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Oh, and Slipknotsomeone - I can't speak for the VC, but I will say that to me TK is closest to the 40K eldar. Great if EVERY aspect of your game works, but prone to folding like a lawn chair. VC seems slightly more forgiving, but I've never played them or against them, so I don't know for sure.

i almost chose tk as my army instead. but i ended up getting vc

And WHFB is a good break from 40k, without really having to rememorize the "to hit" and the "to wound" charts..1 thing though..even with a strength of 1, you can now wound ANYTHING on a 6....

Im going to post a list of what i have on the army list forum, it isnt much and again i dont know the rules so it wont be impressive either lol.

God i wish my gaming store hadnt closed down.

Well, don't get me wrong, I am not a total hater. I have about 8,000 points of Lizardmen, mostly from 4th edition. I just got back into the game and this local guy was selling all his lizards for like $200 and it was like $700 retail worth of stuff so I just picked it up. I also think limiting the points on Lord characters, their items, and such is a big step needed from 4th edition. I mean you should have seen my 4th edition Slaan, he was basically unstoppable.

I also think 40K had the same problems with special characters and assassins back in the day too. We also do play smaller scale games. This was over spring break and they wanted to play a giant game. We have a 4 x 10 table, but were only playing on a 4 x 8 foot area. I think table size and terrain are huge factors in making the game fun or not in larger games. In smaller games the impact is not so bad.

I still like the game as it is a good break from fantasy. I like collecting and painting my models. I do think that characters are still too over powered, and that magic needs a lot of work to make it more fun and more balanced. I think Lizardmen are a good army and my tactics are pretty solid. The skink skirmishers are amazing for their point cost. March and shoot, quick to fire, 2 shots per a model, aquatic and cold blooded. People tend to ignore them because they are skinks, but if you don't they unleash so much fire.

Crom wrote:I mean you should have seen my 4th edition Slaan, he was basically unstoppable.

Have you seen an 8th edition slann?

(Of course you have, if you play LM, and I don't mind them being powerful- they're the oldest/strongest wizards in the game, after all. But they're still a doozy!)

I don't get this, yes slaan are uber but they pay premium points for that privilege, unlike other units.

RiTides wrote:

Crom wrote:I mean you should have seen my 4th edition Slaan, he was basically unstoppable.

Have you seen an 8th edition slann?

(Of course you have, if you play LM, and I don't mind them being powerful- they're the oldest/strongest wizards in the game, after all. But they're still a doozy!)

4th edition slaan would kick the crap out of 8th. They used to include the saurus carrying the palanquin as part of the model/unit. It had like 6 wounds, 6 attacks, toughness 8, st 6, ws 8 int 7 but back then initiative was more of a pointless stat. Plus they knew all sorts of magic, and had regeneration and a ward save and so much more. Slaan now are super weak combat wise, but only powerful at magic.

They have really toned down characters a ton since 3rd and 4th editions, but I still feel they bring an imbalance to the game. I think ranks and being able to attack back and steadfast huge improvements.

Crom wrote:

RiTides wrote:

Crom wrote:I mean you should have seen my 4th edition Slaan, he was basically unstoppable.

Have you seen an 8th edition slann?

(Of course you have, if you play LM, and I don't mind them being powerful- they're the oldest/strongest wizards in the game, after all. But they're still a doozy!)

4th edition slaan would kick the crap out of 8th. They used to include the saurus carrying the palanquin as part of the model/unit. It had like 6 wounds, 6 attacks, toughness 8, st 6, ws 8 int 7 but back then initiative was more of a pointless stat. Plus they knew all sorts of magic, and had regeneration and a ward save and so much more. Slaan now are super weak combat wise, but only powerful at magic.

They have really toned down characters a ton since 3rd and 4th editions, but I still feel they bring an imbalance to the game. I think ranks and being able to attack back and steadfast huge improvements.

Characters really are meant to be strong in WHFB..it is "herohammer" after all...

but imbalance? i do not think so, not in 8th...they are powerful, as befits the nature of whfb...

Otherwise, you can play wh historic battles instead of whfb....no magic, and possibly less effect from thecharacters..

freddieyu1 wrote:

Crom wrote:

RiTides wrote:

Crom wrote:I mean you should have seen my 4th edition Slaan, he was basically unstoppable.

Have you seen an 8th edition slann?

(Of course you have, if you play LM, and I don't mind them being powerful- they're the oldest/strongest wizards in the game, after all. But they're still a doozy!)

4th edition slaan would kick the crap out of 8th. They used to include the saurus carrying the palanquin as part of the model/unit. It had like 6 wounds, 6 attacks, toughness 8, st 6, ws 8 int 7 but back then initiative was more of a pointless stat. Plus they knew all sorts of magic, and had regeneration and a ward save and so much more. Slaan now are super weak combat wise, but only powerful at magic.

They have really toned down characters a ton since 3rd and 4th editions, but I still feel they bring an imbalance to the game. I think ranks and being able to attack back and steadfast huge improvements.

Characters really are meant to be strong in WHFB..it is "herohammer" after all...

but imbalance? i do not think so, not in 8th...they are powerful, as befits the nature of whfb...

Otherwise, you can play wh historic battles instead of whfb....no magic, and possibly less effect from thecharacters..

I guess I need to start cheesing out some heroes then....

I still think it is silly one guy can cause a stale mate to a 30+ model unit. I also think if you outnumber something by a certain number your hits and wounds should be easier on the dice rolls as you are rushing in, surrounding, and stabbing and cutting from every angle to a single model.

Crom, I think you and your mates should take a closer look at the 8th Ed rules. You guys were apparently doing quite a few things wrong.

I'm having tons of fun with 8th rules. They defiantly breathed life into the game. Getting nuked by the super spells can get annoying, but nothing is perfect.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:Crom, I think you and your mates should take a closer look at the 8th Ed rules. You guys were apparently doing quite a few things wrong.

I'm having tons of fun with 8th rules. They defiantly breathed life into the game. Getting nuked by the super spells can get annoying, but nothing is perfect.

To be honest I have always not been too fond of how powerful characters are in fantasy. I will admit we just got back into gaming and we do get rules wrong, but the last half dozen games we have played have been pretty on par with the rules.

Maybe the army opposing the chaos warriors lacked "hammer" units...basic infantry make good anvils due to steadfast, but you are correct in that a well tooled uber hero CAN win combats and grind them down...steadfast does not win combats..it is only useful if you lose combat, which is not something you want in every combat round.

So, the idea is to pin down powerful units with your anvils, then hit the pinned enemy with your hammers....having an army full of anvils but no hammers will end up an exercise in frustration for both sides...

so maybe a tweak in the list is in order then? If in doubt though, an additional cannon, or helblaster/organ gun will not go wrong if you are an empire or dwarf player...cannonball them dead before they reach you I say...

I had a unit of 35 Tzeentch Marauders with shields and light armour against 10 bloodletters. First round of combat I lost a good handful of marauders and caused no wounds back, had CR for banner and ranks and lost by about 2 - On Steadfast Ld8 (general was close) I still failed the check and was run down.

By the sounds of it, I should've stayed and beaten the snot out of the bloodletters because I was steadfast, but I didn't. Steadfast isn't game-breaking, it's basically just a stubborn unit, and I don't hear the Stubborn special rule getting any flak.

Soo bought and took a good look at the new O&G book, didnt see a single special character that could cause the type of carnage you were talking about...

Charging headlong into a full unit of saurus/TG with a slann in it would be suicide.

Im still fairly convinced there are only two things in that game that can take a unit 1v1 by themselves..

Arkaon the Everchosen, and a Bloodthirster

I started playing WHFB with the release of 8th edition. I've been playing 40K since 2000. As such, I have a few points:

1) For new players it's fine. GW wants you to buy Core choices, particularly lots of infantry. If you approach the game with this mindset you'll be fine.

2) I researched "viable" Armies prior to purchasing the 8th edition book. The consensus last July was that Warrior of Chaos are "top-tier." I wanted to have an even chance to win and I love Chaos (my 40K army since 3rd ed has been CSM) so I started a Tzeentch Warriors-based Army. The Army is very forgiving to new players. They remind me of Space Marines in this regard.

3) Magic is ridiculous but fun as hell. IMHO, 40K lacks this gut-wrenching, "what the hell is going happen in this phase," element.

Just some thoughts...

Yeah WoC are really strong this edition...

Best army tho, Pretty sure Skaven take that award, answer for everything.

ShivanAngel wrote:Soo bought and took a good look at the new O&G book, didnt see a single special character that could cause the type of carnage you were talking about...

Charging headlong into a full unit of saurus/TG with a slann in it would be suicide.

Im still fairly convinced there are only two things in that game that can take a unit 1v1 by themselves..

Arkaon the Everchosen, and a Bloodthirster

Not really, TG only have a 4+ save if you use Halberds, and they have initiative 2. So anything STR 6 or higher means no save. They are also very expensive, so I don't run big blocks. They basically just hide the Slaan in the unit, and are always stubborn and immune to psychology. Running a unit of 20 of them will cost you near 500 points. He also did not charge me full on, he flanked me. Always strikes first and higher initiative also means you get to reroll any misses. He tore into my unit that was already in combat with a chariot, and I destroyed all the guys but the character. Overall combat resolution wasn't that bad because it was a multiple combat. These also were not TG, they were sauruses.

Warriors of Chaos are freaking tough, best core troops in the game. I use skinks to chip their numbers down, and then hope my blocks can actually stand them. I had a frenzied block of 20 warrios versus a block of my saurus (25 count) and they wiped my lizards, and I mean slaughtered them big time.

Also the Great Unclean One, is ridiculous. He makes every model around him strike last with his cloud, his weapon does D3 wounds every wound, and he has 10 wounds himself. That thing can easily wipe units.

The reason I play whfb is because the models are cool. I just have started a Lizardmen army because I like the look of the army, not because of their abilities on the field. The question I ask myself now is: saurus or no saurus? I would like a full skink army but I think it will be weaker on the battlefield, but still I'm more inclined to take no saurus at all.

I don't here you guys about models and the look of your armies at all. I agree that playing a game is more fun if you win or if it was at least a nice battle, but what is equally important is the look of the models. And in this case the new rules regarding the winds of magic are of good use, even the bad army fielding Tehenhauin and Tetto'eko (for the non Lizardmen players: both are overpriced caster characters) can win the game.

It is difficult to take another open-minded look at whfb if you already played previous editions which you didn't liked, but it is worth trying. From my (newbie) point of view the game is pretty exciting. My army which is painted and modelled my way and designed to take on another army using my strategies is something to be proud of. Too bad that some people don't look any further than the rules and stats behind the models ^^

- Pim

Pimmilicious wrote:The reason I play whfb is because the models are cool. I just have started a Lizardmen army because I like the look of the army, not because of their abilities on the field. The question I ask myself now is: saurus or no saurus? I would like a full skink army but I think it will be weaker on the battlefield, but still I'm more inclined to take no saurus at all.

I don't here you guys about models and the look of your armies at all. I agree that playing a game is more fun if you win or if it was at least a nice battle, but what is equally important is the look of the models. And in this case the new rules regarding the winds of magic are of good use, even the bad army fielding Tehenhauin and Tetto'eko (for the non Lizardmen players: both are overpriced caster characters) can win the game.

It is difficult to take another open-minded look at whfb if you already played previous editions which you didn't liked, but it is worth trying. From my (newbie) point of view the game is pretty exciting. My army which is painted and modelled my way and designed to take on another army using my strategies is something to be proud of. Too bad that some people don't look any further than the rules and stats behind the models ^^

- Pim

Skink skirmishers! Use them, and get units of 20 and deploy them up front. They have blow pipes which do 2x shots each, skirmishers can march and shoot, and the blow pipes are quick to fire so no -1 to hit and they are poisioned weapons. Which means every 6 you roll to hit is an automatic wound. Oh, your war machine is toughness 7? Hmm, I just rolled 40 dice and got 8 6s.....so take 8 armor saves!


They dwindle down the numbers while your giant block units sit and wait to kill the remainders of them.

You can also use skrox units for ranks..but you will need a slann with the lore of life to make them really effective.....the slann should be tooled up them to be survivable (ethereal slann, magic carpet = flying slann who is hard to kill)..

Thus, flying ghost slann, skink skirmishers, skrox units, then heavy hitters like stegadons and also salamanders, and you got yourself an army..

I'm pretty sure that you can't give Slann a Magic Carpet, its the second question in the FAQ.

Also the Slann is not Ethereal, if it takes Higher State Of Consciousness, It ignores Non-Magical attacks. Which means it also ignores spells that aren't specified as Magic Missiles. Throw Unfathomable Presence on top of that and give him Shield Of The Mirrored Pool + Divine Plaque of Protection.

Down side is that you've used up 3 Disciplines so you can't take the Free Power Dice or Miscast Re-roll, unless you really want to forsake the Lore Master one.

Crom wrote:Skink skirmishers! Use them, and get units of 20 and deploy them up front. They have blow pipes which do 2x shots each, skirmishers can march and shoot, and the blow pipes are quick to fire so no -1 to hit and they are poisioned weapons. Which means every 6 you roll to hit is an automatic wound. Oh, your war machine is toughness 7? Hmm, I just rolled 40 dice and got 8 6s.....so take 8 armor saves!

Actually the pipes ain't quick to fire so if you move you must ither be in short range or not multyfire to hit on 6s.
Javelins are quick to fire however.

I really like having 1 fantasy army and 1 40k army, because I can choose two completely different settings and options; 40k allows for much more poseablilty while fantasy is much more on the overall look of a unit. Both are fun, I'll give them that, but I think of it like this( arguable, it's just my opinion)

Fantasy: Massive armies clashing in a long, long battle. Imagine a complex version of chess.

40k: Smaller forces that have much easier to learn rules, and is more of a slugfest of whoever is the shootiest better shoot the melee-men before they lose.

My $.02.

Eyclonus wrote:I'm pretty sure that you can't give Slann a Magic Carpet, its the second question in the FAQ.

Also the Slann is not Ethereal, if it takes Higher State Of Consciousness, It ignores Non-Magical attacks. Which means it also ignores spells that aren't specified as Magic Missiles. Throw Unfathomable Presence on top of that and give him Shield Of The Mirrored Pool + Divine Plaque of Protection.

Down side is that you've used up 3 Disciplines so you can't take the Free Power Dice or Miscast Re-roll, unless you really want to forsake the Lore Master one.

Ah yes forgot about the magic carpet ruling..tsk he just has to leg it then....

I think you can't give the slann the shield of the mirrored pool, as its magic armor..

I would tool the slann up with focus of mystery, focused rumination, and higher state of consciousness...give him the divine plaque of protection plus the cupped hands of the old ones, and that's it..still bloody expensive however...475 points for the frog...

The question is, in a game where said frog can nuke an opponent into submission, is he defended enough?

Are you sticking him in TG? I find they're bloody good at keeping him alive, especially if you throw Chakkax in there, he's great with his Always Strike Last power and his ability to cancel out uberpowered magic weapons.

Ah I was mentioning the above combination with regards to the previous post on a no saurus army..

I personally always take at least 16 TG to serve as the bunker for the slann. I use the above combo, but without the higher state of consciousness. Am also learning to always attempt to throw 3 dice when casting spells. I hate it when 2 1's come up and end your magic phase the moment you need it the most..

Thats what Cupped Hands are for, shifting the 1s onto some poor bugger...

Eyclonus wrote:Thats what Cupped Hands are for, shifting the 1s onto some poor bugger...

Actually 2 1's won't cause miscasts anymore, just 2 6's.

What it does is automatically end your magic phase, due to the "broken concentration" rule

freddieyu1 wrote:

Eyclonus wrote:Thats what Cupped Hands are for, shifting the 1s onto some poor bugger...

Actually 2 1's won't cause miscasts anymore, just 2 6's.

What it does is automatically end your magic phase, due to the "broken concentration" rule

I think he means if you roll snake eyes on the miscast table, which can result in instant death of your mage and all around it.