnoughts are easily overlooked in the standard build while they served me outstandingly.

My advice:

Take some of everything to make for the most fun. Take another look at Chosen, Greater Daemons, Dreadnoughts and Lesser Daemons and see if you can find a mix of CSM and Plaguemarines, Terminators and Bikers...

I dont have a codex handy, so can't check for points, but something like this:

Sorcerer
Greater Daemon
Terminators
Dreadnought
CSM, Rhino
Plaguemarines, Rhino
Lesser Daemons
Nurgle Bikers

could be crammed into 1500 points and would be great fun to play with.

Just my € 0,02. Interested to see what you end up with.

Oh and to answer your question, which of the Chaos lists you mention is preferable? I'd take the Biker list. But Im a sucker for mobilty and the option of turboboostmoves.

Cilithan

I said I would Post up a list tonight so here it is:

HQ

Chaos Lord MoK , PP, DW, MB 160pts

Chaos Sorc MoN, PP, Fam, Gift, Warp, PI 205pts

Troop

CSMx9 Melta, AC /w pp, pw, mb, rhino /w CM 240pts

CSMx9 Melta, AC /w pp, pw, mb, rhino /w CM 240pts

CSMx10, 2x Melta Rhino /w CM 215pts

Elite

Term X5, MoK, 3 /w pairs of LC, 2 /w CF, CM 220pts

Term X5, MoK, 3 /w pairs of LC, 2 /w CF, CM 220pts


1500 on the dot.

Reading this thread made me think of this, am going to try it when I get home in a week lol!

It's going to be diff playing with no HS but I think this list can take it!

*let the flames begin* lol