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ShumaGorath wrote:What do you want me to to do suport my arguments other then using common rational logic? Puppet tricks?

I cited a source to support an argument. You attack the source without offering anything other than your opinion.

Puppet tricks would probably be an improvement.



Not this puppet though. He frightens me.


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ShumaGorath wrote:Logical theory? Though as we've previously covered (and the reason I quit the thread before (why do I keep coming back (BRACKETS!)))

Because you missed me.

It's okay. I'm pretty irresistible.

I cited a source to support an argument. You attack the source without offering anything other than your opinion.

Puppet tricks would probably be an improvement.

You cited a source that we were all aware of. It didn't support your argument as I don't believe the source of your assertion that the U.S. government views Hamas as a terrorist organization is in dispute. In fact I myself stated early in this thread that it was via early bush era politics. Hell, the election of Hamas is why bush dropped rhetoric about spreading democracy and freedom in the middle east. He suddenly didn't like democracy so much when he didn't like who was elected.

If no one is arguing your source material or claiming it is wrong then posting it doesn't support your point. It's incidental. Supporting your point would involve breaking it down and explaining the logic behind it in this instance since that is what is being called into question.

ShumaGorath wrote:You cited a source that we were all aware of.

If you're well aware that Hamas is internationally recognized as a terrorist organization and Israel isn't, why do you spend so much time typing the opposite?

Monster Rain wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:You cited a source that we were all aware of.

If you're well aware that Hamas is internationally recognized as a terrorist organization and Israel isn't, why do you spend so much time typing the opposite?

Because I think it's bs. I don't just accept what the state department says at face value because it's an organization composed primarily of people who are quite fallible. The same government that labeled them as a terrorist government is the one that attacked Sadaam for having WMDs and Al Queda ties. Both lies. It's quite clear just how political and ignorant the state department can be. How easily mislead.


But then you already knew the exact reason and you're just being an obtuse troll. I already told you I'm not gonna blame the victim and explode. You're just making yourself look bad.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:You cited a source that we were all aware of.

If you're well aware that Hamas is internationally recognized as a terrorist organization and Israel isn't, why do you spend so much time typing the opposite?

Because I think it's bs. I don't just accept what the state department says at face value because it's an organization composed primarily of people who are quite fallible. The same government that labeled them as a terrorist government is the one that attacked Sadaam for having WMDs and Al Queda ties. Both lies. It's quite clear just how political and ignorant the state department can be. How easily mislead.

Ah, more opinion based conspiracy theories. Alas, I'm out of tinfoil.

ShumaGorath wrote:But then you already knew the exact reason and you're just being an obtuse troll. I already told you I'm not gonna blame the victim and explode. You're just making yourself look bad.

Again with the name calling and insults.

Who are you really mad at, friend?

Ah, more opinion based conspiracy theories. Alas, I'm out of tinfoil.

It's clear you don't actually follow the news much. Here are the first two responses I found on google.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/27/politics/27diplo.html
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2010/06/cheney-mistake-for-bush-admin-to-push-for-2006-palestinian-elections.html

Again with the name calling and insults.

Who are you really mad at, friend?

You. Anyway, the circle of trolling is coming back around on itself. You're not going to self destruct because you know how to troll via argumentative fallacies, shifting sands, and equivocation. I'm not going to catch you in anything because you aren't saying anything concrete or meaningful, so I'm just gonna bow out before I end up getting banned for accidentally saying something mean in the thread where a mod has said it's excellent that someone was hung for being a charity worker.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Ah, more opinion based conspiracy theories. Alas, I'm out of tinfoil.

It's clear you don't actually follow the news much. Here are the first two responses I found on google.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/27/politics/27diplo.html
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2010/06/cheney-mistake-for-bush-admin-to-push-for-2006-palestinian-elections.html

I'm not sure what point it is you're supporting here.

I'm aware of those stories. I don't see how they impugn the State Department's identification of terrorist organizations. I'm sure that with your Google skills you could find someone other than them listing Hamas as a terrorist organization, though. Ah yes, I seem to recall having mentioned a few places earlier in the thread now that I mention it.


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ShumaGorath wrote:You. Anyway, the circle of trolling is coming back around on itself. You're not going to self destruct because you know how to troll via argumentative fallacies, shifting sands, and equivocation.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then.

Have a pleasant evening.

ShumaGorath wrote:

If this man was such an ardent supporter of them, then why should I be concerned he got rubbed out?

Theoretically because you're a human being and not some sort of bloodthirsty anti Arab English imperialist who loves his country and hates reading THE ACTUAL ARTICLE ITSELF. When you say gak like that it reminds me why I don't actually like talking to ex military people. It robs them of their ability to think with compassion when its something they were trained to think wasn't human.

Yeah Shuma, the issue I have mate is that while I accept that the Isreali, Palestine comflict is incredibly complicated, I don't really see how someone as vocally and obviously Pro Palestine as you (look how pissed off you have been all thread) cannot see that your essentially saying the exact same things as someone who is incredibly Pro Isreal!

I mean, seriously, there are people all over the world who love the Isrealis, Im not one of them, I just like them more than the Palestinians.

I quite clearly said Im not ok with torture either, I hate it when chickenhawks on US TV/Radio talk about it, because they have no idea what they are talking about, Ive had a passive Iraqi prisoner sat right in front of me, looking at me with fear in his eyes, and I think that even if I had to, putting a round in his face while he sits and looks right at me, that would be hard to do, let alone tying the bloke up and pulling his teeth with a pair of pliers. (shooting people during a firefight is pretty easy though!). I really dont think torture is acceptable, and I find it abhorent when people do it, I dont even think waterboarding is acceptable, thats my stance on the issue and it always will be, however Im not really bothered when a massively pro Hamas fella gets wasted.

Seriously, whats so fethed up about that!? Judging by your zeal for the last three pages, doesnt that mean that you would pretty much feel the exact same way?! Sure you would.. look lets do a roleplay, ill be you for a bit.

A dedicated member of the Zionist movement, who travels extensively promoting the Isreali occupation and its aggressive military actions is tortured and killed. Whats your reaction Shuma?

Shuma Gorath "Gee whiz dudes, Torture is like, totally despicable man, but im not that bothered to be honest, gosh darn those cotton picking Israelis"

See! Were the same me and you bro!

Yeah Shuma, the issue I have mate is that while I accept that the Isreali, Palestine comflict is incredibly complicated, I don't really see how someone as vocally and obviously Pro Palestine as you (look how pissed off you have been all thread) cannot see that your essentially saying the exact same things as someone who is incredibly Pro Isreal!

Oddly enough I dislike Palestine and would prefer it not exist. It's a lose coalition of tribes that have caused issues for a thousand years. I don't like the old world or the old ways.

What I get mad about is monster rains trolling (honestly, i've been angry at the forum for its double standard on trolling for a week) and the ease with which people on this forum dismiss deaths when they are in that region as granted.

I mean, seriously, there are people all over the world who love the Isrealis, Im not one of them, I just like them more than the Palestinians.

Both groups have proven they don't deserve to have a country.

I quite clearly said Im not ok with torture either, I hate it when chickenhawks on US TV/Radio talk about it, because they have no idea what they are talking about, Ive had a passive Iraqi prisoner sat right in front of me, looking at me with fear in his eyes, and I think that even if I had to, putting a round in his face while he sits and looks right at me, that would be hard to do, let alone tying the bloke up and pulling his teeth with a pair of pliers. (shooting people during a firefight is pretty easy though!). I really dont think torture is acceptable, and I find it abhorent when people do it, I dont even think waterboarding is acceptable, thats my stance on the issue and it always will be, however Im not really bothered when a massively pro Hamas fella gets wasted.

You probably should be for the reasons I outlined before monster rain proved he's not here to discuss anything. He supported palestinians. Hamas was the authority he went through because he had too. It was their government. He wasn't a terrorist or terrorist supporter. So you should probably care.

Seriously, whats so fethed up about that!? Judging by your zeal for the last three pages, doesnt that mean that you would pretty much feel the exact same way?! Sure you would.. look lets do a roleplay, ill be you for a bit.

A dedicated member of the Zionist movement, who travels extensively promoting the Isreali occupation and its aggressive military actions is tortured and killed. Whats your reaction Shuma?

Shuma Gorath "Gee whiz dudes, Torture is like, totally despicable man, but im not that bothered to be honest, gosh darn those cotton picking Israelis"

I think you've misinterpreted my anger. I dislike both of those fethed up hellholes. I just dislike Rains cognitive dissonance and your random and contradictory hate as well.

Its not really hate though is it? Its er... nonchalant ambivalence!

Saying "I dont really care" isnt hate surely? I dont "hate" Palestinians, they get raised by their parents with hatred, they watch Mickey "hate" Mouse and they drink hate milk, thats what motivates a man to wire himself up, fill his pockets with rat poison and blow himself up on a bus.

I just dont really care very much when they get wasted. Hardly hate is it?! I dont hate AQ either, its not their fault they are on the other team, its more due to luck and location of birth and what your parents thought as to wether or not you end up on Osamas team.

But I mean, I dont really care if a random bloke down the street I dont know pops his clogs, so why should I care what both sides in this conflict or their supporters get up to?

Matty, we've established in a thread about a celebrity's death that you express your opinion about the deaths of strangers a bit differently than most of us do. It would help if you accounted for that and remembered that thread, and how you came off like a callous jerk, even though you didn't mean to, because of your careless phrasing.

Bear in mind, as well, that no one in this thread has even asked you to feel sympathy for a Palestinian dying. We're talking about an Italian dude who felt strongly enough about helping poor, needy, f'd over people that he went to Palestine to try to help. And he was murdered, brutally. That's a tragedy. And being publicly callous about it is kind of offensive, honestly.

I'm not as hot and bothered as Shuma, but I agree with most of what he's written in here.

I'm no fan of Hamas. I occasionally find myself in the position of almost-sort-of defending them just because the dialogue in this country seems overwhelmingly slanted in favor of Israel's side, which seems highly unjust when both sides have been terrible, and Israel happens to have a lot more Palestinian blood on its hands than vice-versa. It's kind of understandable, though, given our country's political support of and close alliance with Israel. We never like facing it or owning up to our own complicity when the people we're supporting aren't actually very nice. Whether it's Israel, the Saudis, Mubarek, Saddam Hussein, Manual Noriega, The Shah of Iran, etc. etc.

Hamas is designated as a "terrorist organization" mostly for political reasons, and because they're connected to terrorists. Some guilt by association.

Desperate people resort to terrorism, and it's considered progress when they/their organizations reduce (and hopefully eventually eliminate) their terrorist activity and participate in peaceful governmental activities. We need to encourage that. If Britain had refused to talk to Sinn Fein or work with them, the peace process in Ireland would have permanently stalled.

Monster Rain, if a charity worker were volunteering in Ireland and happened to be operating in cooperation with Sinn Fein for some reason, then was murdered by Protestant terrorists from Northern Ireland, would you consider it the aid worker's fault for having worked with the political wing of the IRA?

One of the other clear misunderstandings people have demonstrated in this thread is that thinking Hamas, or anyone allied with or friendly to Hamas, were the ones who killed this poor guy. They weren't. It was a group of terrorists supportive of and financed by the Saudis. Who are our allies.

Well thats a good point Manna, we know how many plaggy paddys with an extremely poor and generally idiotic understanding of history of the troubles in the USA feel about the IRA.

Ted "send them all back to England" Kennedy for one!

Anyway, as I said, I think you guys have me all wrong.. I dont really like Isreal (Albatross has lectured me about the King David Hotel bombing for one!) and I dont really hate Palestine. I just dont really find death and war heart wrenching if it doesnt involve people I actually know, and I dont care what either side does as long as they dont import it to Yorkshire.

I merely have the somewhat simplistic idea that the more extremist Muslims the Isrealis frag, the less there will be running around to blow up my British and American friends.

I understand that, Matty. But it still comes off as callous whenever people are talking about a death, and you waltz in casually and say "don't bother me none." It comes off like you trying to be inhumane and demean the memory of the dead.

And anyway, who says this Italian dude was an extremist Muslim?

ShumaGorath wrote:What I get mad about is monster rains trolling (honestly, i've been angry at the forum for its double standard on trolling for a week) and the ease with which people on this forum dismiss deaths when they are in that region as granted.

No, you're mad at Frazzled and since you can't flame him you're taking it out on me. Also, if anyone here is on the receiving end of lax forum rule enforcement right now it's me. The difference is I'm not really all that bothered by it.

Mannahnin wrote:Monster Rain, if a charity worker were volunteering in Ireland and happened to be operating in cooperation with Sinn Fein for some reason, then was murdered by Protestant terrorists from Northern Ireland, would you consider it the aid worker's fault for having worked with the political wing of the IRA?

I don't consider it to be anyone's fault that they got killed. I'm saying that working in conjunction with Terrorist Organizations is inherently dangerous.

Mannahnin wrote:One of the other clear misunderstanding, s people have demonstrated in this thread is that thinking Hamas, or anyone allied with or friendly to Hamas, were the ones who killed this poor guy. They weren't. It was a group of terrorists supportive of and financed by the Saudis. Who are our allies.

Yes, and I'm not crazy about Saudi Arabia either.



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Mannahnin wrote:Bear in mind, as well, that no one in this thread has even asked you to feel sympathy for a Palestinian dying. We're talking about an Italian dude who felt strongly enough about helping poor, needy, f'd over people that he went to Palestine to try to help. And he was murdered, brutally. That's a tragedy. And being publicly callous about it is kind of offensive, honestly.

If I may wax philosophical here for a moment:

Is it really callous? The amount of people that die on this planet every day is pretty staggering. It's impossible for me to feel personally affected by every single one of them, regardless of the manner in which they passed. I think that saying something doesn't bother you doesn't necessarily mean that you're an unfeeling monster; I think you can acknowledge something as being negative without being emotionally affected by it.

That was how I interpreted mattyrm's original statement, anyway. That's why I agreed with him. I just used shorthand.

mattyrm wrote:Im not really seeing how Frazzled comment was in "extremely" poor taste? I mean, yeah, torturing people like that is horrific, Im always concerned about needless torture, but a bit of death doesnt really bother me, how innocent was he if he was an activitst for Hamas? An internationally recognised terrorist orginisation?

The Norwegians, Russians, Chinese, Swiss, Turks, and Swedes don't recognize them as a terrorist group, and Australia only recognizes the military arm as such Additionally, France and Germany have long debated whether or not to include the political wing as part of the terrorist organization, with multiple court rulings running up to the blanket declaration made by the EU; so their position is somewhat unclear once you delve beneath the legal code.


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Monster Rain wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:I do despair of the whole 'Israel vs. Palestine' debate.

I think most people do.

The problem is that some people hear "Hamas is a Terrorist Organization" as "Israel has carte blanche to do whatever they want, in my opinion."

I think the debate is hilarious. I remember going to a Council panel discussion on Israel and Palestine, and when it came around to question time the degree of enmity people felt towards each other was palpable.

In particular I remember talking to a guy during the post-conference cocktail hour and we got onto the subject of why we don't see more stories from the Palestinian perspective. Thinking this was a reasonable person, I suggested that it was because there is no, widely-read, Palestinian news source, and there is minimal broadband access in the OT (meaning that amateur journalism is difficult to really get off the ground). His only response was "Well, that's not Israel's fault. You have no right to blame Israel for the condition of the Palestinian people!"

The degree of willful distortion that goes on when discussing this topic is absolutely spectacular.


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Mannahnin wrote:
One of the other clear misunderstandings people have demonstrated in this thread is that thinking Hamas, or anyone allied with or friendly to Hamas, were the ones who killed this poor guy. They weren't. It was a group of terrorists supportive of and financed by the Saudis. Who are our allies.

Well, they were financed by Saudis, but not the Saudis. What people often forget is that Saudi Arabia is basically a feudal kingdom, and we're effectively aligned with the king and his close allies. The rest of the people that are party to the wealth of the Saud family basically do whatever they want (its how the Sauds maintain power).

dogma wrote:I think the debate is hilarious. I remember going to a Council panel discussion on Israel and Palestine, and when it came around to question time the degree of enmity people felt towards each other was palpable.

In particular I remember talking to a guy during the post-conference cocktail hour and we got onto the subject of why we don't see more stories from the Palestinian perspective. Thinking this was a reasonable person, I suggested that it was because there is no, widely-read, Palestinian news source, and there is minimal broadband access in the OT (meaning that amateur journalism is difficult to really get off the ground). His only response was "Well, that's not Israel's fault. You have no right to blame Israel for the condition of the Palestinian people!"

The degree of willful distortion that goes on when discussing this topic is absolutely spectacular.

That's really funny.

There's no room for nuanced opinions, that's for sure.

We're at war, people. Pick a side.

No, you're mad at Frazzled and since you can't flame him you're taking it out on me. Also, if anyone here is on the receiving end of lax forum rule enforcement right now it's me. The difference is I'm not really all that bothered by it.

You posted intentionally circular equivocations for two pages straight without ever answering any of my questions or giving me a straight answer in any way at all. You've admitted to doing the same to Galbraithe in PMs with me. You troll people like that. It's your thing. Its how you justify the things that you say without having to explain yourself, and we both know you do it consciously. The thing is, what you do is very visible, so don't try and put on an innocent face now that other people are awake.

ShumaGorath wrote:

No, you're mad at Frazzled and since you can't flame him you're taking it out on me. Also, if anyone here is on the receiving end of lax forum rule enforcement right now it's me. The difference is I'm not really all that bothered by it.

You posted intentionally circular equivocations for two pages straight without ever answering any of my questions or giving me a straight answer in any way at all.

I answered your questions. You just didn't like the answers I gave.

ShumaGorath wrote:You've admitted to doing the same to Galbraithe in PMs with me.

All I did in PMs was link you to the thread when you asked what "Blame the Victim" was all about.

You said I trolled him in that thread, I explained that there was a lot of history leading up to that thread. Also, I think you might note that I wasn't the only person that had problems with that kid.

Transcript of the PM conversation with Shuma. Note that I didn't post off topic in the thread that he asked for it, but took it to PM.

Monster Rain wrote:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/319627.page

Enjoy.

ShumaGorath wrote:You trolled that guy a little hard.

Monster Rain wrote:If you went back through G-Baby's posting history with... well... everyone you'd see why people were a bit short-tempered with him.

Yeah, I admit I was short-tempered with a known fool. I'm not terribly ashamed of that.

ShumaGorath wrote:You troll people like that. It's your thing. Its how you justify the things that you say without having to explain yourself, and we both know you do it consciously.

I'm not sure what you mean. I have explained myself... oh...in the same post that you just quoted. Look a bit further down.

I answered your questions. You just didn't like the answers I gave.

Because you answered them with questions, (illogical) appeals to authority, or simply gave me a totally unrelated answer. So you're right. I didn't like your responses.

You said I trolled him in that thread, I explained that there was a lot of history leading up to that thread. Also, I think you might note that I wasn't the only person that had problems with that kid.

When I said you were trolling him kinda hard you said that others had been worse, thats pretty tacit admittance. Within that thread you had other non victim blaming posters noting that you should lay off as well. That said, everyone had a problem with him, I was just noting a pattern of behavior.

ShumaGorath wrote:

I answered your questions. You just didn't like the answers I gave.

Because you answered them with questions, (illogical) appeals to authority, or simply gave me a totally unrelated answer. So you're right. I didn't like your responses.

I don't care if you like them. If you don't like talking to me, feel free not to.

ShumaGorath wrote:When I said you were trolling him kinda hard you said that others had been worse, thats pretty tacit admittance. Within that thread you had other non victim blaming posters noting that you should lay off as well.

You've only seeing what you want to see in that thread.

Also, there were people who were worse to him than I was. Now who's equivocating?

I stand by my opinion that you're really mad at something else but are lashing out at me because I'm a target of convenience. Nothing you say will change my mind.

I don't care if you like them. If you don't like talking to me, feel free not to.

I wish I had that kind of personality :( .

You've only seeing what you want to see in that thread.

Also, there were people who were worse to him than I was. Now who's equivocating?

You're either confused or didn't use equivocating right. I was just positing that your method of posting/trolling has previous precedence and that you tacitly admitted to it on one instance with me.

The only people that have accused me of this are you and that other guy.

I'd think hard about that.

Well, you know. Me, CheeseElemental, Rubiksnoob, and delvhar by reading the last 3 pages of that thread. Then again you look like a saint next to Gally regardless. I'm not attempting to argue that he wasn't a nutty timebomb.




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I stand by my opinion that you're really mad at something else but are lashing out at me because I'm a target of convenience. Nothing you say will change my mind.

Your mind is impossible to change because your opinions are illogical. You get shouted at by people a lot because you say incredibly offensive and ignorant things in incredibly cavalier and certain ways and never, never, never actually engage in a factual or intellectual manner with other people on this forum.

And we've come full circle once again. It's like I'm a damn prophet.

ShumaGorath wrote:[Well, you know. Me, CheeseElemental, Rubiksnoob, and delvhar by reading the last 3 pages of that thread. Then again you look like a saint next to Gally regardless. I'm not attempting to argue that he wasn't a nutty timebomb.

Again, you're not quite sure what you're talking about and appealing to... well... one of those guys isn't exactly a paragon of reason and class.

I stand by my opinion that you're really mad at something else but are lashing out at me because I'm a target of convenience. Nothing you say will change my mind.

Your mind is impossible to change because your opinions are illogical. You get shouted at by people a lot because you say incredibly offensive and ignorant things in incredibly cavalier and certain ways and never, never, never actually engage in a factual or intellectual manner with other people on this forum.

And we've come full circle once again. It's like I'm a damn prophet.

If you're wrong, why would we come to a different answer than when I told you that you're wrong in the first place?

Also, you were equivocating with the word "trolling" but then you knew that. I didn't admit to anything "tacitly" I said I was short-tempered with him. Verbatim. Ah hell. Shuma got me arguing semantics again. We're done with that.

Again, you're not quite sure what you're talking about.

It's kinda hard to interperet:

Your logic here is deeply flawed.

Anyone who responds to a troll that violently is just being an idiot. Put him on ignore, and you don't have to deal with his bs. Anyone else who has that problem should do the same. I had a problem with a user here claiming to be a Christian being an immoral fethwit, so I put him on ignore and everything's cool.

Problem solved. Don't go comparing this to Nazi Germany.

In any way other then that they believe you were trolling him and that he hugely overreacted.

If you're wrong, why would we come to a different answer than when I told you that you're wrong in the first place?

Anyway, I'm unsubscribing from this pointlessness.

Also, you were equivocating with the word "trolling" but then you knew that.

Mannahnin wrote:Matty, we've established in a thread about a celebrity's death that you express your opinion about the deaths of strangers a bit differently than most of us do. It would help if you accounted for that and remembered that thread, and how you came off like a callous jerk, even though you didn't mean to, because of your careless phrasing.

Bear in mind, as well, that no one in this thread has even asked you to feel sympathy for a Palestinian dying. We're talking about an Italian dude who felt strongly enough about helping poor, needy, f'd over people that he went to Palestine to try to help. And he was murdered, brutally. That's a tragedy. And being publicly callous about it is kind of offensive, honestly.

I'm not as hot and bothered as Shuma, but I agree with most of what he's written in here.

I'm no fan of Hamas. I occasionally find myself in the position of almost-sort-of defending them just because the dialogue in this country seems overwhelmingly slanted in favor of Israel's side, which seems highly unjust when both sides have been terrible, and Israel happens to have a lot more Palestinian blood on its hands than vice-versa. It's kind of understandable, though, given our country's political support of and close alliance with Israel. We never like facing it or owning up to our own complicity when the people we're supporting aren't actually very nice. Whether it's Israel, the Saudis, Mubarek, Saddam Hussein, Manual Noriega, The Shah of Iran, etc. etc.

Hamas is designated as a "terrorist organization" mostly for political reasons, and because they're connected to terrorists. Some guilt by association.

Desperate people resort to terrorism, and it's considered progress when they/their organizations reduce (and hopefully eventually eliminate) their terrorist activity and participate in peaceful governmental activities. We need to encourage that. If Britain had refused to talk to Sinn Fein or work with them, the peace process in Ireland would have permanently stalled.

Monster Rain, if a charity worker were volunteering in Ireland and happened to be operating in cooperation with Sinn Fein for some reason, then was murdered by Protestant terrorists from Northern Ireland, would you consider it the aid worker's fault for having worked with the political wing of the IRA?

One of the other clear misunderstandings people have demonstrated in this thread is that thinking Hamas, or anyone allied with or friendly to Hamas, were the ones who killed this poor guy. They weren't. It was a group of terrorists supportive of and financed by the Saudis. Who are our allies.

Nice post.

And dogma already raised the point that it's technically not the actual Saudi Government that's funding these guys, but powerful members of it.


@Monster: Honestly, it doesn't make sense to label an entire government a terrorist organization. I'd understand the Military Wing (which Australia holds to be a terrorist organizaion), but this Italian guy wasn't working in conjunction with the military, he was in contact with a legitimately elected government (so far as I can tell).

And going by your definition of terrorism (wilfully attacking civilian targets) that would make the state of Israel (or at least the military arm) a terrorist organization as well.

But this thread isn't really about Pro-Isreal or Pro-Palestine, it's about an aid worker who was brutally killed by a terrorist organization while trying to help people. Hamas responded legitimately to this deplorable act.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
And dogma already raised the point that it's technically not the actual Saudi Government that's funding these guys, but powerful members of it.

Its a bit more complicated than that, but yeah.

To elaborate, not all members of the Saud family are involved in government; much to the chagrin of those who are not. However, all members of the Saud family have access to at least some part of the Saud family's wealth. So you get a situation where politically connected, though not necessarily politically relevant, people are able to draw from "state" coffers in order to fund groups that the state might not have a direct interest in being connected to. All of this, of course, is further exacerbated by the internecine struggles between the various Sauds vying for power within the familial hierarchy. Oh, and you also can't forget the wealthy retainers of the Saud family that aren't actually considered "royalty", but still have access to a great deal of wealth.

Really its just one big fascinating mess.