How many people really know all the rules to these games?

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**Spyder68**

Only time i look at the rulebook is when somone else questions a rule or wants to see one.

I usually read all the codex's and know the rules for the army..

Every now and then i double check.. but its rare.

**Balance**

I would generally prefer tog et to the point where the ruleboox/army books aren't necessary in play for a game, but I still want them at hand in case of unexpected circumstances, scenarios, etc.

**Smacks**

Insaniak wrote:I think your perception is perhaps a little tinted by your being more familiar with those rules. Because there were just as many special rules in the 2nd edition codexes as there are in today's version. All the black codex gave you in most cases was the base statline and weapons.

The black Army List book was certainly 'no nonsense', it was just Statline, Wargear, Points cost.

However there was also another book included with the 2nd edition starter called Codex Imperialis. That book had full fluffy descriptions of all the factions and their units, and the special rules for using those units in games. It had everything from Tech Priests to Aspect Warriors, Adaptus Sororitas to Daemonettes, Halflings to Hive Tyrants. Mad Boyz, Weird Boyz, Stormboyz, Harlequins, Eldar Scouts... It was pretty comprehensive for the time.

As such... the codex books weren't exactly full of surprises if you had already read Codex Imperialis.

Though I feel we are drifting here. My original point was that 2nd edition was a complete game. By that I mean: everything you needed to field any of the existing factions was in the box.

That just isn't true with 5th edition. You can't pick up the BRB and field all the factions, you can't even field one faction. So to get back on topic, it is much harder now to have even a basic overview of the rules than it used to be.

**Jubear**

Frazzled wrote:
Jubear wrote:I have been thinking lately about how many of the folks in my local gaming group/coven dont actaully have a good grasp of the rules for the systems they play.

I bring this up after spending yet another game having to work out nearly everything from combat res to even basic stuff like what my opponent needs to hit. It seems that my local group use me as a "rulebook" of sorts (they all own copies of the rules for everything we play) I finally reached my limit halfway thru a game of fantasy last week and simply refused to work stuff out for the guy I was playing against and as I watched him stumble thru working out a combat I relised that when It comes down to it the guys I am playing about seem ok about dropping $1000 aus on an army but wont spend a night reading a rulebook.

So if your reading this and you know you do this to someone please remember the following

1. If your going to spend hours and hours assembling and painting some uber new unit please take 5 minutes to learn its special rules.

2. Read your fething rulebook.

3. remember the basic statlines in your army I have played marines players who dont know a basic SMs statline...

4. If you are unsure of a rule or need help it takes 5 minutes to post on dakka to get an answer.

You really should mellow out or Life (TM) is going to utterly and royally kick your ass when you're faced with a real problem. Its pushing around toy soldiers making "pew pew" noises. Get over yourself.

I just want to be able to play a game without having to tell the same guy 80 times that he needs a 3 to hit.....

And I dont know about you but I am playing a wargame with a defined set of rules if I wanted to push little guys around and make pew pew noises I would buy some matchbox cars and a bag of army men.

**Frazzled**

I see your problem right there. You think 40K is a wargame. EPIC is a wargame. Panzerleader is a wargame. 40K is tic tac toe with painted toy soldiers.

So young, so young.

**Eilif**

Frazzled wrote:I see your problem right there. You think 40K is a wargame. EPIC is a wargame. Panzerleader is a wargame. 40K is tic tac toe with painted toy soldiers.

So young, so young.

Hillarious, and mostly true.

I'd give 40k the benefit-of-the-doubt of at least being a skirmish Sci-Fantasy wargame, but it's definitley not a wargame with the tactical dimensions of the games that you mention. What really gets me is how GW has managed- through poor layout and abundance of specialized rules- to make 40k so much more complicated than the mechanics and scope of the game would suggest should be the case.

As for me, when I want 40k style game, I play WarEngine. When I want a "Wargame" (in the Frazzled sense) I break out Future War Commander, which is not even that complex of a game compared to some others.

**Frazzled**

Eilif wrote:
Frazzled wrote:I see your problem right there. You think 40K is a wargame. EPIC is a wargame. Panzerleader is a wargame. 40K is tic tac toe with painted toy soldiers.

So young, so young.

Hillarious, and mostly true.

I'd give 40k the benefit-of-the-doubt of at least being a skirmish Sci-Fantasy wargame, but it's definitley not a wargame with the tactical dimensions of the games that you mention. What really gets me is how GW has managed- through poor layout and abundance of specialized rules- to make 40k so much more complicated than the mechanics and scope of the game would suggest should be the case.

As for me, when I want 40k style game, I play WarEngine. When I want a "Wargame" (in the Frazzled sense) I break out Future War Commander, which is not even that complex of a game compared to some others.

Agreed on all counts.

**scarletsquig**

This is one of the main reasons I like mantic.

Simple rules, no messing around.

**Kirasu**

I know all rules that are real or imagined for every game ever conceived in the minds of human or alien

**Jubear**

Frazzled wrote:I see your problem right there. You think 40K is a wargame. EPIC is a wargame. Panzerleader is a wargame. 40K is tic tac toe with painted toy soldiers.

So young, so young.

Lolz I play Force on Force and Rapid fire when I need to get my "real" wargaming fix (ok Force on force is abstract skirmish but its good) and would be playing epic if I had the time to scour ebay for the figs. However I like tic tac toe grimdark edition I just want the guys I play to skim over the rulebook.