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I do like complaining sometimes. It makes me feel better. Especially on a topic like this where I feel justified.

As for playing older systems, how much fun is it playing by myself? Uhh...bout none. How bout that? I know exactly zero people who play 1st or 2nd edition rules. What's the comparison with electricity? The rules didn't get any BETTER. They got dumber. How is that good? How is that progress? They're assuming their customers are stupid so they made grenades a close-combat weapon. How does that make the game better? It doesn't.

"Well, we wanted everyone to be able to play the game, so that's why we went with d6's. Everyone's got a Yahtzee in the closet." - Rick Priestley, May, 1991

Guess what. It's now 2011 and just like 1991 anyone who plays the game buys the game in shops that sell d10's, d20's, d100's... (or online...). Just like in 1991 it's idiotic to think the game isn't accessible to people because they don't have access to DICE. (Sorry, Rick. I love ya buddy! I'm still a big fan!)

They should have made scalable versions of the rules. If Apoc is now the macro-end of the rules, why dumb-down the Core rules? Inqusitor was supposed to be micro-end of the rules, but due to bad support, too much detail and yet ANOTHER expensive miniature range which wasn't even the same scale, it failed. WH40k used to be a multi-squad-level game. Some of us miss that. Sorry if that offends you.

Making the rules "more accessible" to the "younger crowd" is insulting and degrading. GW is on top not because their rules set is awesome which it isn't. It's on top because of the bad-ass miniatures and people like the fluff which is diverse, enormous and downright cool (most of the time).

So when they put out crappy fluff, fans have a right to be a tad upset.

Asherian Command wrote:But I am Fluff guy, I love fluff, and if any fluff is horrible, I just ignore it. Like I am saying with the grey Knight codex. It doesn't exist. The fluff is not real.

Don't worry, none of it is "real" any way, you're safe.

Asherian Command wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:I wouldn't admit to pirating the codex if I were you.

Thats true. But considering I know a slew of people have done it. And plus if someone has bought it for me. And Are unable to send it to me, because of some shipping errors. (costs too much and they are too lazy to drop it off.) Then no its not a pirated codex. Plus I will never use it. Deleted it.
But I am Fluff guy, I love fluff, and if any fluff is horrible, I just ignore it. Like I am saying with the grey Knight codex. It doesn't exist. The fluff is not real.

I agree Ash, the thing im worried about, is if they let him near my Dark Angels fluff, I would actually leave the hobby if it is as bad as the GK fluff

Maxim C. Gatling wrote:I do like complaining sometimes. It makes me feel better. Especially on a topic like this where I feel justified.

As for playing older systems, how much fun is it playing by myself? Uhh...bout none. How bout that? I know exactly zero people who play 1st or 2nd edition rules. What's the comparison with electricity? The rules didn't get any BETTER. They got dumber. How is that good? How is that progress? They're assuming their customers are stupid so they made grenades a close-combat weapon. How does that make the game better? It doesn't.

"Well, we wanted everyone to be able to play the game, so that's why we went with d6's. Everyone's got a Yahtzee in the closet." - Rick Priestley, May, 1991

Guess what. It's now 2011 and just like 1991 anyone who plays the game buys the game in shops that sell d10's, d20's, d100's... (or online...). Just like in 1991 it's idiotic to think the game isn't accessible to people because they don't have access to DICE. (Sorry, Rick. I love ya buddy! I'm still a big fan!)

They should have made scalable versions of the rules. If Apoc is now the macro-end of the rules, why dumb-down the Core rules? Inqusitor was supposed to be micro-end of the rules, but due to bad support, too much detail and yet ANOTHER expensive miniature range which wasn't even the same scale, it failed. WH40k used to be a multi-squad-level game. Some of us miss that. Sorry if that offends you.

Making the rules "more accessible" to the "younger crowd" is insulting and degrading. GW is on top not because their rules set is awesome which it isn't. It's on top because of the bad-ass miniatures and people like the fluff which is diverse, enormous and downright cool (most of the time).

So when they put out crappy fluff, fans have a right to be a tad upset.

Sorry, but that's (partly) subjective too.

I started playing in 2e, and while I loved the game hugely, and miss certain elements (such as 3 types of grenade brought back for GKs to use) this is by far the least open to abuse rule-set GW have produced for 40k. You can say that people didn't play 'beardily' in the 'old days' but they could and they did sometimes. In addition, the definition of 'beardy' (cheesy wasn't seconded until the mid 90s to replace beardy) varied even more...sure, we didn't have the kneejerk internet reaction of

"OMG, New Codex is so powerful I auto lose with my 3 month older Codex! GW should be killed even though my Codex had the same thing said about it by others when it was released and I've now realised it's pretty balanced, only not against Codexes from older Editions which obviously suck in comparison as they were designed for a different purpose"

- but we still had

"You use Dark Reapers? man, that is soo beardy, they like, auto-kill my Marines."

and junk like that.

I find this ruleset the 'best' for clarity, simplicity, and indeed playability. If a game requires three rulebooks and a book for each army/faction as WELL, then it's Doing It Wrong. Also, do you REMEMBER the close combat rules? Only the winner made any attacks? How did anything ever die in CC? Plenty died to shooting afterall... (Stupid Dark Reapers on Overwatch...)

Formosa wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:I wouldn't admit to pirating the codex if I were you.

Thats true. But considering I know a slew of people have done it. And plus if someone has bought it for me. And Are unable to send it to me, because of some shipping errors. (costs too much and they are too lazy to drop it off.) Then no its not a pirated codex. Plus I will never use it. Deleted it.
But I am Fluff guy, I love fluff, and if any fluff is horrible, I just ignore it. Like I am saying with the grey Knight codex. It doesn't exist. The fluff is not real.

I agree Ash, the thing im worried about, is if they let him near my Dark Angels fluff, I would actually leave the hobby if it is as bad as the GK fluff

I really hope Jervis does it. Dark Angels are my baby. If any steps near them I usually glare at them O.O

Sent them a lengthy Email as well, awaiting a response.

IronfrontAlex wrote:Sent them a lengthy Email as well, awaiting a response.

Dear Loyal Customer

Thank you for showing interest in our latest release, Codex Grey Knights. A lot of effort was put into writing this lengthy tome, as a means of making up for the lost years when you had the older Codex Daemonhunters. We're sure you'll agree that it is a fantastic product! Not only does it have a full colour art section showing some fantastically painted silver Space Marines, but it has in depth background material written to fully flesh out the background of this secretive legion that we're sure you'll love.

Be sure to check out the new range of plastic models, including the Stormraven Shortbus and Dreadknight, which will suit any Grey Knights army.

Regards,

Games Workshop "Marketing"

-Loki- wrote:

IronfrontAlex wrote:Sent them a lengthy Email as well, awaiting a response.

Dear Loyal Customer

Thank you for showing interest in our latest release, Codex Grey Knights. A lot of effort was put into writing this lengthy tome, as a means of making up for the lost years when you had the older Codex Daemonhunters. We're sure you'll agree that it is a fantastic product! Not only does it have a full colour art section showing some fantastically painted silver Space Marines, but it has in depth background material written to fully flesh out the background of this secretive legion that we're sure you'll love.

Be sure to check out the new range of plastic models, including the Stormraven Shortbus and Dreadknight, which will suit any Grey Knights army.

Regards,

Games Workshop "Marketing"

At first I was like
Then I was like

unsurprisingly I believe they would send this. And this made me lol

While it remains quite popular to whine about Matt Ward's work, and I understand that many feel their particular army was done injustice, remember that he has done some exceptional work in the past, Namely his efforts of Fantasy 8th Edition, and the latest Space Marine Codex.

The point of any of that? It's fine to ask for a different writer, or even a different direction with fluff material, but asking for the termination of his employment is a bit uncalled for in my opinion.

Goddard wrote:While it remains quite popular to whine about Matt Ward's work, and I understand that many feel their particular army was done injustice, remember that he has done some exceptional work in the past, Namely his efforts of Fantasy 8th Edition, and the latest Space Marine Codex.

The point of any of that? It's fine to ask for a different writer, or even a different direction with fluff material, but asking for the termination of his employment is a bit uncalled for in my opinion.

I don't want him terminated. Hell No. I want the petition to say, Can Matt Ward REWRITE the lore and history. As it seems that the lore is kinda of bad, I can write better than that (Of course I have had practice, and lots of editors, and I have been doing it for 10 years >.>

Then you sir, are an acceptable person.

If i don't accept people for being stupid then I would be alone in high school.

Actually I downloaded mine... (one of my buds sent me the entire codex in PDF form and he originally bought it for me... He now regrets buying it after reading it....)

tramp! You steal a product then moan about it! Maybe you should of told customer services that huh? Its people like you that thinks its o.k for them to steal. You are a disgrace and i wont waste words on you again!

Well anyway guys I am on the side of the people who believe that theres nothing wrong in sending a well written logical letter full of specific examples which prove with facts not opinions whats wrong with the codex.

Like mentioned before the codex has been printed already and it most definately wont be taken back,however, if we voice our concerns they might take into consideration what we have to say for the next codex.

Im wondering what you guys think. Would it send a message if a LOT of people even those who dont want the book or play the army actually buy the codex and ALL return it within a couple of days?

That would probably send them a message....

Maxim C. Gatling wrote:snip

That's the thing about rose-tinted nostalgia; you tend to gloss over and ignore all the bad bits about a system in favour of extolling the 'good old days'. Sorry dude, but when you needed 3+ hrs, 3 seperate rulebooks, plus an endless amount of page-flicking and table-tracking to play a 1000pt game I * definitely* call today's system an improvement.

Making the rules simpler is not 'insulting and degrading'. At all. It's an attempt to broker the hobby to a much wider audience by breaking down the barrier to entry. This only, for some unfathomable reason, upsets the elitist crowd, as what they selfishly see as 'their hobby' becomes accessible to more and more people. It doesn't offend me that you prefer things the way they were, it's just achieving nothing coming onto a forum and complaining about it when you could just as easily get hold of the rules, recruit a few friends, and play RT/2nd Ed as if it was still the early 90s or whatever.

I don't mean to be rude, but complaining about how things were way better back in the day just makes you sound like a crotchety old man. It's not solving anything other than making you feel a little bit better for having had a moan on some forums. If you attend a FLGS, why not grab an online copy of the rulebook, and put forward the notion that this week you have a trip down memory lane and play some older editions. The worst they can say is no.

L. Wrex

I think we are missing a wonderful chance to take our Grey Knight armies and artfuly splatter blood on all the mini's, claiming it to be the blood of the Sisters and it should protect our minis.

I used this on a different thread, but it may well fit:

I emailed GW with concerns as a vetran wargamer. I kept it professional, non-offensive, rational and polite. I pressed my concerns over some of the inappropriate "fluff" and a small rant on the story itself. I also voiced my concern over general codex design and the length of time they take to produce them. Made points and counterpoints to my argument and tried to just lay out all my thoughts.

I got a responce just now, As read:
Hey there Alex,



Thanks for writing in to us to give us your feedback and express your concerns. I’ll be sure to pass on your comments further up the chain, but I’d really like to talk to you one on one to hear you out on some of the issues you’ve brought up. Could you give me a call at 1-800-394-4263, or provide me with a phone number and a good time to call you? I want to do this because an e-mail conversation can be drawn out and time consuming. I’d much rather be able to talk to you directly and answer any follow up questions that you may have.

Thanks, and hopefully I’ll speak to you soon!

Dave Swan

Customer Services Manager

IronfrontAlex wrote:

Hey there Alex, provide me with a phone number and a good time?

Dave Swan

Customer Services Manager

Eh, I got that same answer when I asked why they sent my order through USP instead of FedEx for the same cost, taking twice the time FedEx normally takes and since it's regular mail, getting stopped by the customs office here, making me to go to a neighbour city to pick my package instead of reciving it at my home.

ChrisCP wrote:

IronfrontAlex wrote:

Hey there Alex, provide me with a phone number and a good time?

Dave Swan

Customer Services Manager

out of context quote is out of context.

...So he didn't ask you for you phone number and a good time?

Lies!!!

IronfrontAlex wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:

IronfrontAlex wrote:

Hey there Alex, provide me with a phone number and a good time?

Dave Swan

Customer Services Manager

out of context quote is out of context.

It's still fun

IronfrontAlex wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:

IronfrontAlex wrote:

Hey there Alex, provide me with a phone number and a good time?

Dave Swan

Customer Services Manager

out of context quote is out of context.

Yeah but its still funny

Asherian Command wrote:

Formosa wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:I wouldn't admit to pirating the codex if I were you.

Thats true. But considering I know a slew of people have done it. And plus if someone has bought it for me. And Are unable to send it to me, because of some shipping errors. (costs too much and they are too lazy to drop it off.) Then no its not a pirated codex. Plus I will never use it. Deleted it.
But I am Fluff guy, I love fluff, and if any fluff is horrible, I just ignore it. Like I am saying with the grey Knight codex. It doesn't exist. The fluff is not real.

I agree Ash, the thing im worried about, is if they let him near my Dark Angels fluff, I would actually leave the hobby if it is as bad as the GK fluff

I really hope Jervis does it. Dark Angels are my baby. If any steps near them I usually glare at them O.O

So you can have a full decade as the worst Space Marines? Really?

Oh - and that comic strip was amazing.

Maxim C. Gatling wrote:How old is this guy? Is he a day over 30?

Irrelevant...Every person blessed enough to be PAID to write 40k fluff should be FORCED and REQUIRED to read the original WH40k:RogueTrader and the original Book of the Astronomicon from cover to frikkin cover.

I realize the game has grown and not everything fluff-wise can stay the same, but these people need to be grounded in the original vision and stay true to the 40k people used to envision back in 1990.

I've met a lot of GW employees who've never even SEEN an original 40k book, much less read one and have never heard of Rick Priestly! You'd think the design team would have at least.

Having just been lucky enough to get a Rogue Trader 40k rulebook i can see where the problems arise....but im sure Mat Ward has read them also.
1. Even though he is the Author his ideas were approved by a governing board of some kind....editors, designers and the like...Ward did not destroy the fluff all on his own.
2. The Astronomican and Rogue Trader books have some great fluff included but it is rather disjointed and does not cover much of what the game has become.
3. And from a fluff point of view.....Grey Knights are Human....therefore fallible in the world of 40k....even Horus snapped and switched sides and he was the Emperors chosen son. So GK going rogue and killing SOB or murdering millions fits right in the Grim Dark univers we all play in.