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doubled wrote:You cannot use extra dice against a wave serpent but i think because turbo pen rounds get a base ap of 4d6 it can shred the serpents.

This is incorrect. 'Extra' dice are not taken into consideration - against Wave Serpents you may not roll more than 1D6 for armour penetration. If the rule mentioned 'extra dice' then you might have an argument... it doesn't.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:

doubled wrote:You cannot use extra dice against a wave serpent but i think because turbo pen rounds get a base ap of 4d6 it can shred the serpents.

This is incorrect. 'Extra' dice are not taken into consideration - against Wave Serpents you may not roll more than 1D6 for armour penetration. If the rule mentioned 'extra dice' then you might have an argument... it doesn't.

I don't have an Eldar codex with me. Can someone please put up the exact wording of the wave serpent rule?

wuestenfux wrote:Competitive? Not really.
This is my impression from having a first look into the codex.
Grey Knights die from shooting like normal Marines.
Their rending shooting weapons are nice but rending got nerfed.

Agreed normal marines struggle with heavy casualties but say one defiler takes a sqaud your GK suffer massively and rending is nerfed qouted for truth

omerakk wrote:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:

doubled wrote:You cannot use extra dice against a wave serpent but i think because turbo pen rounds get a base ap of 4d6 it can shred the serpents.

This is incorrect. 'Extra' dice are not taken into consideration - against Wave Serpents you may not roll more than 1D6 for armour penetration. If the rule mentioned 'extra dice' then you might have an argument... it doesn't.

I don't have an Eldar codex with me. Can someone please put up the exact wording of the wave serpent rule?

Uh... I basically just did.

"All ranged attacks never roll more than +1d6 for their armour penetration"

The turbo rounds might actually work then.

That rule is almost worded the exact same as the monolith living metal rule; which even goes one step further and adds in for close combat attacks; but for some reason, the turbo rounds still get to use 4d6 penetration on them.

I'd like to think they can't do the same to wave serpents, but it doesn't seem likely to allow them to ignore one vehicle's special rule and not the other as well

omerakk wrote:The turbo rounds might actually work then.

That rule is almost worded the exact same as the monolith living metal rule; which even goes one step further and adds in for close combat attacks; but for some reason, the turbo rounds still get to use 4d6 penetration on them.

I'd like to think they can't do the same to wave serpents, but it doesn't seem likely to allow them to ignore one vehicle's special rule and not the other as well

As it stands, the Exitus Rifle is Strength X and the Turbo-Penetrator normally rolls 4d6 for armour penetration.

It's a ranged attack, so if you roll more than a single die against the WS then you're choosing to ignore a pretty clear rule.

Monoliths do not allow 'additional' penetration dice - this does not restrict the Turbo-Penetrator from working. It is worded completely differently.

S7 rending does the same damage as S7 non rending against AV12 or less. The rending on S7 only has an effect on AV13 or higher. Psycannons are just autocannons against eldar vehicles.

GK says base damage is 4D6 on a turbo penetrator. Eldar says never roll more than 1D6 for penetration against a wave serpent. It's a clear case of a restrictive rule contradicting a permissive rule, in such a case the restrictive rule trumps the permissive rule. Debate is over.

Celexus assassin gains no real bonus against eldar besides an extra assault 1 per psyker within 12". Against units of psykers I think it's going to be FAQ'd that it's an extra 1 assault per unit psyker or unit of psykers, not per member of the unit. If the assassin gets to count each individual warlock in a seer council the assassin gets to count each individual psyker in a henchman squad because the ability is for each psyker friend or foe. That loophole would lead to packing 3 transports full of 8 psykers each and the gun would then because S5 AP1 Assault 26 fired at a BS of 8.

As far as runes of warding goes GK are going to have a really hard time killing a Falcon with a holo field moving flat out with the farseer inside. Psycannons and Psyfleman dreads will have a hell of a hard time dealing with a holofield falcon with a 4+ cover save. Best case scenario would be to use a vindicator, but at T4 and 3+ cover save they are easy pickings for an eldar army.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:Competitive? I don't know, but I'd think... YES! Some may even say overpowered, but I'll wait until I face them to decide for myself.

I don't think they're overpowered. They're certainly a very strong codex that can build at least 2-3 different competitive armies. I'd say they're right up in line with SW/BA/IG. I don't think that they break the game by any stretch. Many armies will need to be tweaked/changed a bit to cope with them, but then when hasn't the meta changed in the wake of a new 5th edition codex? This is a natural evolution of any game system that adopts new pieces/rules/etc, and is absolutely NOT a bad thing.

Hulksmash wrote:Point limit was 2,000. The level I think all 5th edition codexes are balanced for. The list looked like this:

2xInquisitors w/TA, Psycannon, Servo Skull
2xSingle Paladin w/Hammer
10 Purifiers w/4 Pyscannons, 6 Halberds, Rhino
5 Warrior Accolytes w/Rhino
2x10 Strike Squads w/Hammer, 2 Psycannon, PsyAmmo, Rhino
10 Strike Squad w/2 Psycannon, PsyAmmo, Rhino
7 Interceptors w/PsyAmmo, Hammer
Dread w/Dual AC's, PsyAmmo
Dread w/Assault Cannon, PsyAmmo, Auto-Cannon

It's got a lot of tweaking still to come but it was my starting point. The warriors were basically a tax so I could combat squad the Purifiers. Worked out pretty well.

Can you give us a run down (generally) of the lists you played, or even better a short bat rep? I'm not saying that army is bad but I can't imagine it tabling IG. I'd be curious to see the cirucumstances that lead to the results.

imho i do think that the turbo penetrator should get to use the 4d6 for armor pen because i think that its the strength of the weapon ( if you get what i mean )

Alright, well, it seems like it's vague enough that both sides have an argument. Someone needs to start a new thread to discuss that further; we have hijacked this one enough.

On topic, as of now, I think they have all of the tools to be competitive, but they are a difficult army to play properly, so you won't see the massive amount of rookie players showing up and placing well in tournaments like we have with other armies.

I would say give it at least 3 months and an faq to really see what gks are capable of

indeed i agree with ^ i belive that some people will create the " leafblower" equevalent to the GK and people will start to realive whats good in a build and what should not be taken ........ were all looking at you bjorn <.<

I think GK will soon rise to the highest levels simply by the fact that they totally dominate MEQ armies due to halberds.

They have better shooting than marine squads, better ability to kill armored opponents and for a base squad with only 2 psycannons + hammer they're 20 pts more. For less than the cost of a power fist you get ALL power weapons, stormbolters and psychic powers. Its huge codex creep. Before saying theyre "expensive" you need to calculate the entire unit cost. For example, on paper purifiers are 8 pts more than a tactical squad but once you calculate full squad cost (IE free vet sarg and 20 pt discount on a hammer) the real result is 3.5 pts more

GKs who lose in CC to other marines (units not the army in general) got massively outplayed because they should win almost all of the time in cc

Kirasu wrote:I think GK will soon rise to the highest levels simply by the fact that they totally dominate MEQ armies due to halberds.

They have better shooting than marine squads, better ability to kill armored opponents and for a base squad with only 2 psycannons + hammer they're 20 pts more. For less than the cost of a power fist you get ALL power weapons, stormbolters and psychic powers. Its huge codex creep. Before saying theyre "expensive" you need to calculate the entire unit cost. For example, on paper purifiers are 8 pts more than a tactical squad but once you calculate full squad cost (IE free vet sarg and 20 pt discount on a hammer) the real result is 3.5 pts more

GKs who lose in CC to other marines (units not the army in general) got massively outplayed because they should win almost all of the time in cc

News flash: tactical marines suck. Every marine codex that has come out since C:SM has had better troops. It is a fact of life. Also, your point about GK never losing to other marines if they play smart just isn't true.

SW and BA will give GK a run for their money in close combat with just basic troops. In fact, I wouldn't want to put the average strike squad against the average grey hunters or assault marines unit because it would be too close of a fight.

GK may not be perfectly balanced against every army, but they are actually very well balanced against other marine armies. The only thing I think may not be fair is SM troop choices, as scouts and tactics just don't compare to what the other armies get. But that has been a fact of life for years now, and the codex as a whole has a myriad of flexible choices for dealing with just about any situation.

Yes in, one or two instances GK get some unique power that the others can't match (warp quake and teleport shunt perhaps). But if you take a look at the bigger picture of codex vs codex, it isn't unbalanced compared to the abilities of other marines.

A ten man unit of GKs (strike squad) with all halberds vs. a 10 man assault squad from ba comes out to this

GKs have 11? attacks and get hammerhand off
6 hits 4 wounds

Ba attack back with 6 basic attacks 2x melta and PF
3 hits
1 wounds
0 failed saves
PF strikes 2 attacks
1 hit
1 wound

GKs win 4-1
That is without either side charging with a basic ba assault squad setup and an extremely expensive setup for the Strike squad. about 235 for the ba and the GKSS with a rhino 300

Without the halberds and if the ba have a priest with a pw then they go first and cause 4 failed armor saves including priest

GKs strike back and cause 2 wounds
and BA PF comes back and scores at least one more wound givng it to ba with 5-2

Quick question, do the GKs with psycannons also have FWs?

BTW these are all rough estimates and rounded generally in favor of the GKs

Thaylen wrote:I am afraid to play my Tau against these guys. The idea of multiple squads of interceptors, and a dreadknight or two sitting w/in 12" of me before the game even starts makes me cringe. Where it used to be an easy game if I had first turn, it will be damn near impossible if I don't have it. (Right now the only counter to the 30" scout shunt is to make the classic wall o' skimmers (but this assures the loss of my hammerheads and mobility)

I'm afraid to play my tau anganist anything i play them they suck only with luck can you win anyways yeah for shelfing until new dex.

Before transports are taken into consideration, here is what I consider to be "fully" kitted out squads;

SW: 10 Grey Hunters; 2 meltas, PF, MotW, Standard. 3 attacks for standard models always. One model has a powerfist and another has 1d6+2 rending attacks, always. = 205pts.

GK: 10 Strike Squad; 2 Psycannons, 0-1 daemon hammer*, 0-10 halberds, psybolt ammo. = 240-295.
* Having a daemon hammer on a standard non-justicar model is wasteful and non competitive, IMhO.

With 9 Halberds, a Strike Squad does indeed kill a healthy 6 MEQ's. But I doubt I will ever see halberds fielded on a strike squad. Normal swords will yield the same result but the Grey Hunters kill roughly 3 MEQ's in response. If the GH get the charge, then combat will be tied (although a daemon hammer would beat a powerfist, 1 attack to 2. )

Meltaguns are amazing. Psycannons seem like a white elephant. For those 4ppm (minimum) you get benefits such as storm bolters, hammerhand and power weapons, but you also loose out.

Both are great but neither trumps the other.

N.b: BA: Trickier but... Free Fast Rhinos or Jump Packs with DoA is pretty much the clincher here. In addition, it's quite easy to gain Furious charge & Feel No Pain for BA.

Thanks for the above post so I dont have to do a similar post.

lol "News Flash": I wasnt talking about tactical marines.. The word "marine" can mean anything that is in power armor and is a marine.. They all have the same stats, all that varies is the # of attacks generally.

10 Gks attacks > 30 space wolf attacks which I dont see how that isn't a lot better. Especially if you get to shoot with those storm bolters. If you have a grandmaster you can also get counter attack, or even just purifiers as they come out to almost the same price (due to 2 pt halberd upgrades for some reason)

Im not gonna run mathammer since most people can do simple calculations on their own, but even against 30 space wolves charging purifiers do more wounds in close combat. Knowing that 1 purifier > 3 space wolves, yet is not 3x the price comes off as a pretty good deal to me

Again, Im not talking about worthless tactical marines (I used their point costs as comparison cause most marines are similar in price) in combat. You add up everything from relatively low point cost compared to other marines + the ability to destroy transports with massive psycannon fire + beat them in CC almost every time and you have a PRETTY uphill battle as a marine player against GK. BA have furiosos which can kick the crap out of GK in close combat if you can block hammerhand on demon hammers. SW have a bunch of I4 guys which is a serious problem when an army can match you in mid-range shooting. Dreads can do well against long fangs, and so can interceptors. Expect to compare your units against PURIFIERS as every single army imo is gonna have 1-2 units of these guys due to how amazing they are. No unit can virtually handle every single problem in the game like they can

Are they unbeatable? of course not but I think it is VERY important to realize just how powerful each unit is and why basic GK power armor units can maul other power armor units. Having proper respect for the power of your opponents units leads to less mistakes. As biker nobz showed us in 2009 Point cost is irrelevant if it kills your opponent

Psycannon spam backed up with halberds is dangerous indeed

Yes you were talking about tactical marines because that was the example you gave.

Don't jump to other units for examples when your original point was clearly about basic troops. Yes purifiers rock and alot of GK players will take them, but they are not the only army able to make specialist units scoring. Using just other marines as an example: sternguard, assault marines, terminators, bikers, dreadnoughts. And there are probably more that I missed. Don't point to purifiers as being so incredible when other armies have the ability to gain scoring units of similar power.

You know what really messes purifiers up? Other dedicated assault units and literally any AP3 or better shooting. Seriously, th/ss terminators will absolutely wreck even a pimped out purifier squad, not to mention the rest of the army along with them.

You seem to miss the point that the poster above you is saying that SW grey hunters and BA assault marines are both great units, simply for different reasons than strike squads.

Yes, GK units that are tricked out might win one on one, but they are universally more expensive when you build them to do that. More expensive units means a smaller army. Which means that those other marine armies will outnumber the GK, hence its still fair.

At the end of the day, Gk units are individually powerful, but their lower numbers is the balancing factor.

It really is an issue when the amount of firepower it would take to wipe out GK armies, is far less than for any other codex of marines.

I totaly agree with kirsau on everything he said

Kirasu wrote:Knowing that 1 purifier > 3 space wolves, yet is not 3x the price comes off as a pretty good deal to me

That's a flawed way of looking at it. The purified costs 60% more than the grey hunter, so it need to do 60% more damage between shooting and CC than the grey hunters. Just because they do more damage per model does not mean that do more damage per point.

Thaylen wrote:I am afraid to play my Tau against these guys.

Why? If anything, I'd say they're easier for Tau than other 5th ed marine books.

yea and the Eldar is an entire up hill battle from the start .... runes of warding really shuts us down and trust me its a lot harder to kill a farseer in a falcon....or wave thingy

Lets just say that if Psycannons had a 36" range, grey knights would be unstoppable. They dominate the 24" midfield moreso than any other army, with a combination of amazing saves and massive fire from Psycannons and Stormbolters (S5 at that!). They are very balanced, I've found, in that they need to be played aggressively enough to get into 24" but also defensively enough to not get swamped/tarpitted/shot in the open by everything, due to a low model count. I really like their playstyle.

And I really like how my speedy Eldar run rings around them without getting hit. That aside, I voted somewhat competitive. They're no guard - but they're damn good if played to their strengths.

The tactical Fail wrote:yea and the Eldar is an entire up hill battle from the start .... runes of warding really shuts us down and trust me its a lot harder to kill a farseer in a falcon....or wave thingy

The Librarian is the only one that Eldar really 'shut down'. GK aren't relying upon Hammerhand or Force weapons to win in CC, and psydreads/psybacks/psycannons really don't care about psychic defense of any stripe when they're blasting away at AV12. Even then, the average on 3d6 is <12, so while perils is an issue, it's relatively safe to keep casting Shrouding every turn... and 3+ cover saves on AV11-12 really shuts down Eldar AV.

Average on 3d6 is 11 i do belive

The tactical Fail wrote:Average on 3d6 is 11 i do belive

10.5

So slightly less than half of the time you still get the powers off. Unless the power is critical (and usually isn't) it means you probably shouldn't be doing it.

I think the most competitive builds that are going to come out of this codex involve Monkeybus + 1st Turn Charge. Jokaero and melta-troopers in chimeras for troops (Coteaz), with shunting Dreadknights or Stormravens (2nd turn charge, but immanent threat) able to put up a first turn CC threat. Think of it as a leafblower guard list, but instead of ordinance and Hydra dakka you'll get credible CC threat that your opponent will have to deal with before they can get at your Chimeras. If all goes as planned, your opponent won't have enough time to deal with all of your objective grabbing MSUs after they wade out of whatever you ambushed them with.

(Edited for reading rules correctly )

I'm genna go with OK, but any top tier armies are going to beat their little sliver heads in.

It's the lack of melta and the unimpressiveness of the vanilla Grey Knight, 20pts for a Marines with a Force Weapon, I'm not that scared.

Small, Far Away wrote:
It's the lack of melta and the unimpressiveness of the vanilla Grey Knight, 20pts for a Marines with a Force Weapon, I'm not that scared.

your unimpressed with the normal marine or are you compareing them to whats in the rest of the codex
IMHO they are SIGNIFICANTLY better then tactical marines i can give 5 reasons as to how they are a more scarry
than your ultra smurff

Reason #1 they have power weapons ( as you understated ) that costs about 10 points in the vanilla marine codex

Reason #2 Stormbolters .. NOT ONLY do they shoot WAY better than tactical marines But they can do it on the move AND still Assault
AND to top it off they can make them S5 so they will be shooting BETTER than a devestator squad with heavy bolters

Reason #3 Psykers yes they get the abillity to become S5 ( S10 if you have a hammer in the squad )
and trust me S5 marines is nothing to disregard ( adding to the fact that they are power weapons )
and on top of that they have warp quake .... and i love it i mean you can force a mishap on a drop pod IMO thats pretty good
and they even make teleport homers and locator beacons turn off

Reason #4 psycannons while yes not as good at killing tanks as a melta gun or killing mega nobs as a plasmagun this weapon can still do it all
its the jack of all fields in terms of effectiveness and has a WAY better range than a melta or a plasma ( while moveing )

Reason #5 halberds yes now were I6 force weapons we are faster than a space marine with furious charge ( and thats saying something imo ) and we can be stationary ( heck give us counter attack and we still get the charge and still out I them


and all of this ..... for 4 points more than a tactical marine