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The easier way to post a youtube video is just to put the page address between [youtube ] tags.

Burning a flag is basically trolling IRL- you're only proving the right to speech/offensive ideas. No real protest can be helped by flag burning; it just makes people aware that you're trying to be obnoxious.

Say, isn't it about time that the WBC started burning flags?

micahaphone wrote:Burning a flag is basically trolling IRL- you're only proving the right to speech/offensive ideas. No real protest can be helped by flag burning; it just makes people aware that you're trying to be obnoxious.

I think it can also be done by people wishing to express opposition to American policy in an attention-getting way. Particularly in the context of a larger protest, like during Vietnam.

Mannahnin wrote:

micahaphone wrote:Burning a flag is basically trolling IRL- you're only proving the right to speech/offensive ideas. No real protest can be helped by flag burning; it just makes people aware that you're trying to be obnoxious.

I think it can also be done by people wishing to express opposition to American policy in an attention-getting way. Particularly in the context of a larger protest, like during Vietnam.

But isn't burning a flag basically saying "old conservative man- I want you to be so angry that you don't hear a word I say"? I mean, it's an amazing attention grabber, but it usually vilifies yourself.

Burning a flag in Death Valley might not have been the smartest choice. LSU is known for having some of the rowdiest students in the country. Believe me.

Hey, Manstein how long have you been in Baton Rouge?


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micahaphone wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

micahaphone wrote:Burning a flag is basically trolling IRL- you're only proving the right to speech/offensive ideas. No real protest can be helped by flag burning; it just makes people aware that you're trying to be obnoxious.

I think it can also be done by people wishing to express opposition to American policy in an attention-getting way. Particularly in the context of a larger protest, like during Vietnam.

But isn't burning a flag basically saying "old conservative man- I want you to be so angry that you don't hear a word I say"? I mean, it's an amazing attention grabber, but it usually vilifies yourself.

Definitely agree. Free speech is cool, you can say whatever you want. However, think about what you say and the consequences of those actions. "Will people listen to the argument I am making? Or will it just cause people to get angry and want to punch me in the face?"

It's just like an "art" exhibit where an "artist" put his aborted child in a glass jar. If he was trying to make a point, I completely missed it because I asking myself who the feth puts their aborted child in a jar for people to see. And I thought I was the crazy one.

You cannot say whatever you want by free speech, you can convey any idea. If you do so in certain ways it is actually illegal.

micahaphone wrote:
But isn't burning a flag basically saying "old conservative man- I want you to be so angry that you don't hear a word I say"? I mean, it's an amazing attention grabber, but it usually vilifies yourself.

Sometimes the best way to make a rhetorical argument is to make the opposition so angry that they do something stupid. This is the true purpose of trolling, a skill which few have mastered.

DickBandit wrote:Burning a flag in Death Valley might not have been the smartest choice. LSU is known for having some of the rowdiest students in the country. Believe me.

Hey, Manstein how long have you been in Baton Rouge?

I was born and raised in St. Francisville, just north of Baton Rouge proper. In that respect you can say I have been in BR for 20 some odd years, considering that anytime anyone in St. F wants to do anything we have to go to Baton Rouge. If you mean actually physically lived inside the city limits, four years.

The whole flag burning argument is just ridiculous, from both sides. Which is why it's so loved on university campuses, where every political argument is ridiculous.

sebster wrote:Which is why it's so loved on university campuses, where every political argument is ridiculous.

My constant mental refrain is "Why oh why didn't I pay more attention in econometrics."

Mannahnin wrote:The easier way to post a youtube video is just to put the page address between [youtube ] tags.

Lets try this. Oh it works. Excellent!

Being an outspoken man myself,I agree entirely with a guy having the right to burn the flag, its only a fething flag, who cares?

I might dislike the pinko hippy for doing it, but he should have the right.

It cant take anything away from anybody, It cant shadow the achievments of the military or proud Americans, I dont see the fuss.

I didnt mind the Muzzas burning the poppies either, because the more that we allow them to burn poppies and light flags, the more I can get away with saying how I feel about them.

And I cant even say that on dakka, so i hope they burn some more flags and poppies and the Mods will eventually wake up!

Frazzled wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:The easier way to post a youtube video is just to put the page address between [youtube ] tags.

Lets try this. Oh it works. Excellent!

Plus, you don't get those "mini-movies" that you keep posting.

micahaphone wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

micahaphone wrote:Burning a flag is basically trolling IRL- you're only proving the right to speech/offensive ideas. No real protest can be helped by flag burning; it just makes people aware that you're trying to be obnoxious.

I think it can also be done by people wishing to express opposition to American policy in an attention-getting way. Particularly in the context of a larger protest, like during Vietnam.

But isn't burning a flag basically saying "old conservative man- I want you to be so angry that you don't hear a word I say"? I mean, it's an amazing attention grabber, but it usually vilifies yourself.

No.

I believe it was originally meant to say something like "person who supports this flag and our country, I am extremely angry about what our country is doing, to the point that I feel like doing violence. I am not going to do real violence to a person, but symbolic violence instead. I want you to be angry too, so you feel a measure of what I am feeling and recognize that this issue is important."

Again, in the context of protests to the Vietnam war (or later, of the Iraq war), a protester is saying he is angry that Vietnamese people (and our own young draftee soldiers, in effect) were being killed by our country for spurious or insufficient reasons. Which is more appalling? The burning of a flag, or the burning/death of human beings?

If a person is so angry about the destruction of an object (not talking about a unique historical or sentimental object, or someone else's property; we're not talking about your wedding ring, or the original copy of the Consitution here) that they would consider doing violence to a person, that's a problem with that person being irrational and lacking perspective. Not the guy burning the flag.

Please note that I'm not saying everyone who burns a flag is doing it for good reasons or to make a real point. Sometimes they're just trolling/being a dick. Sometimes (like the douchebag who stole someone else's $8k flag to burn) they're an idiot and a criminal. I'm just saying that the act itself can be a legitimate way of grabbing attention/conveying a message. And the Supreme Court has ruled the same.

I think the very fact that burning a flag creates such heightened emotions is proof enough that it's a form of speech.

Polonius wrote:I think the very fact that burning a flag creates such heightened emotions is proof enough that it's a form of speech.

I disagree. Shooting random people in the head as you drive down the street engenders pretty strong emotions too. Thats not speech.

Similarly, burning a flag owned by someone else might be speech (expressing an idea symbolically), but is also a crime.

Whereas burning your own flag to express an idea is speech, and not a crime.

Frazzled wrote:

Polonius wrote:I think the very fact that burning a flag creates such heightened emotions is proof enough that it's a form of speech.

I disagree. Shooting random people in the head as you drive down the street engenders pretty strong emotions too. Thats not speech.

That doesn't prove that flag burning isn't speech, however.

Music evokes strong emotions. Does that mean music is a crime of indiscriminate violence?

(Cue Justin Beiber joke.)

Manstein wrote:

DickBandit wrote:Burning a flag in Death Valley might not have been the smartest choice. LSU is known for having some of the rowdiest students in the country. Believe me.

Hey, Manstein how long have you been in Baton Rouge?

I was born and raised in St. Francisville, just north of Baton Rouge proper. In that respect you can say I have been in BR for 20 some odd years, considering that anytime anyone in St. F wants to do anything we have to go to Baton Rouge. If you mean actually physically lived inside the city limits, four years.

Ah, I was caught off guard by the German flag by your avatar. I was born and raised in the BR for 18 years until I decided that working for the government would be a good idea... But i'll back there soon.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Polonius wrote:I think the very fact that burning a flag creates such heightened emotions is proof enough that it's a form of speech.

I disagree. Shooting random people in the head as you drive down the street engenders pretty strong emotions too. Thats not speech.

That doesn't prove that flag burning isn't speech, however.

Music evokes strong emotions. Does that mean music is a crime of indiscriminate violence?

(Cue Justin Beiber joke.)

Well, oh hell you already mentioned Justin Beiber... Baby thats a capital A felony!

To clarify my earlier post- I'm all for the right to burn flags, I just don't think it's a very good protest strategy. As previously stated, it vilifies yourself in the eyes of many people, closing down potential supporters.

If you burn an American flag (in America) you're a dick. I suppose you're a dick if you do it anywhere, but at least it's not directly in front of the people that it represents.

That said, I have to support the Free Speech of the flag burner as well as the counter protestors.

As an aside, I've been out of the OT for the most part over the last few days and people seem crankier than usual.

DickBandit wrote:

Manstein wrote:

DickBandit wrote:Burning a flag in Death Valley might not have been the smartest choice. LSU is known for having some of the rowdiest students in the country. Believe me.

Hey, Manstein how long have you been in Baton Rouge?

I was born and raised in St. Francisville, just north of Baton Rouge proper. In that respect you can say I have been in BR for 20 some odd years, considering that anytime anyone in St. F wants to do anything we have to go to Baton Rouge. If you mean actually physically lived inside the city limits, four years.

Ah, I was caught off guard by the German flag by your avatar. I was born and raised in the BR for 18 years until I decided that working for the government would be a good idea... But i'll back there soon.

Unfortunately, I'll probably be back in about a year. Born in BR, raised in NO, back to BR at 18, finally got to move out of the damned stated at 23.

It's quite the conundrum! The flag represents the country thats existence is based on the BoR, the BoR grants the right to expression.

I hate to sound much like the stereotypical "if you dont like 'merica you can geeeet out", but I would love to see someone burn a flag in a dictatorship or even China.

Movac wrote: but I would love to see someone burn a flag in a dictatorship

Wish granted.

What you meant to say was "I would love to see someone burn the flag of a dictatorship or China in that country".

Movac wrote:It's quite the conundrum! The flag represents the country thats existence is based on the BoR, the BoR grants the right to expression.

Exactly! No conundrum there. Our rights are more important than an object. Even one with symbolic value.

Movac wrote:I hate to sound much like the stereotypical "if you dont like 'merica you can geeeet out", but I would love to see someone burn a flag in a dictatorship or even China.

Isn't the point supposed to be that our system of rights and freedoms is better than a dictatorship? If your standard of okay is "you couldn't get away with that in a dictatorship!", well, yeah. That's the point. That's why we think our system is better.