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NoBaconz4You wrote:Umadbro?

I can't help but to chuckle whenever somebody uses the term "bro," even when used in such a poorly constructed word smash-up.

On topic: If it's true that GW will keep the prices of their resin line consistent with their outgoing metal line, then they are making a step in the right direction.

Personally, I'm not giving them another dime until they step back away from their ridiculous demands that internet retailers not ship to the southern hemisphere. I just can't feel right about supporting them while they interfere with the free trade of goods.

I'll still play, but I'll be using models I already have, plus the stuff I have on pre-order. It makes me mad that its come to this point where I don't feel like I can support the company behind the hobby that I love.

Mr Hyena wrote:

I doubt that. People find a way to complain about everything.

Just like how people like yourself try and excuse or dismiss anything.

Hellfury wrote:

Theduke07 wrote:Reaper also doesn't have a game system and stores to support. Reaper just makes generic stuff for the most part (well now they do. Not counting failed games of the past)

Is that meant to be a defense of why GW have such high prices?

Because if so, their retail outlets can burn for all I care. I prefer to game in places where I can bring whatever I want that I bought at that establishment instead of ignorant pontification about nothing else beyond GW existing on this planet.

I likely wouldn't have worded it that way, but I do agree.

Redbeard wrote:

On some specific models. Other items have no increase at all. What is the overall increase? Not 25%, I know that much.

Overall doesnt match inflation.

NoBaconz4You wrote:

BuFFo wrote:The flurry of poop GW has dropped on all our chests lately...

That gave me a horrible image

Delicious!

Phryxis wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would also like to point out that the cost of ammunition (as in for real firearms) has gone up by something like 100% over the last 10 years. There was a brief period in 2008 when you simply couldn't get certain calibers.

Is GW somehow involved with that, as well?

Red herring. Stop trying to deflect. Ammo has nothing to do with miniature gaming.

2 thoughts,

1. All this pricing furor is taking focus away from the games imbalances written into it by multiple codex writers.

2. I do miss the time i've paid $30AUD for a squad box that had ALL the options for a squad, I hate having to buy 2 boxes to get enough plastic guns to equip the squad the way I want, or even not have the extra options/models written in the codex list at all (looking at you Mr Medusa)

Phryxis wrote:One thing I never see mentioned is inflation. In virtually every place that GW products are sold, there is gradual inflation.

Since GW is a British company, I'd point out that the inflation rate there is hovering around 4%. Granted, there are all sorts of complexities in exchange rates, etc. etc. but at the end of the day, many first world countries have an inflation rate hovering around the 3-5% range.

That's yearly.

GW would have to increase their prices by a similar percentage in order to simply maintain real revenue.

I wouldn't claim to know enough about GW's bottom line to say if their current prices are optimal or not, but I find it funny that people are angrily and confidently saying they're "stupid" without exhibiting any awareness of simple/obvious/universal realities such as inflation.

Nope
Inflation gets mentioned all the time Phryxis.
The UK rate is 5%. The highest for 2 1/2 years. What were the price increases for the previous 2 years? Any money against it being above the inflation rate?

It also depends which index is used, as some include mortgages for house buyers that I don't see as being so relevant to GW who possibly rent premises? Anyway they have been closing down stores so it should be less of an issue

Also GB interest rates have been very low so borrowing for investment and mortgages should be a lot cheaper these days.

It also begs the question, why are some increases at 5% yet a whole load more at 20% ie 4x the current rate of inflation?

Anyone who watched Turn 8 will have seen that GW have simply said it is an annual increase, it is just a pre determined hike by GW as far as I can see.
Which is why even people with a decent grasp of economics are getting riled.

I'm curious to see their next couple financial reports just to see what happens to their sales and profits.

augustus5 wrote:

I can't help but to chuckle whenever somebody uses the term "bro,"

Thrax wrote:
Gain some perspective man, realize how much this is bankrupting people...

Perhaps people who are going bankrupt buying toy soldiers are the ones who need perspective. I buy models after...

My mortgage is paid.
I've put 10% towards retirement savings.
I've put 20% towards short-term savings
My utilities & other bills are paid.
My credit cards are paid off.
My food is budgeted for the month.

Only after all of the above do I think about entertainment spending, which is what hobbies are. That's "perspective". Some people here seem to think that toy soldiers are a right or a necessity. They're not. You'd be better off complaining about how the price of gasoline is up 35% over last year, or that essentials like milk, coffee, and beef are all up over 10% from their prices last year. (Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics). That's "perspective".


As another thought, if you're not doing the above. If you're buying toy soldiers on a credit card, if you're paying 20% interest on your entertainment. Maybe you're the reason that prices got so high to begin with. Maybe you should drop out of the hobby because it's too expensive. Quite possibly, people continuing to by models in excess of their means is skewing the supply-demand points? Possibly, not quitting when the prices get to high leads the GW executives to continue to believe that the market is price insensitive. They're only going to learn where the breaking point is when people break, and if people are going into debt to continue their habit, well, maybe that's why the prices are so high.

Or it could just be international prices. Someone in another one of these pricing threads had a link to an article that was saying the price of raw plastic is up like 75% (number might be off). If it costs more to make a land raider, it stands to reason that it costs more to buy one.

carmachu wrote:

Redbeard wrote:
On some specific models. Other items have no increase at all. What is the overall increase? Not 25%, I know that much.

Overall doesnt match inflation.

Did you compute this, I'm curious as to what the actual overall increase is.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alastair78 wrote:2 thoughts,

1. All this pricing furor is taking focus away from the games imbalances written into it by multiple codex writers.

Too true. I'm much more upset about stupidly written rules than I am about having to drop another $4 on a battlewagon.

Hellfury wrote:GW are not keeping up with the industry. GW are the reason why the industry is priced the way it is today.

Well, that and a 400% increase in the cost of metal over the last 5 years, plus soaring fuel prices which affect several aspects of manufacturing and shipping the product.)

Back on topic:

I didn't even consider that the OP mean't that there would be be a reduction in the cost of Finecast to match the prices on the metals they replaced. I simply assumed that if metals and finecast were the same price, it would be the price after this increase, matching the listed prices. In no way do i think that they will change the price of the resin models a week after they have retailers place orders, and a week before they go on sale.

The op wrote: Head office has informed me that the price of finecast minitures will be the same price to the old metal minitures and that the old metal minitures will still be avalible for years on their website.

Same price, not current price.)

My order for finecast had to be in by friday noon, hopefully I find out more about what I ordered several thousand dollars of this week. Can't sell it until Saturday, but I'll damn sure be taking a model home with me to paint the day they come in, so I can get a feel for the new materials and how they paint up.

Redbeard wrote:

Thrax wrote:
Gain some perspective man, realize how much this is bankrupting people...

Perhaps people who are going bankrupt buying toy soldiers are the ones who need perspective. I buy models after...

My mortgage is paid.
I've put 10% towards retirement savings.
I've put 20% towards short-term savings
My utilities & other bills are paid.
My credit cards are paid off.
My food is budgeted for the month.

Only after all of the above do I think about entertainment spending, which is what hobbies are. That's "perspective". Some people here seem to think that toy soldiers are a right or a necessity. They're not. You'd be better off complaining about how the price of gasoline is up 35% over last year, or that essentials like milk, coffee, and beef are all up over 10% from their prices last year. (Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics). That's "perspective".


As another thought, if you're not doing the above. If you're buying toy soldiers on a credit card, if you're paying 20% interest on your entertainment. Maybe you're the reason that prices got so high to begin with. Maybe you should drop out of the hobby because it's too expensive. Quite possibly, people continuing to by models in excess of their means is skewing the supply-demand points? Possibly, not quitting when the prices get to high leads the GW executives to continue to believe that the market is price insensitive. They're only going to learn where the breaking point is when people break, and if people are going into debt to continue their habit, well, maybe that's why the prices are so high.

Or it could just be international prices. Someone in another one of these pricing threads had a link to an article that was saying the price of raw plastic is up like 75% (number might be off). If it costs more to make a land raider, it stands to reason that it costs more to buy one.

carmachu wrote:

Redbeard wrote:
On some specific models. Other items have no increase at all. What is the overall increase? Not 25%, I know that much.

Overall doesnt match inflation.

Did you compute this, I'm curious as to what the actual overall increase is.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alastair78 wrote:2 thoughts,

1. All this pricing furor is taking focus away from the games imbalances written into it by multiple codex writers.

Too true. I'm much more upset about stupidly written rules than I am about having to drop another $4 on a battlewagon.

For all the points you make, you fail to realize that by "bankrupting people" I was speaking in a figurative case. OBVIOUSLY, nobody should be buying garbage like toy soldiers before they buy their bread and butter (again, don't take me literally on that, chief - it's a figure of speech). OBVIOUSLY, you have to have disposable income before you can intelligently purchase anything extraneous to the essentials of survival.

You think I am a moron or are you just having a bad day?

Furthermore, prices of plastics be damned. Go into a toy store, pick one, gather up a random assortment of plastic toys. See how many you can pile up before they equal the cost of a land raider. This is another ridiculous excuse made by those looking for reasons to defend the disproportionate cost of this hobby. If GW can't afford to do business the way they do, they need to alter their business model. You can stand by your "perspective" all that you desire, "sir," but in the end when the masses can no longer afford this hobby, you'll be playing by yourself - or perhaps with all of your well-to-do friends with their homes paid for, living debt free. You are the minority there, and lucky you, with all that money it must be nice to stick it to people who have to make do with less, those that are burned by price hikes more than you. The people that DO pay all of their bills, provide for their families, and otherwise cover their responsibilities but haven't the sweet swollen mound of bloody money that you sit upon to buy your overpriced wares with reckless abandon. Those people that would only like to have a little more for a little less so they can enjoy their hobby of so many years without having to spend the majority of their disposable income on a hobby that shouldn't be bleeding them as much as it now is.

Clearly you lack perspective as your arrogance is unfounded.

Rather than guessing inflation as many people citing it are, look it up.

Who's guessing? I'm using a figure of about 4% for England, more like 3% in the US. The US is pretty consistently 3%. I looked those numbers up. I happened to go here:

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/inflation-cpi

Comparing former retail prices to a deal that you can currently find is far from useful as a metric for debate.

Yeah, except that it's actually from a store that lists the GW MSRP, and then their discounted price, and I noted that it was roughly in line with the discounted prices I was seeing online. So, while I understand your objection, rest assured that I accounted for it.

But, regardless, we have a much more comprehensive effort from Ivan Isaaks, which concludes: "Overall the rise in those 9 years is 40ish%."

I'm sure there's some reason he's not right either... But, regardless, this is a rate of increase that outstrips inflation, but not by much.

If nothing else, I think it's worth noting that the Devilfish has remained the same price for 5 years, and you don't hear ANYBODY loudly screeching about what a great company GW is for keeping that particular price flat. It just doesn't seem like any of the people complaining about the prices are even capable of registering that some kits have effectively DECREASED in price for the last 5 years. It's not something they're even capable of internalizing.

Again, you're hopelessly focused on the incremental.

Ok, let's compare to other injection molded kits of similar size? A 1/32 scale Spitfire is about 30cm long, roughly the size of a Valkyrie. A Valkyrie can be had on Amazon for $53.

http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Guard-Plastic-Valkyrie-Warhammer/dp/B00274PJJO

Now, some Spitfires:

Here's one: http://www.amazon.com/1-32-Supermarine-Spitfire-Mk-Ixc/dp/B002PHZ024/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=toys-and-games&qid=1306111686&sr=1-1

That's $122.

Here's another: http://www.amazon.com/Revell-RVLS4704-Spitfire-MK-22-24/dp/B000L3GLOU/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1306111686&sr=1-3-fkmr1

That's $24.50.

http://www.amazon.com/Unimax-Forces-Valor-Scale-Spitfire/dp/B000BLFEZ4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=toys-and-games&qid=1306112039&sr=1-2

That's $62.

In general, the prices are all over the map, but compare pretty directly with the Valkyrie.

So, I don't think that demonstrates a "hopeless focus on the incremental" on my part, so much as a "hopeless presupposition of a conclusion" on your part.

Also, the incremental angle is quite relevant, as it's what one would look at when making the argument "I used to be willing to pay the prices, but now I am not." Comparing the prices of GW kits to some other, vaguely similar product only goes so far. It's much more useful to compare them to what one is willing to pay. And, really, why would anybody be in this debate if they weren't willing to pay the prices at some point in time?

This is an unsustainable business model for GW and sooner or later the bottom is going to drop out as the prices reach critical mass and the exodus ensues.

I hear a lot of this from people who probably don't have an MBA, but if I recall correctly the latest financial reports from GW have been pretty positive. I could be wrong on that, but the last time I paid attention, their profits were increasing, and they had paid off significant debt amassed while improving their technology base.

Their stock price has shown decent performance over the last two years, and through a particularly terrible economic period as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Red herring. Stop trying to deflect. Ammo has nothing to do with miniature gaming.

You realize that you just read a half dozen posts that had points that significantly undermine your argument, and you chose instead to cherry pick one point I made almost entirely in jest?

Hint: no, you don't realize that, otherwise you wouldn't have done it.

Any money against it being above the inflation rate?

I think we've established pretty conclusively that it's maybe 2% over inflation.

From there, one has to ask, is there any valid reason the prices should go up more than inflation? And that's why my ammo comment wasn't entirely in jest. The reason ammo prices went up so high, and why there was a temporary lack of availability, is because metal prices were high and remained high, and ammunition manufacturers put off purchasing, hoping prices would come down. Eventually they had to buy to keep operating, and prices were correspondingly high.

If a company doesn't raise prices in line with inflation, they're LOWERING prices.

If a company raises prices only slightly more than inflation, but also happens to make heavy use of a commodity which is going up in price, then they're simply responding to market realities.

Nobody has demonstrated that GW is doing anything more than that, and yet many people feel perfectly justified at assigning GW with nefarious intentions and attacking their morality, business sense, etc. I think those sorts of emotional attacks strongly correlate with the critical thinking skills of the people making them.

Phryxis wrote:

Rather than guessing inflation as many people citing it are, look it up.

Who's guessing? I'm using a figure of about 4% for England, more like 3% in the US. The US is pretty consistently 3%. I looked those numbers up. I happened to go here:

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/inflation-cpi

Comparing former retail prices to a deal that you can currently find is far from useful as a metric for debate.

Yeah, except that it's actually from a store that lists the GW MSRP, and then their discounted price, and I noted that it was roughly in line with the discounted prices I was seeing online. So, while I understand your objection, rest assured that I accounted for it.

But, regardless, we have a much more comprehensive effort from Ivan Isaaks, which concludes: "Overall the rise in those 9 years is 40ish%."

I'm sure there's some reason he's not right either... But, regardless, this is a rate of increase that outstrips inflation, but not by much.

If nothing else, I think it's worth noting that the Devilfish has remained the same price for 5 years, and you don't hear ANYBODY loudly screeching about what a great company GW is for keeping that particular price flat. It just doesn't seem like any of the people complaining about the prices are even capable of registering that some kits have effectively DECREASED in price for the last 5 years. It's not something they're even capable of internalizing.

Again, you're hopelessly focused on the incremental.

Ok, let's compare to other injection molded kits of similar size? A 1/32 scale Spitfire is about 30cm long, roughly the size of a Valkyrie. A Valkyrie can be had on Amazon for $53.

http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Guard-Plastic-Valkyrie-Warhammer/dp/B00274PJJO

Now, some Spitfires:

Here's one: http://www.amazon.com/1-32-Supermarine-Spitfire-Mk-Ixc/dp/B002PHZ024/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=toys-and-games&qid=1306111686&sr=1-1

That's $122.

Here's another: http://www.amazon.com/Revell-RVLS4704-Spitfire-MK-22-24/dp/B000L3GLOU/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1306111686&sr=1-3-fkmr1

That's $24.50.

http://www.amazon.com/Unimax-Forces-Valor-Scale-Spitfire/dp/B000BLFEZ4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=toys-and-games&qid=1306112039&sr=1-2

That's $62.

In general, the prices are all over the map, but compare pretty directly with the Valkyrie.

So, I don't think that demonstrates a "hopeless focus on the incremental" on my part, so much as a "hopeless presupposition of a conclusion" on your part.

Also, the incremental angle is quite relevant, as it's what one would look at when making the argument "I used to be willing to pay the prices, but now I am not." Comparing the prices of GW kits to some other, vaguely similar product only goes so far. It's much more useful to compare them to what one is willing to pay. And, really, why would anybody be in this debate if they weren't willing to pay the prices at some point in time?

This is an unsustainable business model for GW and sooner or later the bottom is going to drop out as the prices reach critical mass and the exodus ensues.

I hear a lot of this from people who probably don't have an MBA, but if I recall correctly the latest financial reports from GW have been pretty positive. I could be wrong on that, but the last time I paid attention, their profits were increasing, and they had paid off significant debt amassed while improving their technology base.

Their stock price has shown decent performance over the last two years, and through a particularly terrible economic period as well.

Good for you, you've cherry picked some plastic model kits that coincide with your points. I just found literally 3 dozen 1/32 kits that range from $12.99 to upwards of $149.99 - whats your point? Oh, you want proof? Here ya go: http://www.ehobbies.com/models-aircraft-glue-kits.html

Who needs an MBA to use common sense? You think teenage boys will have thousands to spend on warhammer or furthermore the attention span to stick with the hobby long enough to see an army through when everything costs more than instant gratification? Their stock price is floating on their yearly price hikes. I would have no problem if every model in the range went up slightly, but some are going up far more than $3-$4 - almost arbitrarily at that. Couple the annual price hikes with the garbage they've pulled on the southern hemisphere, link that up with massive staffing cuts that have left a documented decrease in sales (don't take my word for it: http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/19244.html), and everything else they've done to stop the short term bleeding, and eventually we'll see those stock prices fall as the revenue steam does. Amazing how there will be a correlation to match.

I don't care if you believe me, I don't care if you dislike me - time will tell who is correct, and eventually you'll see GW will either alter course to respond to a failing model, or they and their shareholders are truly in for a rough ride.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And before you dig into that article and go "Haha, even the article you cited talks about a recent upswing in sales" note that is all before this recent fallout in the community and the effect many disenfranchised consumers will leave as they cut back on their purchases from the company. Am I saying GW is doomed to die tomorrow? Nope. I am saying they're not on a very good course, and if they continue this way, they'll either force themselves out of their own targeted demographic, or they'll force themselves to eventually alter their retail architecture.

Thrax wrote:
You think I am a moron or are you just having a bad day?

Well, neither initially, but after your last post, definitely the former

Furthermore, prices of plastics be damned. Go into a toy store, pick one, gather up a random assortment of plastic toys. See how many you can pile up before they equal the cost of a land raider.

The price of plastic isn't irrelevant. Random toys at a toy store - prices all over the map. Lego... yeah, that's actually fairly comparable to GW stuff. Here's a new lego model that's $90 for a truck and a few men: http://shop.lego.com/ByTheme/Product.aspx?p=7066&cn=738&d=70

Here's a random star wars toy - first link that came up when I typed Star Wars on Amazon toys: http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Clone-Starfighter-Vehicle/dp/B003A6JLII/ref=pd_sim_t_4. $54. Here's another http://www.amazon.com/Animated-Action-Figure-Flamethrower-Trooper/dp/B0041HQSH2/ref=pd_sbs_t_1 - $16 for a single action figure.

As a previous poster noted, looking for scale models, they're relatively similar in price too. Yeah, you want cheap crappy plastic toys, you can find them. But if you want anything 'nice', especially anything with any sort of IP behind it (rather than the generic "yellow truck"), you're looking at similar prices.

This is another ridiculous excuse made by those looking for reasons to defend the disproportionate cost of this hobby.

Disproportionate compared to what, exactly. I think the links above should show you that the cost of this hobby is not disproportionate to that of other quality toys.

... class warfare rant ...
Clearly you lack perspective as your arrogance is unfounded.

My arrogance? Did you read what you wrote? Sorry, I don't have piles of bloody money, but I do know something about how to budget. You're trying to turn this into class warfare. Are you next going to demand that golf courses open up to the "masses" as well. Are you going to expect that Ferrari produce cars for the "masses"? Do "the masses" deserve luxury boxes at NFL games and courtside seats at the NBA finals? Do you know anything about GWs internal financial situation? On what basis, other than "I want more for less" are you claiming that they don't know how to run their business correctly?

I don't have any of their financial data. But I'm willing to bet that, as a public company, run by professionals with training in business operations, and twenty-plus years experience in this marketplace, they know not only what they're doing, but also why they need to. They're not ignoring the price of plastic. They're not ignoring that their employees need to eat. So while you want more for less, do you really believe that these people are completely incompetent, or unaware of market pressures? Do you really think they failed business 101, and are unable to appropriately price their merchandise? Yes, maybe more people could afford it if it were cheaper. But it might be that it's unprofitable to sell for less. You can't sell at a loss and hope to make it up in volume, you know.

Good for you, you've cherry picked some plastic model kits that coincide with your points.

I did? I'm pretty sure I listed one that was cheaper, one that was much more expensive, and one that was similar. How is that "cherry picking?"

Who needs an MBA to use common sense?

Aha. Apparently you feel it requires nothing but "common sense" to operating a multi-million dollar company?

The thing is, GW is a company that has been around for 20+ years, which turns a profit, and which employs dozens of people. Put simply, it's management has far more credibility than somebody who thinks "common sense" dictates that they're going to go out of business.

I'm not really sure what you're claiming is happening, or will happen, because, in general, people with your style of argumentation don't like to make any substantive, tangible claims, but if you're suggesting that GW is going out of business over the next few years, that's something I'd love to take a wager on.

And, quite frankly, if "bottom dropping out" and "mass exodus," and "unsustainable" doesn't mean that GW either goes out of business, or significantly reduces prices (as you seem to think would benefit them), then wouldn't that make you completely wrong?

Here, I'll make a prediction: GW will continue to raise their prices at roughly the same rate they are now (about 4.5% a year), and will still have the largest market share in the industry two years from now.

Care to disagree with that?

And, let me ask this as well: Are you of the opinion that if GW reduced their prices to, say, the same dollar amounts they had in 2005, that their profits would increase?

mikhaila wrote:

Hellfury wrote:GW are not keeping up with the industry. GW are the reason why the industry is priced the way it is today.

Well, that and a 400% increase in the cost of metal over the last 5 years, plus soaring fuel prices which affect several aspects of manufacturing and shipping the product.)

Mikhaila, as a retailer I am sure you understand that this happened long before such was part of todays reality. Nowadays it is just part of the realities of manufacturing in tin amalgam and shipping that heavy crap everywhere.

Well this will be interesting to see if this happens down in Oz as held/seen the price increases for us, some of the models are $10 up on the metal stock.

But just maybe they have listened to everyone having cheese and whine and just maybe thought "hmm - let's keep the prices the same". One can only hope that is true but like all things, I'll believe it when I see it.

Kanluwen wrote:And those sales numbers decreasing coincide nicely with the 'popping' of the aptly named "Lord of the Rings Bubble".

Once the movies died down, GW's products stopped being in 'mainstream' places like Borders, Barnes and Noble, and even Toys-R-Us.

It's also been 5 years since then, so how long are you going to cling onto the notion that the LOTR bubble burst from five years ago is the reason for GW's current monetary woes?

Redbeard wrote:

Thrax wrote:
You think I am a moron or are you just having a bad day?

Well, neither initially, but after your last post, definitely the former

Furthermore, prices of plastics be damned. Go into a toy store, pick one, gather up a random assortment of plastic toys. See how many you can pile up before they equal the cost of a land raider.

The price of plastic isn't irrelevant. Random toys at a toy store - prices all over the map. Lego... yeah, that's actually fairly comparable to GW stuff. Here's a new lego model that's $90 for a truck and a few men: http://shop.lego.com/ByTheme/Product.aspx?p=7066&cn=738&d=70

Here's a random star wars toy - first link that came up when I typed Star Wars on Amazon toys: http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Clone-Starfighter-Vehicle/dp/B003A6JLII/ref=pd_sim_t_4. $54. Here's another http://www.amazon.com/Animated-Action-Figure-Flamethrower-Trooper/dp/B0041HQSH2/ref=pd_sbs_t_1 - $16 for a single action figure.

As a previous poster noted, looking for scale models, they're relatively similar in price too. Yeah, you want cheap crappy plastic toys, you can find them. But if you want anything 'nice', especially anything with any sort of IP behind it (rather than the generic "yellow truck"), you're looking at similar prices.

This is another ridiculous excuse made by those looking for reasons to defend the disproportionate cost of this hobby.

Disproportionate compared to what, exactly. I think the links above should show you that the cost of this hobby is not disproportionate to that of other quality toys.

... class warfare rant ...
Clearly you lack perspective as your arrogance is unfounded.

My arrogance? Did you read what you wrote? Sorry, I don't have piles of bloody money, but I do know something about how to budget. You're trying to turn this into class warfare. Are you next going to demand that golf courses open up to the "masses" as well. Are you going to expect that Ferrari produce cars for the "masses"? Do "the masses" deserve luxury boxes at NFL games and courtside seats at the NBA finals? Do you know anything about GWs internal financial situation? On what basis, other than "I want more for less" are you claiming that they don't know how to run their business correctly?

I don't have any of their financial data. But I'm willing to bet that, as a public company, run by professionals with training in business operations, and twenty-plus years experience in this marketplace, they know not only what they're doing, but also why they need to. They're not ignoring the price of plastic. They're not ignoring that their employees need to eat. So while you want more for less, do you really believe that these people are completely incompetent, or unaware of market pressures? Do you really think they failed business 101, and are unable to appropriately price their merchandise? Yes, maybe more people could afford it if it were cheaper. But it might be that it's unprofitable to sell for less. You can't sell at a loss and hope to make it up in volume, you know.

You're charming, pal. Love how you accuse me of trying to turn this into class warfare when in all actuality I am advocating for my fellow hobbyists - clearly something you've got a problem with. You sound like a politician the way you try to characterize a tabletop game as being on par with a high-class luxury item such as a ferrari or box seats for major league sports. That, to me, alludes to your own viewpoints on class. And I don't care about your golf course, bud - I hate golf - father swore by it, never could stand it - but that's irrelevant. I also like how you undermine the motivations of myself and many here with similar viewpoints by characterizing us as a bunch of whiners that want stuff for little to nothing. I've been in the hobby since 1990, I've paid a lot of money for the little pieces of plastic I paint - for years I did so without any contempt. However, there comes a point where the prices become a concern and things need to be given serious thought. GW, for all their alleged marketing brilliance and business acumen (your impression, not mine) have been making rather drastic moves the last couple of years that lead myself and a LOT of other people to question the competence of their current business model - this isn't simply about annual price rises either, there's much more to it than that - clearly you needn't look far in this forum to see this. Their financial numbers aren't what concern most people - it's the effect their business practices have had on the accessibility of the hobby for a great many people.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:And those sales numbers decreasing coincide nicely with the 'popping' of the aptly named "Lord of the Rings Bubble".

Once the movies died down, GW's products stopped being in 'mainstream' places like Borders, Barnes and Noble, and even Toys-R-Us.

It's also been 5 years since then, so how long are you going to cling onto the notion that the LOTR bubble burst from five years ago is the reason for GW's current monetary woes?

There's no "clinging onto the notion".

It, as Kilkrazy said, hid the rot that was already starting to occur.
Their sales figures have been diminishing since the popping of the LOTR bubble. They were diminishing even before the LOTR bubble.

The problem is, of course, that the management that we have now is hoping for another bubble. It's likely going to happen with "The Hobbit", but hopefully they don't get stupid in regards to that and point to it as "CLEARLY THIS IS WHAT OUR FIGURES SHOULD ALWAYS BE!".

Phryxis wrote:

Good for you, you've cherry picked some plastic model kits that coincide with your points.

I did? I'm pretty sure I listed one that was cheaper, one that was much more expensive, and one that was similar. How is that "cherry picking?"

Who needs an MBA to use common sense?

Aha. Apparently you feel it requires nothing but "common sense" to operating a multi-million dollar company?

The thing is, GW is a company that has been around for 20+ years, which turns a profit, and which employs dozens of people. Put simply, it's management has far more credibility than somebody who thinks "common sense" dictates that they're going to go out of business.

I'm not really sure what you're claiming is happening, or will happen, because, in general, people with your style of argumentation don't like to make any substantive, tangible claims, but if you're suggesting that GW is going out of business over the next few years, that's something I'd love to take a wager on.

And, quite frankly, if "bottom dropping out" and "mass exodus," and "unsustainable" doesn't mean that GW either goes out of business, or significantly reduces prices (as you seem to think would benefit them), then wouldn't that make you completely wrong?

Here, I'll make a prediction: GW will continue to raise their prices at roughly the same rate they are now (about 4.5% a year), and will still have the largest market share in the industry two years from now.

Care to disagree with that?

And, let me ask this as well: Are you of the opinion that if GW reduced their prices to, say, the same dollar amounts they had in 2005, that their profits would increase?

I don't give a damn what you think of my credibility either, who made your opinion credible, anyways? My "claims" are the fact that a lot of people are out there, upset over the fact that they cannot afford to be as involved in the hobby as they used to be - my "claims" are that this is not good for the future of the hobby as it's going to not only be detrimental to sales, it's going to prevent a lot of people from creating growth in the hobby as they'll be spending less, looking elseware for their gaming, etc. I don't care to play games with your predictions either, I honestly don't care if you agree with me or not. I have NEVER stated: "OMFG GW needs to LOWER PRICES immediately!! OMGZ it's all gonna end!" I have been consistent in saying that their model of business is going to lead the hobby into a crappy direction as more people get out of it and scale back their purchases as a result of the events we see again and again. Heh, you love your abrasive little questions, don't you?

Phryxis wrote:

4% inflation justifies a 17% price increase how?

Are GW prices increasing by 17% a year? My impression is that these price hikes only come along every 2-3 years.

Even if that's not the case, people are describing hikes of 5% in some cases, more in others. My point is that 4% a year is, essentially, "holding steady."

.

UK inflation was running under 2% a year for much of the decade preceding the global financial crisis.

I am both upset that they hiking their prices and upset that now they tell me where am i allowed to buy.

On the flip side, if we agree to a 50% price increase total since 2005 (6 years ago, meaning about 20 bucks for 10 marines then 30 now) i am glad to see that their sales numbers dropped about 20%, and this was with out the high quality plastic competition that is in the horizon. I think 1 or 2 more years of this should get the message across.

Phryxis wrote:

4% inflation justifies a 17% price increase how?

Are GW prices increasing by 17% a year? My impression is that these price hikes only come along every 2-3 years.

Even if that's not the case, people are describing hikes of 5% in some cases, more in others. My point is that 4% a year is, essentially, "holding steady."

People can claim that they're TOTALLY factoring in inflation when they register their loudly enraged complaints, but I never seem to see the phrase "adjusted for inflation," and instead I see a lot of this:

I find it sad you dont seem to understand whats going on. Hell I dont think you even understand inflation at all.

Right, good point, I'm pretty sure that level of hostility is completely justified.

Yeah, the problem with that is that the economies of most industrialized nations contracted a couple of points last year yet GW still raised prices...holding steady, that isn't.

Thrax wrote:
You're charming, pal. Love how you accuse me of trying to turn this into class warfare when in all actuality I am advocating for my fellow hobbyists - clearly something you've got a problem with.

I have nothing against advocating for other hobbyists. I have issues with people with little to no data, and seemingly no understanding of bigger-picture issues making poorly thought-out commentary. You have constantly made claims that other toys are not similarly priced, while ignoring the fact that several of us have shown you links that prove that they are. You have made comments stating that the cost of the hobby is disproportionate. I don't think you know what that word means. Disproportionate to what?

If Mikhaila were making these statements, I'd respect his position. He has more data. And, yet, what he has said in this thread, and others, is that GW products are selling very well in his store, and he's expanding. You, however, have no credibility and no data. You're making unfounded claims and ignoring real-world data that others are presenting. You're living in fantasy land. You want more for less. I'm sure we all do, but we live in reality.

You sound like a politician the way you try to characterize a tabletop game as being on par with a high-class luxury item such as a ferrari or box seats for major league sports. That, to me, alludes to your own viewpoints on class. ... I've been in the hobby since 1990

I haven't been in the hobby since 1990. In 1990, I was in college. I had little money, and what I did have wasn't spent on toy soldiers. Believing that one should spend within one's means is not classist, it's realistic. And the comparisons to luxury goods also has nothing to do with class, but the general concept that no one deserves anything. If you can afford something, good for you. If you cannot, you do without. That's life. If more people understood that, we wouldn't be in the recession we're in.

I also like how you undermine the motivations of myself and many here with similar viewpoints by characterizing us as a bunch of whiners that want stuff for little to nothing.

I am not characterizing you as a whiner who wants stuff for little. I'm characterizing you as ignorant of the details and not in a position to make claims about how a company should be run. I'm also characterizing you, specifically, as being willfully ignorant of market factors that myself and others have discussed. Your take on these has been "Furthermore, prices of plastics be damned." Clearly, willful ignorance advances this discussion.

Their financial numbers aren't what concern most people - it's the effect their business practices have had on the accessibility of the hobby for a great many people.

I realize this as well. I am willing to believe that the people running GW are smart enough to realize that a hobby like this lives and dies based on participation. What you seem to be discounting is that they may not have a choice. As I said before, you cannot sell at a loss and make it up in volume. I'm sure they'd like to attract more new customers. But if the prices of raw materials and the costs of their salaries don't allow that, what are they supposed to do? You do not have the data. You are making unfounded claims about what they should change without considering whether doing so is a realistic business move. Companies need to make money. If they fail to do that, they quickly cease to exist. They've managed to figure that out for 20+ years now. Perhaps you should give them a little credit.

This post is nonsense, and I can't believe it hasn't been mod-locked/deleted yet.

Rumors of the same pricing just as they announce a price hike as high as 25% for some stuff? Yea...

The rumor was the same pricing for finecast items only... not that I necessarily believe it, but it'd certainly be nice.

RiTides wrote:The rumor was the same pricing for finecast items only... not that I necessarily believe it, but it'd certainly be nice.

Yes, they will be the same price as the stuff that just became more expensive.

Redbeard wrote:I realize this as well. I am willing to believe that the people running GW are smart enough to realize that a hobby like this lives and dies based on participation. What you seem to be discounting is that they may not have a choice. As I said before, you cannot sell at a loss and make it up in volume. I'm sure they'd like to attract more new customers. But if the prices of raw materials and the costs of their salaries don't allow that, what are they supposed to do? You do not have the data. You are making unfounded claims about what they should change without considering whether doing so is a realistic business move. Companies need to make money. If they fail to do that, they quickly cease to exist. They've managed to figure that out for 20+ years now. Perhaps you should give them a little credit.

Many companies sell one or two products at a loss and sell complementary products for profit - see printers+ink, razors+blades, the entire concept of loss-leaders. GW should be selling AOBR, IOB, and perhaps even battleforces as loss-leaders, or at least for minimal profit, to attract customers. Rulebooks and Codices also. But they seem determined to make people pay for what other business would be happy to give away for free; "to use this product, you MUST also buy this product for $95".
Looking at GW's financials, the vast majority of their costs are their retail stores. These stores, for the most part, aren't making money. They are using their sales on models to support these stores. Their entire store premise is as advertising, and the spend about 2/3 of their annual budget running this advertising. At some point, a savvy business owner should realise that their stores aren't nearly bringing in enough new sales to justify their continued expense. Furthermore, they are continuously cutting staff (so the stores provide less of a service and therefore less sales) but the real cost of the store is rent.
To bring this back to finecast: GW is (or should be) drastically decreasing their production costs. I don't know anything much about the price of resin, but lets say it costs 10% of metal for the same volume. They're now saving 90% on their most expensive per-model lines. Surely this would be directly and quickly reflected in their financial statements. GW should also be saving considerably on shipping costs after switching to resin.

GW isn't 'quick;y' ceasing to exist. More like, they are slowly dying. It is clear that their sales volume is steadily decreasing; profits remain the same, which keeps the company afloat, but participation is what makes the game successful. GW may well have pushed themselves over equilibrium point here which will lead to a drastic drop in sales.