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I've been interested in the harpy too, and since we're slowly getting back on track, how would you play it correctly?
As mentioned, the harpy is extremly fragile for a MC, and will probably be shoot down pretty early if it starts on the board, and since venom cannons are pretty useless against vehicles imo (the fact that they are blast weapons is one of the biggest flaws in the codex, except for lictors not being able to assualt the same turn they apear, but that's just me loving lictors xP), the only thing they can be used for is to bring 2 pie plates of infantry killer to the table. But since cluster spine only has a range of 18'', that will be tought to accomplish before the harpy is shoot down. So I would DS the harpies and suprise my opponent with two large blast from nowhere. This could be a good way to take out long fangs and other long range heavy weapon infantry too. Of course, the next turn they'll probably get pummeld into the dirt, but if they can manage to take some heavy weapons with them and possibly draw some fire from your trygon, I'd say they've filled their roll nicely. Then again, 160 point for a DS distraction is alot and pretty unrelible.
So now that I've stated the obvious, I'd like to hear some more ideas if there are any.

I dislike harpies myself, here's why.

170+ points for 1 S9 shot, T5, W4 and a 4+ save. They are around 3 times as vulnerable to bolter/lasgun/pulse rifle fire as a tyrant, 4+ times as vulnerable to heavy bolters, autocannons, missile pods and other S5-S7 AP4 weapons. In a "take all comers" scenario people do tend to take a fair amount of autocannons/lootas, and harpies make a really optimal target for them. Not to mention that odd list where a random S10 shot splats it in 1 hit which isn't as rare as you'd think. Thunderwolves (BIG charge range), Vindicators, Lysander, Rail-guns, tyranno-fexes, carnifexes and even the dark eldar have a couple shot only S10 attacks (I think). Throw in the fact that to do the spore mine drop you pretty much have to be within a few inches of enemy units, which if equipped with a powerfist will ruin it's day. Hell, the powerfist isn't even really necessary, I'd wager a tactical squad would be able to drop the harpy in combat if they felt like it.

So IMO, they aren't particularly tough, especially compared to a flyrant, trygon (for only 30ish points more), carnifex or even 170ish points of warriors, shrikes or gargoyles.

Then there's the hitting power issue. I'm not going to debate the usefulness of single S9 shot. Some people (like me) think that's AWFUL for 170 points, some people will take whatever ranged firepower they can get post hive guard/zoans. Call it an unfair comparison if you'd like (different armies aren't the same!!) but I see 170 point anti-tank and I compare it to a BA triple lascannon predator which is around the same. It's potentially faster (18" fast move vs 12" flying), tougher (Armor 13/11/10, hell, 11/11/10 would likely be better then a harpy), and throws down close to 3 times the fire power in exchange for the ability to fight in HtH and fly. Not to mention it's firepower is Ap2. Using an anti-infantry setup is probably even worse, as 3 biovores will rock a harpy's socks off, for less points and a less vulnerable unit.

So IMO, it can't outgun similar points of stuff from many other armies.

So what does that leave? The special rules aren't very, erm, special. The spore mines are extremely short ranged and augment the tyranids already spectacular anti-infantry ability, so it's somewhat redundant, and it's scream ability isn't all that great if you are using it as a gun platform. The only time I've considered one is in 2000+ point games where 6 Hive Guard and 3 Zoans are the extent of my range firepower and I feel I need a little bit more. For ~90 points more I feel you'd be better off going with a Tyranno-fex though.

The harpy has 2 rolls it can fulfill. Anti-infantry (preferably hoard) or Tank SUPPRESSION.

The anti-hoard option is its stronger role. with 2 Large blast weapons at s5-6 and the next to useless spore mine cyst, it can kill blobs of infantry with ease. The Cluster spines may only have an 18" range, but the moving like jump infantry means that the total threat range to opponents is 30". The reason this potion is overlooked so often is fairly obvious. A vast majority of the codex is anti-infantry, so adding another model for that rather than trying to help defeat tanks is a pretty worthless option.

The tank suppression option has the HVC. Tyranids have never been fond of vehicles, so it comes to no shock that the HVC still is weak against vehicles, even with a set S at 9. the HVC isn't made to kill vehicles... just slow them down. And, playing as long as I have, I can tell you it is NOT fun when your shooting oriented tank can't do anything because your opponent glanced it. Even extra armor does what? You can move... but you still can't shoot. Chaos space marines (which their possessed) and Grey knights (with fortification) are the only ones whose shooting units wont care.

The harpy probably isn't worth the monstrous amounts of points (see what i did there) you are paying for it. There are better units for the roll, and often those cost less.


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So IMO, they aren't particularly tough, especially compared to a flyrant, trygon (for only 30ish points more), carnifex or even 170ish points of warriors, shrikes or gargoyles.

In an all comers situartion... never ever take warriors... you will cry when you get into the game and realize how much of a point sink... and absolute waist of those points... you they are. T4 means that way to much insta-kills them, they are slow (and in the shrikes case... bolters). Missile launchers, S8+ large blasts (I'm looking at you imperial guard), hidden powerfists in close combat. They are very sub par.

Now if we assumed that they always got an armor save and never got insta-squished, then they are just as survivable as terminators. But this is almost never the case. Small arms fore they can take. Anything else, not so much.

wisdomseyes1 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

So IMO, they aren't particularly tough, especially compared to a flyrant, trygon (for only 30ish points more), carnifex or even 170ish points of warriors, shrikes or gargoyles.

In an all comers situartion... never ever take warriors... you will cry when you get into the game and realize how much of a point sink... and absolute waist of those points... you they are. T4 means that way to much insta-kills them, they are slow (and in the shrikes case... bolters). Missile launchers, S8+ large blasts (I'm looking at you imperial guard), hidden powerfists in close combat. They are very sub par.

Now if we assumed that they always got an armor save and never got insta-squished, then they are just as survivable as terminators. But this is almost never the case. Small arms fore they can take. Anything else, not so much.

You are just reinforcing my point. If warriors > harpy, and warrior = bad, then harpy is worse then bad in terms of survivability.

You are reffering only to its survivability though...

I would prefer 1 harpy with a Venom cannon over 9 shrikes... even though the shrikes are far more points, the Harpy is exponentially more useful.

wisdomseyes1 wrote:You are reffering only to its survivability though...

I would prefer 1 harpy with a Venom cannon over 9 shrikes... even though the shrikes are far more points, the Harpy is exponentially more useful.

I have to disagree with this.

I think that Shrikes are far more useful, in a variety of ways than a Harpy. let's look at this from a points perspective

For 165 Points, you can get three Shrikes with LW & BS, Toxin Sacs, and Devourers. These Shrikes have Synapse, SitW, and move like Jump Infantry. They are also much smaller, and easy to get cover for. These Shrikes out preform the Harpy in Close Combat quite easily, with the superior WS and Weapons load out. As well as having a shooting advantage in some cases. They can pump out 9 STR 4 shots, at the same BS skill as a Harpy. Sometimes, those shots will be more effective than a Stranglethorn cannon, or a Heavy Venom Cannon blast, and they have the ability to follow up in close combat.

While the Harpy is the winner when it comes to Vehicles, it only has 3 attacks on the charge, and even with 2d6 penetration you're still looking at starting out at str 5, which isn't the best odds. You also have the ability to adapt Shrikes to your local Meta, and they are much much more survivable. To tell you the truth, I think the only reason people don't take them is because of proliferation of STR 8 weaponry. Of course, the Harpy isn't immune to Instant death either.

So, to tell you the truth I think Shrikes are Exponentially more useful than Harpies, they excel in multiple areas, and most importantly, they have adaptability.

Im going to ask how much anti-infantry you already have in your army... if very little, then that makes sense. Otherwise... I need to ask if you need that...

"The harpy isn't immune to ID either"

Which should only be applying against tau... unless you let it get close enough for most other things to matter. S8 on the other hand... every army has. So you are more likely to instant squish a Shrike than you are a harpy.

And then of course their are bolters. At any range that the shrikes are effective.. the will be in rapid fire range. Assuming all cover all the time (which is honestly not a realistic assumption) 10 marines pump out 20 shots that hit on 3's and wound on 4's. Then you get a cover save (maybe... though you still have to take dangerous terrain to get that assuming you got into terrain)

Harpies get wounded on 5's and do in fact get their save against small arms fire, assuming the harpy chooses to get that close.

I never liked warriors because of their low speed. I looked at shrikes and though they were awesome. I got them in game (via proxies, unit of 5) and found myself sad.

In a few games I have proxied my tyrgon as a harpy. Don't get me wrong, i wasn't impressed. But at least it did something before it went down...

wisdomseyes1 wrote:Im going to ask how much anti-infantry you already have in your army... if very little, then that makes sense. Otherwise... I need to ask if you need that...

"The harpy isn't immune to ID either"

Which should only be applying against tau... unless you let it get close enough for most other things to matter. S8 on the other hand... every army has. So you are more likely to instant squish a Shrike than you are a harpy.

And then of course their are bolters. At any range that the shrikes are effective.. the will be in rapid fire range. Assuming all cover all the time (which is honestly not a realistic assumption) 10 marines pump out 20 shots that hit on 3's and wound on 4's. Then you get a cover save (maybe... though you still have to take dangerous terrain to get that assuming you got into terrain)

Harpies get wounded on 5's and do in fact get their save against small arms fire, assuming the harpy chooses to get that close.

I never liked warriors because of their low speed. I looked at shrikes and though they were awesome. I got them in game (via proxies, unit of 5) and found myself sad.

In a few games I have proxied my tyrgon as a harpy. Don't get me wrong, i wasn't impressed. But at least it did something before it went down...

In some lists, even if you have abundant anti-Infantry, it also pays to have units that can be used that can jump quickly across the board and that can be geared toward your current meta. You can always throw rending claws and Adrenel glands on them, for poping most rear armor. With a Harpy, you can either gear him for one large blast for Anti-infantry, or you Gear it for stunning tanks. And honestly for the points it just doesn't have good enough preformance in either of the roles.

And using examples like rapid firing bolters is silly. It's not a vacuum. You can say the same thing for Lascannons, or Missile launchers for Harpies. it takes one round of firing from a longfang squad, at 48" to down a Harpy, with no Save, and very likely no cover Save either. See? that kind of argument is silly, because there are dozens of examples of logic like that for each army. Not to mention, there are more than Railguns that have STR 10, just because Tau has the market on doesn't mean you shouldn't take into account other armies. But in truth, A Harpy has a better chance to Draw Massed STR 8 Fire than Shrikes do. It's just too large of a Target.

I've had the exact opposite effect when I've Run Shrikes. I use them in small groups like 3, it's easy to get cover, and they can maneuver and stay out of LOS very easy. Harpies on the other hand always seem to go down on Turn 1 and 2. They are just to big of a target, and everyone Aims their Anti-Tank weapons at it.

In my opinion, Rippers and Harpies are the worst FA options we have, Followed by Shrikes. Shrikes aren't the optium choice either, but I feel they are significantly better than Harpies. Raveners can be very useful, and have an exceptional assault range, while Gargoyles are worth their weight in gold, and are the king when it comes to our FA options.

My example for rapid fire was brought up only because missiles and other anti-tank was already mentioned. I don't like repeating what has been said ^_^

S10 from other armies is very very limited.

I guess it depends on how your army is constructed. Past my tervigans, i have no monstrous creatures in most lists. If I take the harpy... my opponent still shoots into the tervigans to get rid of my ability to create FnP, gants, and the 3D6 deathcries of my poor broodmother. The harpy is basically ignored.

Actually... your opponents familiarity with tyranids would also serve a key role. Opponents with many... lets just use razorbacks as an example, would be far more worried about a harpy than Shrikes. At the same time... wile the harpy may die, the reason the shrikes are living is because they are useless in the situation given.

No one is trying to claim shrikes are a GOOD unit here, because they aren't. They suffer the same issues as warriors really and you understand that.

But we are saying that compared to a harpy, shrikes don't stack up too badly.

Average (3 shrikes, 4+ cover in brackets);

Bolter shots to kill shrikes; 27 (54)
Bolter shots to kill harpy; 36 (36)
Autocannon shots to kill shrikes; 16 (32)
Autocannon shots to kill harpy; 7.2 (14.4)
Missiles to kill shrikes; 5.4 (10.8)
Missiles to kill harpy; 7.2 (14.4)
S10 shots to kill shrikes; 5.4 (10.8)
S10 shots to kill harpy; 1.8 (3.6)

So if both are in cover, the harpy only stands up to S8 and S9 attacks better. In the open it's marginally better against small arms due to the 4+ save. S10 wrecks harpies and isn't as uncommon as you seem to think. Besides the railguns you have stuff like dreadnoughts/dreadknights, T-hammer equipped GK stuff, Lysander, Vindicator, Arjec, Thunderwolf cavalry or lord with fist/hammer, BA librarians and Mephiston, DE have a few 1 shot S10 attacks, enemy nid players with a tyrannofex or carnifex, IG manticores and medusas...etc etc etc. The list is extensive. Also have to worry about jaws of the world wolf and it's GK version as well as force weapons and other ID toys from DE.

It's a fragile platform with crumby damage output and no useful synergy with other units. If you wanted 170ish points of anti-infantry get 17 devigaunts, 21 fully upgraded gargoyles or 3 biovores. If you want 170 points of anti-tank get 3 HG or 3 Zoans. If you want 170 points that's good against both get a hive tyrant, 10 toxin genestealers, 7 ymgarls, a Tervigon or a Trygon or something. Better choices all around.

Liking a harpy is fine, it's a cool concept and potentially cool modeling opportunity, but don't mistake it for being good.

Edit; apparently double ninjaed, basically agreed with Sasori.

I just played a game taking 3 units I think get no love: Harpy, Lictor, and Mawloc.

Here is the report card:

Lictor: B
Harpy: C
Mawloc: D

The Lictor popped up and shot the back of a razorback, blowing it up. The guys inside then go assaulted by stealers and wiped out. After that, there wasn't much for him to do.

Harpy: I outflanked it with the Tyrant and he came in on turn 3. I put it roughly 18 inches away from a squad of assault termies and proceded to pound on them every turn with stranglethorn and cluster spines. Minimal damage. He survived until the end of game.

Mawloc: I put him on top of the termies and scattered 8 inches away. Then the termies had their way with him. Because of course every Marine has grenades and Tyranids have 1 whole model with grenades.

Dave_Nz wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:@wisdomeyes1 - Not everybody falls cut and dry into one category or the other, but i can tell you certainly see my point. Gamers who lean more towards the 'sporty' side might happen to model for advantage and usually gamers who lean towards the fluff/game side (but they still want to win games, who doesn't?) tend not to model for advantage.

All things considered this thread is getting more than a little OT - Harpies are generally considered weak unit choices, and even making them smaller so as to hide them from LOS or give cover saves against enemy weaponry usually isn't enough to keep them alive long enough to damage the opponent anyhow. In fact the only time i've delivered killing long-range shots with them is VS a DE army, which promptly shot them down the very next turn (an ID from a hex-rifle if i remember correctly. epic play!).

Edit - One time a harpy got ID'ed by a deff-rolla equipped Battlewagon. I laughed as i pulled the model from the table because i could imagine the ork driver honking his horn, the splat noise, and then him going "what was dat guys?!"

@KingCracker

By the way, if it was cheating, im not sure if you have realized, GW would have produced an article on it stating that they must be "x height" what you have is purely just an opinion, and i feel sorry for you that you instantly jump to the conclusion that they have an obvious cheating mannor, you must be quite the impulsive character, and for that I feel sorry.

You never considered that some people dont have a tyrant, massive wings, a valkyre base, and other parts (from expensive models ) lieing around, and/or professional GS'ing capabilities.

Your assuming that GW keeps up on the problems they cause from rules writing and game design, you should probably shy away from doing that. GW is notorious for not giving a crap about things for the longest of times, like the deffrolla for example.

Also you can argue all you want and try to justify that building a MC from something so much smaller isnt cheating, thats fine if it helps YOU believe one isnt cheating in their games then thats on your group for not calling you out on it. But, argue all you want, its cheating. Its a Monstrous Creature. So what are the MC in your codex?
Hive tyrant
Swarmlord
Tervigon
Harpy (which in fluff IS compared to Trygon size)
Carnifex (and any variations of one)
Trygon(any variation of it)
Tyrannofex


This gives you an incredibly CLEAR idea of how big a MC is and should be. Now, making a MC out of a miniture thats around the size of a terminator comes from 1 of 2 things. Either A. your clearly modeling for advantage and therefore cheating. Or B. your ignorant to the fact (being a new player or similar is usually where this comes from) that you should not model for advantage and should also make a unit WYSIWYG, which this falls under IMO

I have changed my mind about the harpy. I am starting to like it. I have played it twice now to great effect.

2nd time: I was playing against orks. I hid the harpy behind the tyrant to give him cover. I flew her out and punched a looted wagon, killing it. Then I flew about 16-17 inches away from a large squad of ork boy and fired 2 pie plates at them a round. I killed 10 or so a round.

She is weak against small and medium arms fire, that is true. S 10 is fairly rare and she dies just as easily as a tyrant to missiles. 2+ to wound, 4 wounds.

I disagree on dying just as easy as a tyrant. In most cases you should take that upgrade that gives the tyrant a 2+ save. My wife learned that one after her fist game when she didnt take that upgrade and I KO'ed her Tyrant by turn 2 with rokkit fire.

That's arguing upgrades vs profile.

Armored shell is expensive. I usually dont take it. I take tyrant guard to give them cover save and if I have tervies, catalyst on them. It makes him pretty surviveable.

I will definitely try the harpy again in the near future. And report the findings back here.

Well it is nice to see someone saying positives on it. My wife has been pondering on the unit mainly because she thinks shes about to fall in love with flying nids, itd be nice to have something that can actually do more then what typical tourny players say,......and thats nothing but die

bucheonman wrote:That's arguing upgrades vs profile.

Armored shell is expensive. I usually dont take it. I take tyrant guard to give them cover save and if I have tervies, catalyst on them. It makes him pretty surviveable.

I will definitely try the harpy again in the near future. And report the findings back here.

True, iv personally never run armored shell and i haven't lost a game in a long time, run em thru cover, run em behind models, i personally like the flyrant, charge into combat anad get locked, finish them on their assualt phase, consolidate, repeat.