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I love fantasy. Good combos and timing tend to pay off more than in 40k.

The best solution to single model deathstars for us empire players...cannons...there is nothing that cannot be fixed with cannonballs....mwahahaha....

Or helblaster the unit first..once the other expensive juggernauts die, aim a cannon at the character when he cannot have a look out sir roll...

I love the new rules with the engineers...since even helblasters can now reroll a misfire result due to the engineer...

freddieyu1 wrote:The best solution to single model deathstars for us empire players...cannons...there is nothing that cannot be fixed with cannonballs....mwahahaha....

Or helblaster the unit first..once the other expensive juggernauts die, aim a cannon at the character when he cannot have a look out sir roll...

I love the new rules with the engineers...since even helblasters can now reroll a misfire result due to the engineer...

Just give your units ward saves. Shields give a ward save against missile weapons. Stegadons with engine of the gods can give a ward save to all models with in 12 inches. Plus since skirmishers can march and shoot, and all scouts are skirmers, watch them totally take out your war machine crew in the first turn.

I gotta tell you my new MVPs are Skinks. 4 units of 20 skinks with blow pipes skirmishing means I can march and unload 40 shots per a unit. Every roll of a 6 to hit is an automatic wound with jungle poisons.

Crom wrote:

Shields give a ward save against missile weapons.

no they dont.

A single model would have to win combat by a huge margin to have any hope of breaking a stubborn unit of Saurus, that must have been a fluke.

ShivanAngel wrote:

Crom wrote:

Shields give a ward save against missile weapons.

no they dont.

Yes they do, it is called a parry save and is a 6+ ward save, but rereading the rule it looks like it only counts in hand to hand combat.

Crom wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:

Crom wrote:

Shields give a ward save against missile weapons.

no they dont.

Yes they do, it is called a parry save and is a 6+ ward save, but rereading the rule it looks like it only counts in hand to hand combat.

yeah parry is only hand to hand.

I always have a ward save via my Stegadons which is better so I use it. My elites usually use halberds so no shields, and my skirmishers use blow pipes for two shots

Overall, I find fantasy to be far more fun and balanced than 40K. Interestingly, after years of banging the fantasy drum for 6th and the start of 7th edition, it seems that a lot of experienced 40K are starting to take notice of "the other system." Eighth has, in my experience, been a major improvement in terms of fantasy's profile around here. It's still the less-supported of the two, no doubt about that. But now at least people are talking about it.

Personally, my one major gripe about it has been TLOS and missile weapons and spells.

But beyond that, I'm fairly pleased. Far more than I have been with the development of 40K into a very vehicle-centric demolition derby, in fact. I have to admit, I even like the random terrain rules, except when you have three or four different types of forest on one board. As annoying and frustrating as it can be sometimes, the psychological effect of not knowing can create some unique and interesting tactical situations.

As for Lords being able to wade through a bunch of rank and file troops... I'm torn. In my mind, if you put 400 points worth of character and gear up against 300 points of knights, there SHOULD be a legitimate chance for the combat to go either way. That's what the points are for - to balance the relative strengths and weaknesses of individual units. Not taking those things into account in every phase and turn from deployment on isn't a failure of the game system, it's a failure of strategy.

So far in 8th, I've played Tomb Kings, Goblins, Empire, Dwarves, and High Elves. In no situation have I ever felt that I've been doomed from the get-go by any list or vagary of rules. If I've lost, it's been because I made a mistake somewhere on the board - usually in deployment or failing to take into account the range of incantations. I've had FAR better experiences in WHFB than I have in 40K, to the point where I'm not even sure where my marines ARE right now, much less where they are in the painting queue.

When comparing 40K to Fantasy, incidentally, it's a mistake to measure model-to-model. Imperial Guard and Orks excluded, 40K armies aren't the same "wall of beef" model that fantasy is - and always has been - based on. To say that template weapons can't hit the same number of models is a bit misleading when the sizes of squads are so small in 40K and when just about everybody is carrying some form of template weapon to go pick up the mail.

I think it really comes down to preference of lore. Do you prefer scifi or fantasy? As far as rules go, 40K is well more balanced, faster paced, and doesn't have as large impact from bad dice rolls. Roll a snake eyes on your magic phase and you might as well just skip it.

As for the lord characters. here is my problem with them. Last game some Orc Lord special character guy, the one who rides a special war bar had a war banner that gave all units with in 18" his leadership. He charged my stegadon, and tried to kill the stegadon itself. He plus 9 other boar riders. He did 4 wounds to the stegadon total as my armor and ward saves saved the rest. I then proceeded to kill off all 9 of his boar warriors, so he lost the combat by 5, and he passed his leadership test because he is always stubborn or something. Next turn he slaughtered my stegadon, then during his turn he flanked a unit of 35 saurus warriors with a slaan and a spawning champion in them and just proceeded to slaughter them. Since it was on the flank I could only attack back once until I could reform and face him. He was just one guy versus 30 normal guys, one lord mage, and 1 champion. It tied me up for the rest of the game and by the time I killed him there wasn't anything else I could do due to other models or terrain in the way. Whenever a single model, be it a hero on a mount, or a lord character on a mount or on foot, or a monstrous creature and you attack a unit, the unit should be allowed to surround you, because that is what should happen. All those in the back ranks surrounding you should get automatic hits, because there is no way one single model can ever block 30+ spears coming at him. That unit of mine was expensive, near 900 points because of the Slaan and the scar vet. Now since the new magic system is dumb and bad dice rolls mean no magic, and that you can only ever get a maximum of 12 power dice limits you in a larger game.

Oh and he kept trying to challenge me as well, which I wasn't going to do since he had a higher initiative and an always strike first item, which means he gets to reroll misses. Why they stack those rules on top of each other is beyond me. I wasn't going to allow for an overkill on the combat resolution and I wanted to actually strike back. I think the magic system is very broken. Chaos Magic costs nothing to cast, and they have spells that affect whole armies, which is dumb. Me being a Lizardmen player I am pretty much always stuck getting life magic. Having such a low initiative means I am going to take some guaranteed losses, and sometimes they are heavy. I have seen units take out 20 models out of the 30 model unit before in one turn. If I could not resurrect them I would just be hosed.

I have used the same tactics before. You toss one unit or one model at a unit not to beat them in combat, but to tie them up for the whole game if you can. It just pushes out the stale mate, and then you have tarpit units that regenerate, or have really dumb ward saves. At least in 40K there is instant death, and there really isn't any Lord/Hero running around that is that bad ass in 40K.

I guess I don't like the fantasy roleplay aspect of a single wizard or warrior going in and slaying thousands of enemy soldiers. I prefer to be the general and command my overall army to win. I really don't care for any role play aspect of a Lord or Hero character. The lack of missions is also very boring. Every game is pretty much kill points. I am awesome taking out other people's troops and war machines. In fact I annihilate them all the time. I always have trouble taking out lords and heroes that have ridiculous items or special rules. I wipe the unit the lord is with, but then stuck in the same combat for 4 turns trying to kill him.....

To say that template weapons can't hit the same number of models is a bit misleading when the sizes of squads are so small in 40K and when just about everybody is carrying some form of template weapon to go pick up the mail.

There's also the fact that there are a good number of templates ranging from the S4 frag missile to the S9 Demolisher, whereas in Fantasy templates rarely exceed S3-5. Where in 40k a template can wound you on 2s and then instagib you, in fantasy it'll be wounding on 3s and 4s and 5s with a good number of models keeping some form of save. It's only a single model underneath any centre holes of blasts that really takes the full hit.

You also need to factor in the chance for Fantasy template weapons (or the majority of them) to misfire and either not be able to shoot or kill itself.

If you fire a regular stone thrower at a horde of 40 marauders with light armour and shields and hit 15 of them with 1 under the hole included, then you get the following:

1x 2s to kill.
14x 4s to wound

The guy under the hole gets squished and 7 are wounded and proceed to take 5+ armour saves, meaning a grand total of 4.669 dead marauders, which is about 5, and means you've killed just under 1/3 of what you originally hit.

Now, if that was a unit of missile launchers in 40k (assume devastators with MLs, just a neat all-purpose unit that isn't out of the ordinary) vs a unit of 20 gaunts, you'd have 4 missile templates flying around needing 3s to kill.

Since it's hard to mis a tyranid swarm, we can safely assume 2 hits per template (not everybody has the patience to space every single gaunt perfectly). 8 Hits needing 3s to kill yields 5.336 (rounded 6.66 recurring up to 66.7%) dead gaunts.

It was a smaller unit than the marauders, but they still took more casualties.

You should have taken that challenge tbh...

He gets at max, 6 cr, with overkill.

You get 3 for ranks, 1 for banner, and hopefully your slann is your bsb. so your at 5... If that orc did enough to get the wound plus 5 overkill his dice were amazing. However he probly shouldnt so you win the tie with the musician.

Also, whats the rest of your army doing... if one lord level character is holding up an entire 900 point unit for the whole game you are doing something wrong. he should be rear charged, flanked, or something similar and torn to shreds. (or dont invest 900 points into a single unit that can be pitted)

Again the only lord level character I have seen take on full units against competent players is a Thirster, and that is well over 500 points for one lord. (and I wouldnt dare charge him into a slann/TG unit)

AGAIN If a lord is holding up an entire unit for the whole game you need to look at your list or your tactics, cause you are doing something wrong.

Me being a Lizardmen player I am pretty much always stuck getting life magic. Having such a low initiative means I am going to take some guaranteed losses, and sometimes they are heavy.

Then take Lore of Light instead?

I haven't played much 8th at all yet, but I don't like the "top level" spells in the various lores. I think they are just too powerful.

Lore of Heavens. Tell me sincerely that Chain Lightning doesn't suck.

Okay, so you can find an exception. Does that make me wrong about the other lores?
Is Throne of Vines a balanced spell? It's not top level, but it's the spell from life you WANTS.
Perhaps I should have said "certain spells, with a bias towards the higher casting values, are overpowered."

I'm not against powerful magic, per se, but the fact that all you have to do is throw double sixes to get it off irresistably is the problem. If they did away with both miscasts and irresistable force, it might make things better.

Does that make me wrong about the other lores?

Okkam's Mindrazor is situational, Flame Storm is sub-par, Final Transmution is sub-par/balanced, Birona's Timewarp is balanced/slighty undercosted for the primary cast, dwellers below is reasonable/slightly overpowered against armies with S3 or lower, Purple Sun is undercosted for it's primary cast. Transformation of Kadon is slightly undercosted for both casts.

ShivanAngel wrote:You should have taken that challenge tbh...

He gets at max, 6 cr, with overkill.

You get 3 for ranks, 1 for banner, and hopefully your slann is your bsb. so your at 5... If that orc did enough to get the wound plus 5 overkill his dice were amazing. However he probly shouldnt so you win the tie with the musician.

Also, whats the rest of your army doing... if one lord level character is holding up an entire 900 point unit for the whole game you are doing something wrong. he should be rear charged, flanked, or something similar and torn to shreds. (or dont invest 900 points into a single unit that can be pitted)

Again the only lord level character I have seen take on full units against competent players is a Thirster, and that is well over 500 points for one lord. (and I wouldnt dare charge him into a slann/TG unit)

AGAIN If a lord is holding up an entire unit for the whole game you need to look at your list or your tactics, cause you are doing something wrong.

My other unit, which consisted of another Slaan, Temple Guard, an Old blood, a scar vet and a spawning champion with the army battle standard and another magical standard was holding the 40 man horde unit of Chaos warriors, with a lord Tzeench mage, a champion of chaos, and they had a 2+ freaking ward save against all magical attacks.

It was a 4,000 point game, and to be honest, my skinks were the most effective unit on the table. One turn they took out a whole unit of 5 heavy chaos knights. Gotta love jungle poisons. When you are rolling 40 dice at one unit you are gonna get some 6s.

I don't have the army lists availalbe but it was 4,000 points and this is what I took

2x slaan with cupped hands one life one light magic

2x skink priests on ancient stegs with engine of the gods

100 skink skirmishers (5x units of 20)

2x units of 3 salamanders with extra handlers

1x unit of sauraus with spears, shield, champ

1x unit of TG with heroes

1 regular stegadon

I was at a total of like 4,004 points and they let me go over 4 points.

They had:

rock lobber

heavy bolter

black orcs

boar boyz

night gobbos

a massive horde of chaos warriors with some chaos heroes and a lord tzeench mage

several gobbo shamans

unit of chaos knights

chaos shrine

and something else I am not remembering.....like I said I don't have the army lists in front of me.

We rolled terrain, there was a large marsh on one side. I took that side to hide my salamanders in it and shoot him while the skinks danced around and did a ton of blow gun fire, while my block units sat behind the marsh forcing my enemy to come at me. My tactics were, shoot them to hades and back, and then buff and heal with magic, and if opportunity becomes open to do an offensive spell then do so. Ancient stegs were positioned behind cover (buildings and woods) and placed in a fashion which gave my whole army a 5+ ward save.

I took out the night goblins, the other goblins, one goblin mage, the black orks, the ork boyz, the chaos knights with the hero on the juggernaut, all the boar boyz but the stupid lord. Once the frenzied chaos knights with their dumb ward save and their lords got close it was super hard for me to catch up. They also got that spell off that turns my whole army into basic leadership rolls no matter what, which is dumb it affects the WHOLE army.

Like I said, I could have won, but conceded defeat because I just didn't want to drag the game out for another 2 hours to see who won, we had already been playing for like 4 or 5 hours. The game ended with me pretty much destroying all the ork units, half of the giant chaos warrior horde (which would have been the most impossible unit to kill for me that game), and that stupid ork general causing a win in a combine combat between that saurus unit, the chaos shrine, the few black orks left, and like 4 goblins versus my sauraus, slaan, and one unit of salamanders. Oh, and there was an ork chariot in there too. That is was the catalyst. The Orcs charged the salamanders to tie them up for at least one turn, then the chariot flanked, then I flanked the chariot then the stupid orc boos flanks and he was the huge tie breaker since it was all one giant combat.

I lost, that one round due to him flanking me and adding like 5 extra wounds, and canceling out my flank bonus since he flanked my flank. Like I said it was one model, and it was dumb he could just do that. I think I probably could have won the game had I stuck to my plan of forcing them through the marsh and me attacking from outside but at that point I was just tired of playing. Tired of magic never working out, tired of relying on dice rolls, tired of things being caught up in combat for 3+ turns, and so forth.

I think if you outnumber something you should get bonuses to hit and bonuses to wound, that way you cannot charge a single large thing or tough boss type model in to hang up combat for 4 turns. With all the multiple saves they used with spells and gear every hero had armor, ward, and some even had regen on top of that.

Maybe I am just biased, since I do find scifi more fascinating, but I wish GW would scale down fantasy to where characters were support roles instead of demi Gods on the battle field.

and they had a 2+ freaking ward save against all magical attacks.

Do you remember how they gained this? Nothing I can find can give a WoC unit a 2+ ward save against magical attacks...

Avatar 720 wrote:

and they had a 2+ freaking ward save against all magical attacks.

Do you remember how they gained this? Nothing I can find can give a WoC unit a 2+ ward save against magical attacks...

Magic resistance added to a ward save via items banner and abilities I believe. He also did roll awesome on his chaos gifts from the shrine.

Magic Resistance only works against spell damage (not any magical attack), the only chaos banner that gives a ward save is against all attacks in the shooting phase and is a 5+, the shrine at best gives a 4+ ward save. The best ward save he could have is the gift from the shrine + Mark of Tzeentch, which improves it by 1 to 3+.

Avatar 720 wrote:Magic Resistance only works against spell damage (not any magical attack), the only chaos banner that gives a ward save is against all attacks in the shooting phase and is a 5+, the shrine at best gives a 4+ ward save. The best ward save he could have is the gift from the shrine + Mark of Tzeentch, which improves it by 1 to 3+.

I am not 100% familiar with all the Chaos stuff I can just ask him how he got it. I mean it was a friendly game so I highly doubt anyone was cheating. Regardless, I took out at least 50% or more of their army before they could even charge me, so I really out numbered them, but since they had some characters and one mega unit and some spells in play it dragged the game out so long and was so slow. My salamanders were in combat for 4+ turns, and I had 3 of them will a full skink crew versus the Chaos Shrine. When you outnumber something like that you should get bonuses to hit and to wound since you are basically over whelming it with numbers.

I will admit I was on fire with my engine of the Gods ward saves. I passed almost all of them consistently.

In the end the MVPs of the game were the skinks, they took out so much and were so cheap point-wise.


OH and I meant, magic attacks, as in spells, not magical. I actually never got into combat with the Chaos Warrior unit, it was a game of cold war and I was drawing him near my horde block of sauruses. My goal was to get off stone to flesh and/or the WS 10 I 10 light spell and chip away the chaos warriors then have my TG finish them off. At the rate it was going and the terrain lay out it would have taken forever, so I just flipped over my king due to the fact I was completely tired of playing.

Normally we don't play 4,000 point battles either.

Crom wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:Magic Resistance only works against spell damage (not any magical attack), the only chaos banner that gives a ward save is against all attacks in the shooting phase and is a 5+, the shrine at best gives a 4+ ward save. The best ward save he could have is the gift from the shrine + Mark of Tzeentch, which improves it by 1 to 3+.

I am not 100% familiar with all the Chaos stuff I can just ask him how he got it. I mean it was a friendly game so I highly doubt anyone was cheating. Regardless, I took out at least 50% or more of their army before they could even charge me, so I really out numbered them, but since they had some characters and one mega unit and some spells in play it dragged the game out so long and was so slow. My salamanders were in combat for 4+ turns, and I had 3 of them will a full skink crew versus the Chaos Shrine. When you outnumber something like that you should get bonuses to hit and to wound since you are basically over whelming it with numbers.

I will admit I was on fire with my engine of the Gods ward saves. I passed almost all of them consistently.

In the end the MVPs of the game were the skinks, they took out so much and were so cheap point-wise.


OH and I meant, magic attacks, as in spells, not magical. I actually never got into combat with the Chaos Warrior unit, it was a game of cold war and I was drawing him near my horde block of sauruses. My goal was to get off stone to flesh and/or the WS 10 I 10 light spell and chip away the chaos warriors then have my TG finish them off. At the rate it was going and the terrain lay out it would have taken forever, so I just flipped over my king due to the fact I was completely tired of playing.

Normally we don't play 4,000 point battles either.

Maybe he was not cheating, but just "misunderstood" the rules.....

Terrain is alos much friendlier in terms of movement in 8th ed...1 thing I like now is that you can play an a battlefield cluttered with terrain, and this does not slow you down one bit, although it may make you take hits or tests though...

I do want to point out that I totally understand that if you don't enjoy the game, no amount of fanboy boosterism is going to change your mind. My saying "combat is balanced just fine!" isn't going to change how you feel about sending your ranks of sauruses into the mouth of a Cuisinart character. If it isn't fun, it isn't fun.

Myself, I think that there's been a HUGE push on the part of GW for bigger and bigger battles, to the detriment of the game itself. On a 4x6 or 4x8 table, anything over 3000 points a side starts hindering the ability for players to actually use tactics or to implement a real strategy.

Apocalypse has been - in my view - a step backward for the hobby as a whole. The epic scale of full battlefield warfare is better captured by... well... Epic. Of course, I'm also the cranky old fart that prefers Cities of Death games to be played on 4x4 tables with smaller points limits. I like the Necromunda/Mordheimesque balance of paranoia and predatory instincts over the current "throw more armor at it."

But, larger point battles look good on the table (provided you don't get too fussy about having options as to where to move) and in magazines, and it makes GW a lot of money - especially with the new push to more and more plastic sculpts. If rumors are to believed, the Apoc bug will soon dribble over to fantasy, so I'll be in the minority again.

But in all seriousness, with the "get off my lawn" out of my system, if you're not having fun with WHFB (or 40K, for that matter), try scaling back the points a bit and playing it at 1500-2500 for a while. At least in my experience, that's where the fun is.

Strelka wrote:I do want to point out that I totally understand that if you don't enjoy the game, no amount of fanboy boosterism is going to change your mind. My saying "combat is balanced just fine!" isn't going to change how you feel about sending your ranks of sauruses into the mouth of a Cuisinart character. If it isn't fun, it isn't fun.

Myself, I think that there's been a HUGE push on the part of GW for bigger and bigger battles, to the detriment of the game itself. On a 4x6 or 4x8 table, anything over 3000 points a side starts hindering the ability for players to actually use tactics or to implement a real strategy.

Apocalypse has been - in my view - a step backward for the hobby as a whole. The epic scale of full battlefield warfare is better captured by... well... Epic. Of course, I'm also the cranky old fart that prefers Cities of Death games to be played on 4x4 tables with smaller points limits. I like the Necromunda/Mordheimesque balance of paranoia and predatory instincts over the current "throw more armor at it."

But, larger point battles look good on the table (provided you don't get too fussy about having options as to where to move) and in magazines, and it makes GW a lot of money - especially with the new push to more and more plastic sculpts. If rumors are to believed, the Apoc bug will soon dribble over to fantasy, so I'll be in the minority again.

But in all seriousness, with the "get off my lawn" out of my system, if you're not having fun with WHFB (or 40K, for that matter), try scaling back the points a bit and playing it at 1500-2500 for a while. At least in my experience, that's where the fun is.

I agree...makes for faster games as well.......1.5 k for 40k and 2k for whfb seems to be the "optimal" pointage for both systems....

I know it may be seen a dilution of effort, but I wish GW would push warmaster and epic more...I mean don't you think these systems would do better than the LotR/WoTR? I have 2 1.5k warmaster armies (dwarfs and o and g) bought all the way back in the year 2003, but I haven't played a single game yet..due to no opponents...nice little minis though.....and I would love to start epic armaggedon, as I think the rules are good...

sounds like the debate on fantasy is pretty 50-50

freddieyu1 wrote:

I agree...makes for faster games as well.......1.5 k for 40k and 2k for whfb seems to be the "optimal" pointage for both systems....

I'd say 2.5k for WHFB thanks to the percent systems, but other wise I agree.

That said, I'm someone who comes from starting out playing BFGs with my friends(but in 2nd and then 3rd way before Apocalypse was introduced) where 5-6 of us throw down with everything we own.

Slipknotsomeone wrote:sounds like the debate on fantasy is pretty 50-50

It depends on the forum, some are 100/0 in favour, some are 0/100 not in favour.

There's only so much that can be expressed through opinions and anecdotes, really the best thing you can do is find an army you like and ask someone who knows the rules if they could teach you if you were allowed to proxy the models.

If you're into HE/Skaven, then you might even be able to ask a GW manager to walk you through the game. GW love newcomers to systems, and any opportunity to sell a starter set will be jumped on, plus GW managers generally know the rules and won't cheat.

If you like the feel of the rules, ask around for people can help you learn more by playing a few lower point games or help you with your list building (that's our job ).

If you go into it thinking it's going to be terrible, you won't enjoy it. You could be eating the most delicious food on Earth, but if you bite into it having convinced yourself it tastes horrible, it will taste horrible. Go into it with as much of a neutral opinion as possible.

Fantasy in 8th isn't broken. And the Juggerlord isn't unkillable, that stupid re-roll to hit hardly means he's killing whole units. I'm crap with numbers, but Mathammer, real life, and other situations should prove that point. Juggerlord vs 30+ Gors? My money is on the Gors. Herohammer is (thankfully) dead.

As for the game, there's dumb parts of it, certainly. Many changes were made for the sake of making changes. Honestly, my group mixes 7th with 8th, (mostly random charges and musician rules, some of the stuff is wonky crap) But 8th isn't a terrible mess. 1,500-2,500 is, as mentioned, the sweet spot. Hell, I do fine at 1,750-2,000. The game isn't perfect, but it's not a mess. It just tends to be wonky at times.

IMHO, keep the models, WHFB's fun and if you can get a group, it's worth it.

well i have 30 ghouls, 20 zombies, a cart, 2 lords, one mounted on a steed, 10 wolves

i cant remember where i placed my codex for them at the moment. i woud LOVE to play fantasy that way i can play it while im building up my 40k armies.