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Its good to see that people are being scientific about this rather than just making snap judgements.

Particularly interested in the results of the paint stripping experiments when they come.

I took the original blog down due to threats...

Are you serious?

@nkelsch

While it is good to add an ork as a 'control' for the experiment in order to be fair to GW could you add a resin miniature from another manufacturer aswell.
While the current results are alarming have we any reason to claim the new PP plastic Sorscha or Denny would fare any better.
Maybe just maybe we are being unfair to GW over finecasts heat resistance, I wonder if PP plastic resin is superior or just that no-one was motivated to test it in the same fashion.

warspawned wrote:

I took the original blog down due to threats...

Are you serious?

Yes I'm serious. I knew I'd get some flack and name calling etc. but I also had what I'd consider three quite serious threats against me. I have no doubt they were probably just internet warriors but nevertheless having threats made against your life because of a Blog is a bit extreme if you ask me. So I took it down partly due to that but also because at the Games Expo in Birmingham I had somebody argue with me that my Gandalf had melted into a pool of goo and he knew it had happened and was convinced of that fact even when I told him it was my blog and my Gandalf. I'd also seen some quite bizarre discussions about it claiming I'd said things I never had. But ho hum there you go that's the internet for you. I'm trying to keep my blog positive from now on and I'm only going to cover things I can be positive about on my blog:

http://thefrontlinegamer.blogspot.com/


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orlanth wrote:@nkelsch

While it is good to add an ork as a 'control' for the experiment in order to be fair to GW could you add a resin miniature from another manufacturer aswell.
While the current results are alarming have we any reason to claim the new PP plastic Sorscha or Denny would fare any better.
Maybe just maybe we are being unfair to GW over finecasts heat resistance, I wonder if PP plastic resin is superior or just that no-one was motivated to test it in the same fashion.

Well I own a lot of Resin, including stuff from Kingdom of Death, Srudio McVey, Bane Legions and the new PP Plastic resin and I've had no issues with warping in the same room with any of it. I will say though that the PP plastic resin isn't picking up anywhere near as much detail as resins used by other firms. It does however feel like a more durable substance although I couldn't tell you what the shore-D rating of any of the above was.

Orlanth wrote:@nkelsch

While it is good to add an ork as a 'control' for the experiment in order to be fair to GW could you add a resin miniature from another manufacturer aswell.
While the current results are alarming have we any reason to claim the new PP plastic Sorscha or Denny would fare any better.
Maybe just maybe we are being unfair to GW over finecasts heat resistance, I wonder if PP plastic resin is superior or just that no-one was motivated to test it in the same fashion.

While doing this would be completely up to nkelsch, I personally find this distracting. Other companies products are not what are showing significant numbers of miscasts or using a 'new' material that is questionable. Because of those questionable concerns this is being done for FineCast. I think the Orc was added as a control because we are all very familiar with GW's plastics and are very happy with them. The resin as it is now at most has maybe a satisfaction rate of 50% and most of that is stemming only from weight and ease of cutting etc.

SirAngry wrote:I'm the author of the actual original blog. I'm actually looking forward to seeing what happens as well. I've left my Dwarf Gyrocopter in the loft room, out of the sunlight to see what happens, remembering this is a day 1 purchase as well and there has been some slight warp on the blades... no I'm not putting pictures up, not after last time. lol. However its no where near as bad as my Gandalf was. As I've said this leads me to believe my Gandalf was highly faulty and should never have been allowed near the shelves. I've had people in the industry contact me and explain or try to explain what they think is going on. I've been told finecast is a polyutherane with a synthetic rubber on more than one occasion by different people and that would explain the lower temps the stuff requires to become malleable (not melting) and also the memory the substance seems to have. I took the original blog down due to threats and just outright mis-information that was attributed to me. I never posted a picture of my Gandalf in a puddle of goo as people seemed to be claiming I put it out there because regardless of whether or not the miniature was faulty I found the incident unacceptable regardless, especially in light of the price. I have to say though GW fanboi's have hammered the final nail in the GW gaming coffin for me because the response of some to the issues with Finecast and anyone who doesn't like the stuff is farcical. Just for clarity I supported the GWs switch to resin:

http://thefrontlinegamer.blogspot.com/2011/05/fine-cast-or-to-rest-of-world-resin.html

The above article was written before the 'Gandalf incident' and hopefully shows I didn't have an agenda to rip on the stuff. I'm a huge fan of resin models as a painter.

Thanks for jumping in to clear this up. Sorry to hear about the threats.

SirAngry wrote: I'm trying to keep my blog positive from now on and I'm only going to cover things I can be positive about on my blog.

That is of course your decision, but I do feel that attitude devalues your work somewhat. If you're going to offer a review of a product, but only focus on the glowing positive aspects, then it's not much of a review. At that point, the blog becomes not so much a place to get an honest opinion, but rather an exercise in "what is Sir Angry gushing about today".

Omegus wrote:

SirAngry wrote: I'm trying to keep my blog positive from now on and I'm only going to cover things I can be positive about on my blog.

That is of course your decision, but I do feel that attitude devalues your work somewhat. If you're going to offer a review of a product, but only focus on the glowing positive aspects, then it's not much of a review. At that point, the blog becomes not so much a place to get an honest opinion, but rather an exercise in "what is Sir Angry gushing about today".

Perhaps I need to be clear, if there are problems I point them out trust me. But I'm going to be covering things I'm actually enjoying. As a case in point I'm loving the Studio McVey miniatures but I've not shirked from pointing out issues I've had. However by focussing on 'positive things' I mean steering clear of GW for now because people seem to struggle with rational sensible debate where the GW are concerned, and I'd include myself in that.

very true, very true, everyone gets a little crazy in one way or another when talkin about GW

@SirAngry

Anyone making death threats againts you over GW products is not someone you need to fear....if it were to do with a political slant towards Ireland or Islam, then yeah, I'd retract my statements as well, a knock on the door from the IRA or any number of so called "extremists" are to be avoided.....but GW products.....hell, I'd have given the "threatening party" my address in the hope that they would come by.....I'm thinking your "attacker" would be 5'2", skinny, acne, balding with dandruff and in need of a serious kicking.

nothing a roundhouse kick to the face wont solve!!!

Delephont wrote:@SirAngry

Anyone making death threats againts you over GW products is not someone you need to fear....if it were to do with a political slant towards Ireland or Islam, then yeah, I'd retract my statements as well, a knock on the door from the IRA or any number of so called "extremists" are to be avoided.....but GW products.....hell, I'd have given the "threatening party" my address in the hope that they would come by.....I'm thinking your "attacker" would be 5'2", skinny, acne, balding with dandruff and in need of a serious kicking.

lol. Yeah I agree, but I just didn't need the hassle to be honest. I did actually meet somebody who was highly critical of the person who wrote 'that Gandalf' blog to my face not realising it was me. I've never seen any one backtrack quite so much in their life, especially when they realised the 'incident' had happened to me and then all of a sudden he believed that it had happened especially when other people we both knew mutually backed it up because they had seen it for themselves as well. However having repeated threats off of three people just gets a bit waring to be honest.

<broadcast mode active: remain on topic; deviations into previous experiments and/or reports do not need additional discussion in this thread>

Three wasted opportunities to let the blood flow. Khorne is very disappointed.

SirAngry wrote:

I'm the author of the actual original blog.

Welcome SirAngry!

I have to say the 'melting Gandalf' made his rounds across many forums and many threads as definitive proof that Finecast would melt to puddles of goo like a box of crayons. I feel like the misinformation and hyperbole was enough to frustrate me to buy a 33$ model and do this experiment.

I have seen some other really good experiments with toaster ovens:

http://www.dragonpainting.net/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=2396&start=10

It does confirm the ability to warp, some of the shape memory and how extreme high temps seem to do 'nothing' to the model in regards to disfiguring.

I would welcome any contributions to the thread if you would like to add as this experiment is basically a sequel to your experiences. I plan to pack all this up as an article for reference for people who have questions about finecast material.

As to status updates:

Right now, my GW case is in the trunk of my car heating up. It is not quite boiling today, only about 87, but it is hot. I am trying to find a good thermometer for inside the car. I have ones for indoor temps that don't go over 100F and ones for ovens that basically start at 200F. I will hopefully figure something out between now and Friday.

I plan to take one final photo before I leave Friday, then pictures all weekend with an update Tuesday. (no internet at the beach!)

As for other resin models:

I am kinda mixed on this... This is kinda 'resin for the masses' as many GW players buy nothing but GW so GW plastic and GW metal is all they know. If you are a resin modeler... there are dozens of types of resins that come in lots of strengths, flexibilities, and all that. Just because a resin doesn't flex when heated doesn't make it 'better' unless you are explicitly looking for resin that never bends for any reason. I feel both FW and Finecast resin is made to bend to fare better from drops bumps and snaps. I have lots of resin that will snap/shear/break if dropped or flexed... but it is also not suited for wargaming. If I had some forgeworld unpainted of similar model size, I would probably add that in.

My only two concerns are 'does it melt unreasonably' and 'does paint stripping ruin detail/model making them one and done'. I am not sure I am qualified to say it is better or worse than PP resin as that is subjective and not quite quantitative. You guys can make your own decisions on that

Nkelsch, I'm just interested to see what happens with your test. I had loads of pictures sent of bent swords etc. I don't know whether any of them were real or faked but given my own experiences with resin not just GW Finecast I have to say I believe them. I also have to say I've seen other examples of warping as well so I know it happens. Certainly with the original batch of Finecast.

Cool thread, bro! Will definitely check back in on Monday.

I still say real men test it in an oven.

Say 130, for 20 minutes

Mr Mystery wrote:I still say real men test it in an oven.

Say 130, for 20 minutes

Just don't do it in an oven hotter then that that you plan to cook meals in(without cleaning afterward). I'm not sure about you, but I don't trust any potential fumes that may contaminate my food(given I don't know how the resin would react to extreme temperatures).

<off-topic quoted text redacted --Janthkin>
Anyway, VERY nice thread! Finally some good definitive answers and I can't wait to see the case results.

Although, if you wanted a controlled condition, an oven isn't a terrible option.

The hottest a car would really get on a hot summer day closed up is 130 degrees F (typically, some extreme locations like death valley or other desert-ish locations might push hotter). A convection oven functions by circulating hot air, so might prove to be a fairly useful test box. just make sure you place it on a realistic material (not just on the metal rack) and you should be fine.

Left in there for 30 minutes - 1 hour, you should be able to qualitatively say that the material is at temperature, and if it isn't destroyed, that's the end of that. The only reason to use a car in reality is to observe the effects of:

1) direct sunlight
2) how hot an enclosed car actually gets (if we knew this, the oven would be perfectly suitable, this # is likely posted somewhere on the internet, as I'm sure people have studied/recorded it for safety purposes)

Though, I do think nkelsch's test to see how heat + pressure (the miniature case) is useful as well, and I wouldn't want my mini case in the oven.

targetawg wrote:Although, if you wanted a controlled condition, an oven isn't a terrible option.

http://www.dragonpainting.net/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=2396&start=10

This shows oven results. Shows that almost no impact at 30C but warping at 40C and wonkyness at 60C, but 90C the stuff becomes stiff again. At no stage does it melt or lose detail... just becomes bendy. Also, it shows memory where it turns to normal when cooled.

My car experiments I feel will get to at least 40C. It was bendy... just not drooping under its own weight yet.

60C and up I expect those results from many resins.

Delephont wrote:@SirAngry

Anyone making death threats againts you over GW products is not someone you need to fear....if it were to do with a political slant towards Ireland or Islam, then yeah, I'd retract my statements as well, a knock on the door from the IRA or any number of so called "extremists" are to be avoided.....but GW products.....hell, I'd have given the "threatening party" my address in the hope that they would come by.....I'm thinking your "attacker" would be 5'2", skinny, acne, balding with dandruff and in need of a serious kicking.

I can understand the caution. I'm thinking right now of that incident a few years ago, where some users of a Nintendo forum in Europe had an argument online. One of the users travelled to Germany and murdered him. Obviously the guy was a psychopath, but the point being you can never be completely sure who is sat behind the monitor.

Orlanth wrote:@nkelsch

While it is good to add an ork as a 'control' for the experiment in order to be fair to GW could you add a resin miniature from another manufacturer aswell.
While the current results are alarming have we any reason to claim the new PP plastic Sorscha or Denny would fare any better.
Maybe just maybe we are being unfair to GW over finecasts heat resistance, I wonder if PP plastic resin is superior or just that no-one was motivated to test it in the same fashion.

I'm pretty sure that the PP plastic isn't the same stuff. I've never seen any official word from PP about their plastics being plastic/resin hybrid. It seem much more like the old 'Warzone' plastic kits. The Mantic plastic/resin is almost certainly the same stuff though.

PP’s plastic in my opinion feels similar to the older GW plastic used in 3rd edition in that it is very similar in texture, colour and durability The PP plastic certainly feels a lot more rubbery and flexible than the GW plastic so I wouldn’t be surprised if there was resin added to the mix.

George Spiggott wrote:

Orlanth wrote:@nkelsch

While it is good to add an ork as a 'control' for the experiment in order to be fair to GW could you add a resin miniature from another manufacturer aswell.
While the current results are alarming have we any reason to claim the new PP plastic Sorscha or Denny would fare any better.
Maybe just maybe we are being unfair to GW over finecasts heat resistance, I wonder if PP plastic resin is superior or just that no-one was motivated to test it in the same fashion.

I'm pretty sure that the PP plastic isn't the same stuff. I've never seen any official word from PP about their plastics being plastic/resin hybrid. It seem much more like the old 'Warzone' plastic kits. The Mantic plastic/resin is almost certainly the same stuff though.

I have GW Finecast, PP Resin, and Mantic plastic-resin. All three are unique materials.

The Mantic stuff is very close to polystyrene in quality. Its rigid, and fairly strong, but allows some flex.
Of the three, I think its the best material.

PP Resin is softer than the Mantic, but still much harder than Finecast. It can be re-shaped with hot-boiling water.
I think any lack of detail people think they see is due to the lightness of color of the PP resin.
I have the battlebox Denegra model in resin, and the same in metal and they look identical with primer.

I got a Finecast Emperor's Champion, and he turned out decent.
But even after 3 Hot water-cold water dippings his sword still goes back to curved.
I think the material is shoddy and inferior.
It feels cheap. Like those knock-off Hot Wheels you get at Dollar stores.
Sure, the detail is sharp, but I dont think it can take flexing or pressure.

Sir Angry. Thank you for the time to come up here to post your comment concerning finecast.

Ooooooooooh... I have some pre-beach results, it may change what I do at the beach a little based upon these results.

Here is the temp info for my area for reference:

June 28th
Hi 94°F
Lo 74°F

June 29th
Hi 89°F
Lo 74°F

Weather.com

Two days in the trunk of my car in the foam pictures above. I will have pictures tonight!

Im sure Satan read about the oven tests and is glad to know that his finecast models should hold up okay in Hell

Kirasu wrote:Im sure Satan read the Oven tests and is glad to know that his finecast models should hold up okay in Hell

rofl