Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Well, I get one or two useful replies for every ten angry ones, so I deem the thread a success .

I don't know where anyone gets the idea that I was attempting to eliminate all spam lists. Those that actually read my posts got it right, I'd just like to force different lists from local players. I've never seen Nob bikers around here, for instance. I don't care if it's a great spam list, I'd like to actually see it rather than some varient of KFF Big Meks. I've also never seen razorback spam. Most of the local guys were part of the feedback process. The space wolf player that relies on long fangs thought it was a good idea to choose that unit. The imperial guard player that relies on vendettas thought it was a good idea to choose that unit, etc. The area that I had questions, hence, the reason for this thread, was what units to choose from the other army books.

There will be a tie-in with the hosting store so that each player, when signing up in advance, will get a hefty discount on a single boxed set to replace their 'crutch' for the event.

there are a lot of ways to shake up the game.

Your favored idea at the moment is to ban stuff.

There are a lot of other restrictions suggested.



I am just going to throw some really crazy ideas out there.

1) Change up the mission objectives:
Make it so that only troops that are not in vehicles can take objectives.
you get one point per turn you hold an objective
New rules for kill points, 3 for HQ, 2 For everything not a troop choice and transports, 1 for troops.

2) Change some rules in the BRB
Make a more dangerous Vehicle Damage Table.
Change Would allocation so it can be abused in multi-wound units.

3) change or ignore some rules from codexes
Remove the Phase out Rule for Necrons, and Change WWB to FNP.
Change the points costs for stuff you do not like. Long fangs are 18pts a model, Canifexes are 130pts base
Change some weapon stats, Venom cannons are R36" S7 AP4 A3, Heavy are R36" S9 AP3 A2, both have -1 on the damage table
Change the statlines for somethings, Make Mephiston S/T 5 and reduce his points a little

4) Have unit restrictions, but you can ignore them by paying a Tax.
You can take your long fangs, but you have to pay and extra 100 pts per squad or whatever.
First sterguard squad has no tax, second has a 20 pt tax, third has a 40 pt tax or something like that.


You can change whatever you want in order to try and make the game different. You will never be able to change enough stuff in order to make the game perfectly balanced.

Mission-based comp that punishes metalists is a much more creative solution.

If you want to piss on shooty armies make a night fight rules or make all weapons over str 5 have a misfire 'gets hot' rule.

Want to limit pillboxes? Limit distances vehicles can move.

People do this all the time in tourneys with custom missions.

The bans are dumb (No big mek?!) as are the restrictions. Just make it no two units the same. Banning long fangs is a complete insult to the idea of a fair tournament as well, 0-1 i can understand but banned, no... FAIL... Spam is what you want to cut out, after all a vendetta is just three lascannons and long fangs is just 5 rocket launchers, deal with it.

On second thought banning Special characters is fine (i would possibly make exception for FOC changing characters; Logan, Sathonyx etc..).

+ People have been picking holes in your idea loads, Nob bikers, 6 hydras, Razorspam, all kinds. Which you have been ignoring...

EDIT: Read the comments and Svendrex and Dasho annihilated your idea and created a great one from it's ugly mewling husk, take note.....

Weird. I actually really like the OPs idea and selections.

I can't help but note that there was no banned/limited list for witchhunters. Just goes to show....

It does strike me as unbalanced in that the same types of units are not banned from the various codices. Or worse yet that 2 of the same types were hit (ala the CSM daemon prince/oblit). If you are serious about forcing some changes in the armies at your local events may I suggest just talking to the players. If you can convince Bob the Blood Angel player that he might have more fun by not playing Mephistion and/or Dante then all is well and good. Otherwise all you are doing is making people feel frustrated/limited by some arbitrary choice. Why not encourage people to play unusual lists but using carrots like a special prize of some sort? Or maybe have a "tactics workshop" that focuses on some of the lesser used models/units.

Anyway just my 2 cents.

Deadshane1 wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:Dumb idea.

So, do you feel the OP is so off base that his idea requires a response of that kind-----or are you attempting to state you cannot think of any constructive way to improve/edit his idea of encouraging variety at his local scene?

Because, to be honest, just reading your post without context----it looks pretty inflammatory/rude.

Not being rude, its just a dumb idea, and its been stated why 1000 times in this forum.

Yes, you are being rude. Because you're insulting Oaka and his group, and you apparently didn't read the thread. He's talking about his group, collectively, agreeing to some restrictions which will shake up their lists for an event. He's not talking about trying to rebalance the game by making permanent changes. He's not talking about a single TO imposing restrictions on others. So a lot of your comments aren't even relevant.

Deadshane1 wrote:If that sounds rude, sorry, but whatever...grow a thicker skin.

How about I ask you to learn to read other people's posts and respond to the idea they're actually advocating, instead of skimming it and assuming they're talking about something else? How about you try not to be insulting when you disagree with someone? You agreed to follow the forum rules when you signed up. How about you follow rule #1, hmm?

Deadshane1 wrote:[When you impose restrictions like this, theres no reason other than "I hate facing off against 15 Missle Launcher Space Wolf armies". There's no reason other than that to do this, and you're not playing 40k anymore when you do. You're playing "So and so's idea of what 40k should be."

Oh yea, and since these restrictions are generally imposed by folks who cannot handle these common combo's, you know, folks that really just arent as skilled at 40k as other more regular tournament players who really know what they're doing....

The funniest part of your post, in terms of Composition restrictions in general, is this concept that only bad players could ever advocate or play under them.

Nevermind the ETC. Nevermind that Da Boyz, who run one of the few remaining GTs in the US with any Comp, are butt-stomping tournament players even in non-comped events. Jay W got 4th in the Adepticon Champs using Tyranids and has won multiple GTs. Shaun Kemp was won multiple GTs. Eric Hobic has won GTs and continues to do well at Adepticon and other big events, etc. Nope. Shane says these ideas only exist because players are bad, hate 40k, and can't compete.

Being condescending should also be against the forum rules...

It's a form of rudeness. As is failing to read someone's post and using it as a springboard for an only tangentially-related rant.

Mannahnin wrote:It's a form of rudeness. As is failing to read someone's post and using it as a springboard for an only tangentially-related rant.

I was referring to your post actually...



[/joke]

Hmmm... if I hadn't read from the beginning, I'd have no idea what this thread is about. Now it's just people insulting each other. Pretty sure we'll just be looking in the window soon enough as the mods gotta be locking the door.

CT GAMER wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:It's a form of rudeness. As is failing to read someone's post and using it as a springboard for an only tangentially-related rant.

I was referring to your post actually...



[/joke]

No worries. Shane knows I defend him too when people get him wrong. He has a tendency to get a little overexcited sometimes, but is essentially a good dude. The gods know I certainly should have sympathy for other people who are passionate about the hobby...

Mannahnin wrote:As is failing to read someone's post and using it as a springboard for an only tangentially-related rant.

How DARE you insist that people should READ posts and respond reasonably instead of just flying off the handle at the slightest provocation!

Well....

i can see the Dark Eldar Winning this Local Event...

Whats that Mr. Dark eldar Player?

you have HOW many Ravagers?
0???

Well...
i have 3 Land Raiders. Suck it B**ch

You're better off taking units people don't use and soliciting ways to improve them if you want a diverse local meta. The way you're doing it now will reduce the number of viable armies which is essentially the opposite of what you're going for.

Of course any post that isn't just some generic flavor of "Yeah dude! Right on! Do (whatever thing you just posted) and enjoy it, because we're all unique snowflakes!" is labelled as an "Angry post" which you just ignore. Did you really come here for actual feedback on your ideas?

What most of the 'angry replies' are showing is clear imbalances your proposed system creates.

If you don't see many razorback lists, this is an excellent system to encourage them (be careful what you wish for, as you remove a lot of the tools other armies possess that balance them).

Play a tournament with a throwback concept: no special characters allowed.

Or, as others have suggested, just mess with the missions. Make special characters worth 5 kill points in one game. Make vehicles start the game in reserve in another. Make objectives not allow deep strike, tank shock, or running near them.

Lots of ways to mess with popular builds, just try to mess with all the ones in your area to be fair.

Man, I think again that a lot of people are not getting he doesn't care about the impacts on the power curve, or the fact that some of the restrictions are going to force some of his players to field lists at an extreme handicap. In short, the suggested changes would create a game that isn't very fun to SOME of you, and far beyond any subtle imbalances present in the base form, but that's acknowledged/accepted/practically intended by the OP's idea. So, lay off him for what he already knows.

It's like someone asking you to suggest a black t-shirt to wear, and the response being "black is a stupid color." If your input is that black is a stupid color, your input is pointless, b/c the OP has already fixed that component of things as a requirement.

The one thing I'll ask - are you going to allow Proxies? Some of your changes will have dramatic impacts on what lists will look like; may be wise to allow any manner of proxying, so that people don't have to buy entirely new armies to participate.



Oh and for the sake of continuing to contribute:

Vulkan - That's fine, it makes sense as being the one you'd pick.

Long Fangs - Not fine, only in that I don't think you have a major impact on meta ... people can for the same points take 3 Vindicators, or they can just loganwing it up, which is far more annoying and boring ... just lots of dudes wandering about with missiles. I think you may want to consider banning something like Wolf Guard ... as critical as they are, make people have to think about Saga of Majesty and Ulrik, and finding ways around cheap GH+WG spam .... I get that you want to see "not long fangs," but they aren't what makes those lists tick, I don't think.

Ravagers - Like long fangs, I think you're spiting the entire army just to try and have variety. Accomplish variety instead by banning Raiders ... crazy, right? But now you're going to see lists that don't rely on the primary DE transport, forcing Venoms and Hellions and the like, *AND* you don't screw their ability to compete by removing their reliable anti-tank firebase ... again, similar to Fangs. You aren't going to see every unit change, so change up the way the army plays while leaving people with their basic list-competence building blocks ... does that make sense?

Mephiston - Yup. Though, GK kinda solve the need to ban him.

Monolith - You *DO* know Necrons, right? Terrible in combat even more than ever, desperate to rely on WBB while flailing at people with a few units that might actually be useful? Monoliths are there to help keep them out of combat and alive just a little longer ... don't remove this from them. Ban the C'Tan, if people are just being dumb and taking tri-lith + deceiver.

Eldrad - Yes. And remember to keep those dirty cheaters from trying to fortune before turbo boosting with double jetseer.

Big Mek - No. This makes almost any Ork army much more reliable, and doesn't fixate people on just one build. If you want to see variety, ban Lootas or Battlewagons. Neither are as required as a lot of sophomore Ork players tend to think or pontificate about on the current intarweb. Also, not having a Bwag to hide your Mek inside will help the impact the Mek has, without rendering Ork armies completely pants down to going 2nd. That is, by the way, one of the most important components of the Mek .... it's not that he gives a cover save all game, but that Ork players can't afford to deploy in reserve with their only long range weapons being Heavy, and their other weapons all being short ranged, and their primary strengths still being throwing kanz or boyz at things at the right time. With a KFF Mek they are ensured of being able to cross fingers and 4+ cover deploy regardless of how the board shafts (or doesn't shaft) them when going 2nd.

Crowe - Again, ban something that doesn't allow for more list variety. Purifier spam isn't all that great. That said, I can't really complain here ... but maybe ban DREADNAUGHTS. People are going to be ever more frequently spamming Psyfleman dreads to try and achieve long range fire support, and removing them will help your variety I guess ... though how do you have variety issues with the dex being brand new? Any of these changes are going to cede to popular lists being repeated, unless you change the banned units every week.

Vendetta - I suppose; ban Psyker Battle Squads or Manticores. Both are truly cheesy in that they violate game mechanics not well-balanced for violation (massive leadership manipulation, and the ability to routinely bang up or kill 3+ units from the shooting of just one unit).

Fateweaver - Good ole Kairos is far less dangerous than credited; try removing Crushers or Fiends (whichever your local group thinks is the gak).

Daemon Prince - I suppose this makes sense, though you could just ban the Mark of Slaanesh and the Mark of Nurgle. It's not like people use them outside of DP's anyway ... and who doesn't enjoy seeing a Tzeentch or Khorne DP runnin' about for a change?


And just so every codex has a unit on the list(I don't consider them auto-includes at all):

Farsight - Lolzy.
Tervigon - Nids really don't need to lose Tervigons. If you just want to be fair, ban Pyrovores. Do us all a favor ...

We all define "fun" differently. The OP wants to see the group they play with mix up their lists and do things differently. The choices made were based on perceptions of....whatever the OP perceived..and the result will be "different." Folks in the area will make an attempt to try to play it out..or won't.

I'll note, nowhere in the Original post is a query asking what everyone's opinion of the idea is. The only question stated was "think of things to ban from lists we haven't nailed already." That pretty much gives his mindset, and also what it is he's looking for. W40K is a game of luck + strategy + rock/paper/scissors/chewinggum/dynamite/bunny. OP will set up the tournament with people having to use different versions of their rocks/scissors..etc.

Some will have a mindset to show up because the "fun" is in the challenge. Others will show up with a cheezed out army that fits the ruleset just to prove a point. Others won't want to show up at all because there really isn't a lot of fun when you perceive that you don't have any chance of being victorious. In the end, it doesn't matter.. because for "Playing" to be fun, it really helps when you're playing with people that define "fun" the same way.

Good luck with the idea.

The Dark eldar banned list is kinda poorly thought out for this.

The only actual hvy support kit GW makes for the current DE line is the ravager. So you basically banned the entire DE heavy support line GW currently supports. LOL yeah I know there are still all metal talos but most DE players know its getting a model in june so are not going to buy one.


You might as well just ban all heavy support options from all codexes that have a current model for them.

How about a no spam tournament. You can't have more than one of any unit.

Of course, since the Black Templars only have 1 troop choice and must field 2, they're kind of boned....

Nah. I would pass I think.

The trouble is, with some weaker armies, where there may only be one build, the removal of one good unit may make it much more difficult for them to win, or even draw. One tau hammerhead for example would make thing very difficult for tau, same with the monolith for Necrons, they will just lose to phase out quite quickly without monoliths to act as buffers

Thanks, MVBrant, for clearing this up for me (and I guess, many others).

The OP is not wondering about balance, he is just posting what he wants to do with his local gaming group to shake up the variety. Why this is in tournament discussion is beyond me.

OP: My suggestiong is, don't bother with any of this, just tell everyone that they have to bring a different list and to ease off the spam if that's what's bothering you.

Fearspect wrote:Why this is in tournament discussion is beyond me.

Because...it's discussion of a tournament?

The Tau would do well in that tourney...You got rid of arguably the worst IC in the game!

Yeah, banning Farsight was plain ridiculous. No worries to the haters, I'm not going to organize this tournament as posted. I just got the Movie Marine rules and am going to do a Movie Marine 1500 point tournament instead. Once I come up with some neat scenarios and scoring I will post the information.

Am I allowed to scan two pages of a White Dwarf from 2005 and post a link on Dakka?

I am asking a question for my local gaming group dynamic here... I don't see Dark Angels here, did I miss something? Also as someone else said, no witchhunters either.

And if the Dark Angel ban is Belial, I think I may have to grievously wound you

Apparently you all are friends, Sounds like a challenging time for all.

I think that taking out monoliths will destroy Necrons.

Good Luck

I advise instead of banning certain units, make some 0-1

Not sure I'm understanding all the knee-jerk reactions to what a terrible idea this is. A lot of you are acting like it's the nova open or adepticon. It's a local tourney for fun.

And it's by agreement. Which means if you don't agree, it doesn't matter, because you're not playing in the tourney. And the people in town who don't agree ALSO don't have to play in the tourney.